Calling Out Alang1216: The God of Abraham is a myth

[alang1216]

Oh. So you believe they embellished Jesus rising from the dead so they could convert pagans and Jews to Christianity?

Yes

Did they believe Jesus rose from the dead?

Yes

 

[alang1216]

Instructed by who?

Jesus (maybe), his apostles and followers, the oral traditions, and later by the gospels.

 

[ding]

Yes


Yes

Jesus (maybe), his apostles and followers, the oral traditions, and later by the gospels.

So it was a conspiracy.

 

[alang1216]

So it was a conspiracy.

A conspiracy to spread Christianity? Sure. Organized? Not so much.

 

[ding]

A conspiracy to spread Christianity? Sure. Organized? Not so much.

Same difference. According to your narrative Jesus was worshipped as God because someone started a rumor that he rose from the dead when he didn't. From that point on the conspirators started piling on embellishments (which they knew were not true) to make Christianity more attractive for the express purpose of "selling" Christianity to unsuspecting dupes for the express purpose of converting them into Christians.

Is that about right?

 

[ding]

A conspiracy to spread Christianity? Sure. Organized? Not so much.

How could it have not been organized? They were selling their religion to unsuspecting dupes. They used embellishment (which they knew was not true) to make the "product" more attractive to Jews and pagans.

 

[alang1216]

Same difference. According to your narrative Jesus was worshipped as God

That is YOUR narrative, not mine.

because someone started a rumor that he rose from the dead when he didn't. From that point on the conspirators started piling on embellishments (which they knew were not true) to make Christianity more attractive for the express purpose of "selling" Christianity to unsuspecting dupes for the express purpose of converting them into Christians.

Is that about right?

You are imposing your values on people that didn't share them. Historical accuracy was never as important as the underlying theology. There are many examples, some I've pointed out, that you have ignored.

How could it have not been organized? They were selling their religion to unsuspecting dupes. They used embellishment (which they knew was not true) to make the "product" more attractive to Jews and pagans.

Since there was no written texts for the first Christians, most were illiterate anyway, every telling of the story must have undergone a subtle change. Over the years these changes accumulated.

 

[ding]

That is YOUR narrative, not mine.

Feel free to put together a comprehensive narrative. God knows I've been begging you do that for some time now.

 

[ding]

You are imposing your values on people that didn't share them. Historical accuracy was never as important as the underlying theology. There are many examples, some I've pointed out, that you have ignored.

Actually I'm trying to play back what you have told me. Maybe you should put together a complete narrative.

 

[ding]

Since there was no written texts for the first Christians, most were illiterate anyway, every telling of the story must have undergone a subtle change. Over the years these changes accumulated

There's tons of texts and none of them match the narrative I've pieced together from you posts.

 

[ding]

.

That is YOUR narrative, not mine.


You are imposing your values on people that didn't share them. Historical accuracy was never as important as the underlying theology. There are many examples, some I've pointed out, that you have ignored.


Since there was no written texts for the first Christians, most were illiterate anyway, every telling of the story must have undergone a subtle change. Over the years these changes accumulated.

Here's the thing, you have described a conspiracy to commit fraud. Which is a secret plan to do something unlawful or harmful.

 

[ding]

alang1216 The miracle stories appear in various early sources and literary forms, including Mark, Q, and independent material in Matthew and Luke. The widespread attestation of Jesus as a miracle worker soon after his lifetime makes total fabrication highly unlikely.

The Gospels portray Jesus's ministry and miracles as public events, witnessed by his disciples, large crowds, and even his opponents. If the disciples had invented these stories, the people of the time would have likely disregarded their preaching.

External sources corroborate that Jesus was known as a miracle worker. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that Jesus performed "startling deeds," and the 2nd-century pagan philosopher Celsus acknowledged Jesus's miracles but attributed them to sorcery.

The earliest accounts offer a consistent portrayal of Jesus performing specific types of miracles, such as healings, exorcisms, and nature miracles, suggesting a foundational tradition rather than later, haphazard additions.

 

[alang1216]

Feel free to put together a comprehensive narrative. God knows I've been begging you do that for some time now.

Comprehensive narrative of Jesus' life and death.

