Can anyone please tell me if the liberals are claiming that no democrat has ever tried to dig dirt?

[whutTHEYsay]

I ask: "Can you name one single time a Democratic Presidential candidate agreed to meet in the hopes of acquiring opposition research directly from a foreign government regarded as adversarial to US interests, because that foreign government told them they wanted their candidate to win - to further the foreign governments goals against the US and its democratic institutions?"

First attempt at an answer:

12icer, post: 17734158

The name of the country is Ukraine, and the GOVERNMENT ADMITTED PUBLICLY that the dnc actively requested their help to discredit Trump, and they actively worked for the clinton campaign

The problem is no such DNC interaction took place and that is why it is not in the news. If the rightwing propaganda machine has nothing to support this baloney then there can't be anything there.

 

[bripat9643]

Dearest hypocrites- WHERE is your OUTRAGE over Hillary's collusion with Ukraine that went on for MONTHS and involved payments?

You guys have overplayed the Hillary card. I don't care anymore. Investigate her yet again. Throw enough mud and maybe some will finally stick. What Hillary may have done doesn't excuse shit the Donald did.

Trump hasn't done anything, moron.

 

[Borillar]

Dearest hypocrites- WHERE is your OUTRAGE over Hillary's collusion with Ukraine that went on for MONTHS and involved payments?

You guys have overplayed the Hillary card. I don't care anymore. Investigate her yet again. Throw enough mud and maybe some will finally stick. What Hillary may have done doesn't excuse shit the Donald did.

Trump hasn't done anything, moron.

Neither did Hillary, dupe.

 

[bripat9643]

bripat9643, post: 17733858

The difference between what you wrote and what I said you wrote is indistinguishable from zero

You lied. "Can you name one single time a Democratic Presidential candidate agreed to meet in the hopes of acquiring opposition research directly from a foreign government regarded as adversarial to US interests, because that foreign government told them they wanted their candidate to win - to further the foreign governments goals against the US and its democratic institutions?"

In DJTjr's case he agreed to meet expecting dirt on Hillary from the Kremlin. The "Russian Government" is specifically named in the emails setting up the meeting.

So playing stupid is your only response since no Democratic Party campaign has ever made such an anti-American solicitation of a foreign governments illegal and immoral direct assistance to help them defeat a Republican.

We have the proof. DJTjr's email and his admission he wanted to meet with a representative of the RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT wanting to assist the Orangutrump's campaign.

Your question is so narrowly tailored that only one situation could possibly fit it. On top of that, it contains a number of lies. No got opposition research directly from a foreign government. No one in the Russian government told Trump they wanted him to win. No one mentioned Russian goals against the US and its democratic institutions.

In short, you're just a lying douche bag.

 

[bripat9643]

Dearest hypocrites- WHERE is your OUTRAGE over Hillary's collusion with Ukraine that went on for MONTHS and involved payments?

You guys have overplayed the Hillary card. I don't care anymore. Investigate her yet again. Throw enough mud and maybe some will finally stick. What Hillary may have done doesn't excuse shit the Donald did.

Trump hasn't done anything, moron.

Neither did Hillary, dupe.

She sure as hell did. Comey listed her crimes and then let her off by lying about the statute.

Remember, I'm not some snowflake. I'm not required to believe your lies and idiocies.

 

[Borillar]

Dearest hypocrites- WHERE is your OUTRAGE over Hillary's collusion with Ukraine that went on for MONTHS and involved payments?

You guys have overplayed the Hillary card. I don't care anymore. Investigate her yet again. Throw enough mud and maybe some will finally stick. What Hillary may have done doesn't excuse shit the Donald did.

Trump hasn't done anything, moron.

Neither did Hillary, dupe.

She sure as hell did. Comey listed her crimes and then let her off by lying about the statute.

Remember, I'm not some snowflake. I'm not required to believe your lies and idiocies.

Years and years, investigation after investigation. Millions of dollars spent. Charges? Zero. Convictions? Zero. Indictments? Zero. Just a huge container ship full of nothing-burgers. But we're supposed to believe every nutcase conspiracy theory about Hillary while ignoring everything happening with Trump. Sounds like you're the one short on truth and long on BS.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

bripat9643, post: 17734498

Your question is so narrowly tailored that only one situation could possibly fit it.

