Calling Out Alang1216: The God of Abraham is a myth

[ding]

Untrue. You only think you offer cohesive arguments because you repeat the same mantra over and over and ignore anything to the contrary. That is not cohesive, it is delusional.

You can’t explain the physical evidence. Why do all these manuscripts exist if what they say are blatantly false. Who perpetrated those lies? Why would they do so? Who benefited from it?

Start from when and why Jesus was worshipped as God and explain why these texts exist if they are lies.

 

[alang1216]

There’s nothing dishonest with my argument. Jesus was worshipped as God after he rose from the dead. That’s what history recorded. You have yet to explain when or why Jesus was worshipped as God. Your argument is not everyone did it. So what? Your argument was the apostles were confused. Yet you can’t explain the massive amount of texts that exist supporting that Jesus was worshipped as God because he performed miracles and rose from the dead.

Your 'massive amount of texts' are imperfect copies of a handful of original manuscripts, some lost, some forged, some added to later.

 

[alang1216]

Of course it’s logical. Who do you think Jesus was referring to when he was accused of blasphemy.

The Son of Man.

The immaculate conception is a miracle just like the miracles performed by Jesus and his rising from the dead.

The immaculate conception is a myth based on a mistranslation.

 

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Your 'massive amount of texts' are imperfect copies of a handful of original manuscripts, some lost, some forged, some added to later.

Great. Then craft a narrative that explains how that was used to trick innocent people into worshipping Jesus as God. Make sure to include when they started worshipping Jesus as God and why they worshipped Jesus as God.

 

[ding]

The Son of Man.


The immaculate conception is a myth based on a mistranslation.

Jesus used the title "Son of Man" to emphasize his dual nature as both fully human and the divine Messianic figure prophesied in the Book of Daniel. The phrase functions as an idiom for "human person" but also signifies the cosmic judge who would establish God's eternal kingdom after suffering and death. By using this title, Jesus connected his suffering, death, and triumphant reign to the prophecy of Daniel, highlighting his role as the anointed delivererwho would rule the world as God's chosen Messiah.

The first Christians did not believe the virgin birth was a myth. They didn’t believe Mary’s perpetual virginity was a myth. They didn’t believe Mary was without sin was a myth. And they didn’t believe Mary was bodily assumed into heaven were a myth. All of these beliefs were established by the same people who witnessed the miracles performed by Christ and the risen Christ.

 

[alang1216]

Which ones are making the claims Jesus made?

Jesus made very few claims so you must be referring to what others said about him. People who never met him nor witnessed anything he said or did.

He was put to death for performing miracles (sorcery) and for making himself equal to God (blasphemy).

No he wasn't, Romans reserved crucifixion for political and similar crimes, not for religious crimes.

 

[alang1216]

Jesus used the title "Son of Man" to emphasize his dual nature as both fully human and the divine Messianic figure prophesied in the Book of Daniel. The phrase functions as an idiom for "human person" but also signifies the cosmic judge who would establish God's eternal kingdom after suffering and death. By using this title, Jesus connected his suffering, death, and triumphant reign to the prophecy of Daniel, highlighting his role as the anointed delivererwho would rule the world as God's chosen Messiah.

I think we've hit a brick wall. You believe your version of the accounts of Jesus is correct but I don't agree. He said, she said. Time to move on.

The first Christians did not believe the virgin birth was a myth. They didn’t believe Mary’s perpetual virginity was a myth. They didn’t believe Mary was without sin was a myth. And they didn’t believe Mary was bodily assumed into heaven were a myth. All of these beliefs were established by the same people who witnessed the miracles performed by Christ and the risen Christ.

You ask these questions but can't answer why most people in other cultures at other times believed their religious beliefs were as real as Christians do today.

 

[ding]

Jesus made very few claims so you must be referring to what others said about him. People who never met him nor witnessed anything he said or did.

You were arguing that because faith healers exist today what Jesus did wasn’t that unusual. At least that’s what I thought you were arguing. It seems now you want to take my argument that there are no faith healers who claimed they were equal to God and turn it into something else.