1. Jesus preached the end of times
2. He claimed he would be placed at the head of the new world order
3. He was turned over to the Roman authorities
   1. He was charged with treason because this 'new world order' didn't include Romans at the top
   2. He was found guilty and crucified
4. His followers were convinced he was the messiah and the end was near
5. He was rumored to have appeared after death
6. They began preaching and converting some Jews but mostly pagans
7. The converts began preaching what they understood of Jesus
8. The few stories there were of Jesus were embellished by the converts to:
   1. Convince Jews he was the messiah they expected (that generally failed)
   2. Convince pagans that Jesus' God was more powerful than their gods (that succeeded spectacularly once it was accepted that pagans didn't have to become Jews to become Christians)
9. Decades later the oral stories were collected into the Gospels by different authors from different places. Each had heard different accounts and had access to some common sources.

 

[ding]

Comprehensive narrative of Jesus' life and death.

1. Jesus preached the end of times
2. He claimed he would be placed at the head of the new world order
3. He was turned over to the Roman authorities
   1. He was charged with treason because this 'new world order' didn't include Romans at the top
   2. He was found guilty and crucified
4. His followers were convinced he was the messiah and the end was near
5. He was rumored to have appeared after death
6. They began preaching and converting some Jews but mostly pagans
7. The converts began preaching what they understood of Jesus
8. The few stories there were of Jesus were embellished by the converts to:
   1. Convince Jews he was the messiah they expected (that generally failed)
   2. Convince pagans that Jesus' God was more powerful than their gods (that succeeded spectacularly once it was accepted that pagans didn't have to become Jews to become Christians)
9. Decades later the oral stories were collected into the Gospels by different authors from different places. Each had heard different accounts and had access to some common sources.

What about all of the miracles he performed?

 

[ding]

Comprehensive narrative of Jesus' life and death.

1. Jesus preached the end of times
2. He claimed he would be placed at the head of the new world order
3. He was turned over to the Roman authorities
   1. He was charged with treason because this 'new world order' didn't include Romans at the top
   2. He was found guilty and crucified
4. His followers were convinced he was the messiah and the end was near
5. He was rumored to have appeared after death
6. They began preaching and converting some Jews but mostly pagans
7. The converts began preaching what they understood of Jesus
8. The few stories there were of Jesus were embellished by the converts to:
   1. Convince Jews he was the messiah they expected (that generally failed)
   2. Convince pagans that Jesus' God was more powerful than their gods (that succeeded spectacularly once it was accepted that pagans didn't have to become Jews to become Christians)
9. Decades later the oral stories were collected into the Gospels by different authors from different places. Each had heard different accounts and had access to some common sources.

Why was his tomb empty?

 

[alang1216]

Here's the thing, you have described a conspiracy to commit fraud.

You consider embellishing, editing, and adding things to the narrative to be fraud the people doing it would not agree. Several of Paul's epistles were clearly not written to Paul and do not reflect his theology. If you consider that fraud, it is clear it happened. The birth stories are clearly different, if you consider that fraud, it is clear it happened.

Which is a secret plan to do something unlawful or harmful.

What laws? Do you consider converting people to Jesus to be harmful? I'm sure they didn't.

There was no secret plan or conspiracy, just many followers headed in the same direction doing what they thought best.

 

[alang1216]

What about all of the miracles he performed?

Embellishments.

 

[alang1216]

Why was his tomb empty?

Was it? Good story but impossible to prove or disprove.

 

[ding]

You consider embellishing, editing, and adding things to the narrative to be fraud the people doing it would not agree. Several of Paul's epistles were clearly not written to Paul and do not reflect his theology. If you consider that fraud, it is clear it happened. The birth stories are clearly different, if you consider that fraud, it is clear it happened.


What laws? Do you consider converting people to Jesus to be harmful? I'm sure they didn't.

There was no secret plan or conspiracy, just many followers headed in the same direction doing what they thought best.

Yes, because it a very elaborate narrative. There's no way it was embellishment because the point of the accounts were the miracles he performed. Not to mention he was widely known as a miracle worker and was accused of sorcery.

You don't think it's harmful to commit fraud? I do.

Of course your narrative requires a secret plan. According to your narrative almost everything written were lies.

 

[ding]

Was it? Good story but impossible to prove or disprove.

Not really. There are only two options. Either it is exactly as described or someone took his dead body. If it had been the Jews, they would have pointed to his dead body and say, see, he's still dead. If it had been his disciples it would prove a secret plan to commit a conspiracy.

So I come back to there are only two options; either it's true or a conspiracy to commit fraud.