It defines the unique Trump situtiin and event.?No Denocrat has done anything close. Ukraine is not close even if it were true.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

bripat9643, post: 17734498

On top of that, it contains a number of lies. No got opposition research directly from a foreign government.

Point to the part of my question where I said they got opposition research from that meeting. It's no lie since I never said it. You must resort to lying.


"Can you name one single time a Democratic Presidential candidate agreed to meet in the hopes of acquiring opposition research directly from a foreign government regarded as adversarial to US interests, because that foreign government told them they wanted their candidate to win - to further the foreign governments goals against the US and its democratic institutions?

Now apologize. I did not lie.

 

[JoeB131]

Against the law? Which law? Where is the evidence?

The Logan Act and the Campaign Finance Law.

The evidence is Junior's Emails.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

bripat9643, post: 17734498

No one in the Russian government told Trump they wanted him to win.

The email invite and coordination defined therein stated the Russian Government wanted to help Trump win by providing dirt on Hillary.

Are you saying it is not in the enail?

 

[JoeB131]

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

Um, no, people are prosecuted all the time for changing hands for information.

Hey, remember when you guys wanted to prosecute Hillary for using the wrong kind of email that someone might have hacked? I do.

 

[martybegan]

Again, we are discussing the concept of value of information. You just can't decide value means one thing with regards to this law, then ignore that definition when it comes to another law.

Again, we are discussing the concept of value of information. You just can't decide value means one thing with regards to this law, then ignore that definition when it comes to another law.

there is value in use, and value in exchange...

I think it says the meaning of value, depends on each individual case....

AS example:
IF it's just talk, with no proof in writing presented....That could be worthless to them....if it was the private emails of Hillary Clinton given to them, then those emails have value in use.... imo

The word value has many meanings and may be used in different senses. Because value is usually a relative term, its true meaning must be determined by the context in which it appears.

Value sometimes expresses the inherent usefulness of an object and sometimes the power of purchasing other goods with it. The first is called value in use, the latter value in exchange. Value in use is the utility of an object in satisfying, directly or indirectly, the needs or desires of human beings. Value in exchange is the amount of commodities, commonly represented by money, for which a thing can be exchanged in an open market. This concept is usually referred to as market value.

Courts have frequently used the word value without any clear indication of whether it referred to value in use or market value.



---------------------------------------------------------

noun
Value is the worth in goods, services or money of an object or person.

1. An example of value is the amount given by an appraiser after appraising a house.
2. An example of value is how much a consultant's input is worth to a committee.

You can quote dictionary definitions until the cows come home, it doesn't make it a legal concept. The law clearly meant things like cars and jewelry and property. Its how items of value have been interpreted before and will continue to be interpreted.

But feel free to keep up this Quixotic quest to think this is the one final "gotcha" moment, like all the other final gotcha moments.

Marty, what;s the reason for the law?

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

It does not say of cash value....it says value...and opposition research does have a cash value, in many more ways than one, in this situation....

and the MAIN purpose, is NOT to have any foreign government's influence in our Democracy, and with our sacred voting process...we citizens want to believe and know, that it is our own American voters that choose without the influence of a foreign government. and so that American campaigns or elected officials do not OWE a foreign government allegiance for their help....right now, we all can legitimately ask, what is President Trump doing or going to do, to pay them back? this is NOT GOOD for our Democracy.

No amount of money in the world could pay for all of the help the Russians gave Donald Trump, and it appears, he and his team, accepted with open arms...they loved it....especially later in the summer...

Still trying to stretch for a gotcha moment.

So if information has value, and CNN reports that most of Europe preferred Hillary over Trump, are they then guilty of breaking this law?