Not only did Jesus make the claim that he was equal to God, he behaved like he was equal to God. So much so that he was accused of blasphemy multiple times and would have been stoned had he not vanished.

You still aren’t getting it. You need to provide an alternate explanation for why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God. Because their worshiping Jesus as God is historical confirmation of the Gospels. So you need to explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

 

[ding]

No he wasn't, Romans reserved crucifixion for political and similar crimes, not for religious crimes.

That’s how the Gospels recorded it and that makes sense why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God. So if you think they are a bunch of lies you need to explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

Simple enough, right?

 

[ding]

I think we've hit a brick wall. You believe your version of the accounts of Jesus is correct but I don't agree. He said, she said. Time to move on.

That’s because you can’t explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

 

[ding]

You ask these questions but can't answer why most people in other cultures at other times believed their religious beliefs were as real as Christians do today.

Why does that matter? What does that have to do with the first Christians worshipping Jesus as God, the written manuscripts explaining why Jesus was worshipped as God or the Babylonian Talmud confirming the written manuscripts that Jesus was put to death for performing miracles (sorcery) and claiming to be equal to God (blasphemy)?

 

[alang1216]

You were arguing that because faith healers exist today what Jesus did wasn’t that unusual. At least that’s what I thought you were arguing. It seems now you want to take my argument that there are no faith healers who claimed they were equal to God and turn it into something else.

People can claim anything and anything can be claimed by others.

Not only did Jesus make the claim that he was equal to God, he behaved like he was equal to God.

Chapter and verse please. I don't recall.

You still aren’t getting it. You need to provide an alternate explanation for why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God. Because their worshiping Jesus as God is historical confirmation of the Gospels. So you need to explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

It is you who don't get it. You might if you read Wright and Ehrman. It doesn't matter how it happened, it only matters that it has happened many other times to many other people.

 

[ding]

People can claim anything and anything can be claimed by others.

That’s why corroborating evidence is required like:

The first Christians worshipping Jesus as God, the written manuscripts explaining why Jesus was worshipped as God and the Babylonian Talmud confirming the written manuscripts that Jesus was put to death for performing miracles (sorcery) and claiming to be equal to God (blasphemy).

 

[ding]

Chapter and verse please. I don't recall.

I’m not going to waste my time compiling the myriad of ways in which Jesus did it but I will let google AI answer it.

Jesus's behavior demonstrated equality with God by claiming divine authority to forgive sins, perform miracles like raising the dead, walking on water, and commanding demons, all of which are actions attributed to God alone. His explicit statements, such as "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and "the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do" (John 5:19), along with his acceptance of worship from his followers, further indicated his divine nature and equivalence to God, as the Jews at the time understood these claims to be assertions of divinity.

Claims to Divine Authority

• Forgiving Sins: In Matthew 9, Jesus forgave a paralytic man's sins, a prerogative reserved for God, and then healed the man to prove his divine authority.
• Performing Miracles: Jesus performed numerous miracles, such as walking on water, raising the dead, and commanding demons, which demonstrated his unique power over life, nature, and spiritual forces, according to Holy Joys.

Statements of Oneness with the Father

• Equality with God: Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), and the Jews at the time understood this to be a claim of divinity and equality with God, attempting to stone him for blasphemy, notes Christianity Stack Exchange.
• Shared Actions: In John 5:19, Jesus stated, "the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do," which, according to FaithGateway Store, implied his equality with the Father since only God can perform such works, such as raising the dead.

Acceptance of Worship

• Receiving Worship: Jesus accepted the worship of his followers, such as Thomas's declaration of him as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), which would have been blasphemous for a mere human to receive.

Unique Nature and Character

• Pre-existence: Jesus claimed to have glory with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), and his followers recognized him as the "image of God" (Col. 1:15) and the "Divine Word that became flesh" (John 1:1, 14).
• Divine Privileges: He possessed divine attributes like everlasting life and the power to give life to the dead.

 

[ding]

It is you who don't get it. You might if you read Wright and Ehrman. It doesn't matter how it happened, it only matters that it has happened many other times to many other people.