 

[iceberg]

the bottom line is people look for dirt.

everyone here is looking for it. on hillary, on trump, on obama...we're just a dirt looking society so i fail to get all worked up when "russia" comes to trumps team to say they got something. i don't think this is a willingness to work with russia anymore than anyone who would have had dirt. if a german/italian/chinese lawyer said they had dirt i think his answer would have been the same. "LAY IT ON ME!"

and for all those who get lost in the unfairness of the trump camp to do this, let's go back to the ukraine actually helping hillary, not just giving some dirt. i fail to see how a phone call from a russian lawyer can bend you over screaming but the other doesn't register.

if the act itself is the issue, you're upset at both. if only 1, agenda. that's just how i see it. if only upset about 1 side then no sense in talking cause it will go nowhere when you allow actions only for 1 side. that's why we're in this bag of crap we're all in today.

 

[rightwinger]

No Democratic president in history has ever had a hostile foreign government break the law to get them elected

No Democratic president in history has ever had key campaign members meet repeatedly with that hostile government

No Democratic president in history has ever had key members of their family actively pursue participating in that illegal action

You can't say no Democrat in history.

Remember, before the middle 1960's, Democrats were the conservative confederate "white" party. Just like Republicans are now.

Still no candidate before Trump met with a hostile government to obtain secrets to help get elected

ROFL! You're forgetting Ted Kennedy, moron. And labeling Russia a "hostile government" is purely a snowflake pretension. There's no official designation of "hostile." Russia is no more "hostile" than France.

A government that uses illegal means to influence elections is a hostile government

 

[Care4all]

there is value in use, and value in exchange...

I think it says the meaning of value, depends on each individual case....

AS example:
IF it's just talk, with no proof in writing presented....That could be worthless to them....if it was the private emails of Hillary Clinton given to them, then those emails have value in use.... imo

The word value has many meanings and may be used in different senses. Because value is usually a relative term, its true meaning must be determined by the context in which it appears.

Value sometimes expresses the inherent usefulness of an object and sometimes the power of purchasing other goods with it. The first is called value in use, the latter value in exchange. Value in use is the utility of an object in satisfying, directly or indirectly, the needs or desires of human beings. Value in exchange is the amount of commodities, commonly represented by money, for which a thing can be exchanged in an open market. This concept is usually referred to as market value.

Courts have frequently used the word value without any clear indication of whether it referred to value in use or market value.



---------------------------------------------------------

noun
Value is the worth in goods, services or money of an object or person.

1. An example of value is the amount given by an appraiser after appraising a house.
2. An example of value is how much a consultant's input is worth to a committee.

You can quote dictionary definitions until the cows come home, it doesn't make it a legal concept. The law clearly meant things like cars and jewelry and property. Its how items of value have been interpreted before and will continue to be interpreted.

But feel free to keep up this Quixotic quest to think this is the one final "gotcha" moment, like all the other final gotcha moments.

Marty, what;s the reason for the law?

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

It does not say of cash value....it says value...and opposition research does have a cash value, in many more ways than one, in this situation....

and the MAIN purpose, is NOT to have any foreign government's influence in our Democracy, and with our sacred voting process...we citizens want to believe and know, that it is our own American voters that choose without the influence of a foreign government. and so that American campaigns or elected officials do not OWE a foreign government allegiance for their help....right now, we all can legitimately ask, what is President Trump doing or going to do, to pay them back? this is NOT GOOD for our Democracy.

No amount of money in the world could pay for all of the help the Russians gave Donald Trump, and it appears, he and his team, accepted with open arms...they loved it....especially later in the summer...

Still trying to stretch for a gotcha moment.

So if information has value, and CNN reports that most of Europe preferred Hillary over Trump, are they then guilty of breaking this law?

What is wrong with you? CNN IS NOT a FOREIGN government trying to get Kompromat....

PLEASE STOP with your twisting and turning and spinning of the circumstance and the ACTUAL LAW on the books about foreign governments we are actually discussing.

Donny jr and Kushner and Manafort were played at best and as the Russians have a term for....useful idiots or useful fools. This meeting was EXTREMELY successful as far as Russian Intelligence agents are concerned!

NOW we need to find out what was actually said in this meeting and the NEXT meeting the Russians got the ok to set up with them.

 

[martybegan]

You can quote dictionary definitions until the cows come home, it doesn't make it a legal concept. The law clearly meant things like cars and jewelry and property. Its how items of value have been interpreted before and will continue to be interpreted.

But feel free to keep up this Quixotic quest to think this is the one final "gotcha" moment, like all the other final gotcha moments.

Marty, what;s the reason for the law?

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

It does not say of cash value....it says value...and opposition research does have a cash value, in many more ways than one, in this situation....

and the MAIN purpose, is NOT to have any foreign government's influence in our Democracy, and with our sacred voting process...we citizens want to believe and know, that it is our own American voters that choose without the influence of a foreign government. and so that American campaigns or elected officials do not OWE a foreign government allegiance for their help....right now, we all can legitimately ask, what is President Trump doing or going to do, to pay them back? this is NOT GOOD for our Democracy.

No amount of money in the world could pay for all of the help the Russians gave Donald Trump, and it appears, he and his team, accepted with open arms...they loved it....especially later in the summer...

Still trying to stretch for a gotcha moment.

So if information has value, and CNN reports that most of Europe preferred Hillary over Trump, are they then guilty of breaking this law?

What is wrong with you? CNN IS NOT a FOREIGN government trying to get Kompromat....

PLEASE STOP with your twisting and turning and spinning of the circumstance and the ACTUAL LAW on the books about foreign governments we are actually discussing.

Donny jr and Kushner and Manafort were played at best and as the Russians have a term for....useful idiots or useful fools. This meeting was EXTREMELY successful as far as Russian Intelligence agents are concerned!

NOW we need to find out what was actually said in this meeting and the NEXT meeting the Russians set up with them.

CNN's source is foreign leaders, who have stated or implied that they would prefer Hillary over Trump. That is valuable information CNN and their ilk then broadcast to the american people. By your definition of value, CNN just worked with foreign operatives to disseminate something of value.

What if a Turkish agent gave information to the DNC regarding some theoretical Trump shenanigans at a resort in Turkey? Is the DNC supposed to ignore that information?

And you know about Russian Intelligence's views on all this how, Comrade?

Again, Windmill, Lance, CHARGE!!!!!

 

[Care4all]

Marty, what;s the reason for the law?

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

It does not say of cash value....it says value...and opposition research does have a cash value, in many more ways than one, in this situation....

and the MAIN purpose, is NOT to have any foreign government's influence in our Democracy, and with our sacred voting process...we citizens want to believe and know, that it is our own American voters that choose without the influence of a foreign government. and so that American campaigns or elected officials do not OWE a foreign government allegiance for their help....right now, we all can legitimately ask, what is President Trump doing or going to do, to pay them back? this is NOT GOOD for our Democracy.

No amount of money in the world could pay for all of the help the Russians gave Donald Trump, and it appears, he and his team, accepted with open arms...they loved it....especially later in the summer...

Still trying to stretch for a gotcha moment.

So if information has value, and CNN reports that most of Europe preferred Hillary over Trump, are they then guilty of breaking this law?

What is wrong with you? CNN IS NOT a FOREIGN government trying to get Kompromat....

PLEASE STOP with your twisting and turning and spinning of the circumstance and the ACTUAL LAW on the books about foreign governments we are actually discussing.

Donny jr and Kushner and Manafort were played at best and as the Russians have a term for....useful idiots or useful fools. This meeting was EXTREMELY successful as far as Russian Intelligence agents are concerned!

NOW we need to find out what was actually said in this meeting and the NEXT meeting the Russians set up with them.

CNN's source is foreign leaders, who have stated or implied that they would prefer Hillary over Trump. That is valuable information CNN and their ilk then broadcast to the american people. By your definition of value, CNN just worked with foreign operatives to disseminate something of value.

What if a Turkish agent gave information to the DNC regarding some theoretical Trump shenanigans at a resort in Turkey? Is the DNC supposed to ignore that information?

And you know about Russian Intelligence's views on all this how, Comrade?

Again, Windmill, Lance, CHARGE!!!!!

I know about it by listening to the news and reading the news, where our experts on the Russians have discussed it....you should try to change the channel and inform yourself Marty.

the law is NOT because someone helped a campaign vs some other entity helping a campaign....