I don’t know what good that would do since you have read them and cant explain when Jesus first began being worshipped as God, why Jesus was first worshipped as god and why so many false narratives exist explaining why Jesus was worshipped as God. You can’t tell me who was responsible for it. You can’t tell me why they did it and you can’t tell me how they benefited from it.

 

[alang1216]

That’s how the Gospels recorded it and that makes sense why the first Christians worshipped Jesus as God. So if you think they are a bunch of lies you need to explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

Simple enough, right?

That’s because you can’t explain who started the lies, why they started the lies and show how they benefited from those lies.

Why does that matter? What does that have to do with the first Christians worshipping Jesus as God, the written manuscripts explaining why Jesus was worshipped as God or the Babylonian Talmud confirming the written manuscripts that Jesus was put to death for performing miracles (sorcery) and claiming to be equal to God (blasphemy)?

Asked and answered, doesn't matter if you don't like my answers. Move on or call it a draw. I'll obviously never convince you and you have not been able to convince me.

 

[ding]

Asked and answered, doesn't matter if you don't like my answers. Move on or call it a draw. I'll obviously never convince you and you have not been able to convince me.

But you haven’t. Because you can’t.

 

[alang1216]

I’m not going to waste my time compiling the myriad of ways in which Jesus did it but I will let google AI answer it.

Jesus's behavior demonstrated equality with God by claiming divine authority to forgive sins, perform miracles like raising the dead, walking on water, and commanding demons, all of which are actions attributed to God alone. His explicit statements, such as "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) and "the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do" (John 5:19), along with his acceptance of worship from his followers, further indicated his divine nature and equivalence to God, as the Jews at the time understood these claims to be assertions of divinity.

John was the last Gospel to be written and the only one claiming divinity for Jesus. Why didn't the older ones do the same? Because his divinity evolved.

Claims to Divine Authority

• Forgiving Sins: In Matthew 9, Jesus forgave a paralytic man's sins, a prerogative reserved for God, and then healed the man to prove his divine authority.
• Performing Miracles: Jesus performed numerous miracles, such as walking on water, raising the dead, and commanding demons, which demonstrated his unique power over life, nature, and spiritual forces, according to Holy Joys.

Statements of Oneness with the Father

• Equality with God: Jesus declared, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30), and the Jews at the time understood this to be a claim of divinity and equality with God, attempting to stone him for blasphemy, notes Christianity Stack Exchange.
• Shared Actions: In John 5:19, Jesus stated, "the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do," which, according to FaithGateway Store, implied his equality with the Father since only God can perform such works, such as raising the dead.

Acceptance of Worship

• Receiving Worship: Jesus accepted the worship of his followers, such as Thomas's declaration of him as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), which would have been blasphemous for a mere human to receive.

Unique Nature and Character

• Pre-existence: Jesus claimed to have glory with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), and his followers recognized him as the "image of God" (Col. 1:15) and the "Divine Word that became flesh" (John 1:1, 14).
• Divine Privileges: He possessed divine attributes like everlasting life and the power to give life to the dead.

As I recall, I posted something similar showing that earlier Gospels did not say he was divine. You never rebutted those claims so it appears we and cherry pick what we want since the Bible has both.

 

[ding]

John was the last Gospel to be written and the only one claiming divinity for Jesus. Why didn't the older ones do the same? Because his divinity evolved.


As I recall, I posted something similar showing that earlier Gospels did not say he was divine. You never rebutted those claims so it appears we and cherry pick what we want since the Bible has both.

So what? How does that answer any of the pertinent questions I asked. Walk me through the scam. Walk me through the myth. Who was responsible for it? Why did they do it? And how did they benefit from it?

 

[alang1216]

So what? How does that answer any of the pertinent questions I asked. Walk me through the scam. Walk me through the myth. Who was responsible for it? Why did they do it? And how did they benefit from it?

As I said, it happened the same way it always happened. You can ask those questions about any religious figure, e.g. Mohammad. Can you say why Mohammad's revelations are myth but Jesus' are not?

Doesn't really matter how it happened, it happened. I presented plenty of evidence the NT is not reliable, not of which you refuted. A Jewish account from hundreds of years after the event is meaningless hearsay.