The purpose of the law is to not allow foreign governments have INFLUENCE over our elected officials without our knowledge, influenced gained by compromising situations, that the campaigns hide from the American people due to embarrassment in the least....

Your deflection of trying to make this simply in to opposition research with anyone, vs a foreign government ...adversarial or friendly, is a good impression of what Trump does, continually...deflect deflect try to confuse and deflect again....

PLEASE, spare me this song and a dance....you are SMARTER than Trump, and should know better and in the least know when you are simply playing a pawn....which is quite unbecoming when coming from someone with brains, like you!

 

[Care4all]

Marty,

Foreign governments influencing would have the whole backing of their intelligence agencies and Military intelligence and intel they have collected for decades, and all of their spies and diplomats at their fingertips to use...

An official foreign employee working in a government job or embassy etc.... helping a campaign get already public information IS NOT THE SAME, and would not meet the level the Law covers...

 

[martybegan]

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

It does not say of cash value....it says value...and opposition research does have a cash value, in many more ways than one, in this situation....

and the MAIN purpose, is NOT to have any foreign government's influence in our Democracy, and with our sacred voting process...we citizens want to believe and know, that it is our own American voters that choose without the influence of a foreign government. and so that American campaigns or elected officials do not OWE a foreign government allegiance for their help....right now, we all can legitimately ask, what is President Trump doing or going to do, to pay them back? this is NOT GOOD for our Democracy.

No amount of money in the world could pay for all of the help the Russians gave Donald Trump, and it appears, he and his team, accepted with open arms...they loved it....especially later in the summer...

Still trying to stretch for a gotcha moment.

So if information has value, and CNN reports that most of Europe preferred Hillary over Trump, are they then guilty of breaking this law?

What is wrong with you? CNN IS NOT a FOREIGN government trying to get Kompromat....

PLEASE STOP with your twisting and turning and spinning of the circumstance and the ACTUAL LAW on the books about foreign governments we are actually discussing.

Donny jr and Kushner and Manafort were played at best and as the Russians have a term for....useful idiots or useful fools. This meeting was EXTREMELY successful as far as Russian Intelligence agents are concerned!

NOW we need to find out what was actually said in this meeting and the NEXT meeting the Russians set up with them.

CNN's source is foreign leaders, who have stated or implied that they would prefer Hillary over Trump. That is valuable information CNN and their ilk then broadcast to the american people. By your definition of value, CNN just worked with foreign operatives to disseminate something of value.

What if a Turkish agent gave information to the DNC regarding some theoretical Trump shenanigans at a resort in Turkey? Is the DNC supposed to ignore that information?

And you know about Russian Intelligence's views on all this how, Comrade?

Again, Windmill, Lance, CHARGE!!!!!

I know about it by listening to the news and reading the news, where our experts on the Russians have discussed it....you should try to change the channel and inform yourself Marty.

the law is NOT because someone helped a campaign vs some other entity helping a campaign....

The purpose of the law is to not allow foreign governments have INFLUENCE over our elected officials without our knowledge, influenced gained by compromising situations, that the campaigns hide from the American people due to embarrassment in the least....

Your deflection of trying to make this simply in to opposition research with anyone, vs a foreign government ...adversarial or friendly, is a good impression of what Trump does, continually...deflect deflect try to confuse and deflect again....

PLEASE, spare me this song and a dance....you are SMARTER than Trump, and should know better and in the least know when you are simply playing a pawn....which is quite unbecoming when coming from someone with brains, like you!

I noticed you didn't discuss my 2nd point, why are you ignoring it?

And you are reaching for anything that remotely looks like dirt, even though I have posted reviews by lawyers saying that there is NOTHING there that even approaches the value implied by the law. It references money. In cases like that value implies other things of actual value, again, cars, property, jewelry.

 

[martybegan]

The reason was to prevent outside influence on elections via monetary or cash value equivalents.

Any restriction on information changing hands probably has 1st amendment issues, a Bentley doesn't.

Um, no, people are prosecuted all the time for changing hands for information.

Hey, remember when you guys wanted to prosecute Hillary for using the wrong kind of email that someone might have hacked? I do.

usually that information itself is illegal, such as classified materials.

And that was about classified materials.