Calif. Top Court Annuls San Francisco Gay Marriages

[Mr. P]

No worries folks...The U.S. Supreme will be the final Voice..not the 9th. Circuit.

An ya can bet it will go that far if need be.

We vote on a state Constitutional amendment here in Georgia in Nov.
I'm lookin forward to it.

 

[Avatar4321]

No worries folks...The U.S. Supreme will be the final Voice..not the 9th. Circuit.

An ya can bet it will go that far if need be.

We vote on a state Constitutional amendment here in Georgia in Nov.
I'm lookin forward to it.

Well until Bush is reelected and appoints two replacements to the SC i dont trust them much more either. And once he has the appointments there i will only half way trust them. the fabric of society isnt something we should passively wait for the Court to determine.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Y'all just don't get it do you. Firstly, There is no demonstrable, objective or verifiable harm inherent in the concept of same-gender marriage. Secondly, OK...so you don't care if same-gender couples have a union which entails all of the same rights, priviledges and responsibilities as marriage...What else do you want to call it besides marriage? Thirdly, how is permitting same-gender couples to marry going to harm you? Unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that allowing same-gender couples to marry will somehow harm you, or anyone else, your objections are groundless. The only objections I see to same-gender marriage are rooted in the insult to the sensibilities of those opposed to it.

This assault on the delicate sensibilities of those opposed to same-gender marriage is a canard. The real reason for opposition to it lies in fear. Fear that the opponents have of that side of themselves that finds the idea of sexual relations with someone of the same gender oddly fascinating. And it scares the living crap out of them. I used to have that same fear...I got over it by accepting that side of myself and moving on, even though I never explored that option, I'm not wired that way. I am a happily married man, and neither my wife or I can find any objection to same-gender couples marrying.

So, don't worry, if same-gender couples are allowed to marry, we won't all wake up queer the morning after.

 

[Mr. P]

... the fabric of society isnt something we should passively wait for the Court to determine.

Of Course NOT! The court should never make Laws, only apply them in court.
As you know, with the appointment of many "Liberal" Judges, legislation from the bench has become commonplace.

My guess is...part of the reason Bush has had so much trouble confirming appointments is because the Dems. are afraid of a canceling effect of "Their" appointees....

I would hope all rational people would understand that.

 

[Flying Duck]

The real reason for opposition to it lies in fear. Fear that the opponents have of that side of themselves that finds the idea of sexual relations with someone of the same gender oddly fascinating. And it scares the living crap out of them. I used to have that same fear...I got over it by accepting that side of myself and moving on, even though I never explored that option, I'm not wired that way. I am a happily married man, and neither my wife or I can find any objection to same-gender couples marrying.

So, don't worry, if same-gender couples are allowed to marry, we won't all wake up queer the morning after.

This is the biggest load of hooey there is. Most people don't like homosexuality because NATURE has made them heterosexual - not out of any fear. I, for one, have never had the slightest desire or fascination to make out with a guy. I would sleep with the ugliest girl in the world before I'd even consider doing anything with a man. (with the exception of Mrs. Ketchup or Hitlery but that's probably more of a personality conflict) I find the very thought thoroughly repulsive. And not for any religious reason either, I'm an avowed atheist. When I see two guys or gals making lovey-dovey - it repluses me.

This whole hollow argument is merely an attempt to put those who oppose the wholesale acceptance of homosexuality on the defensive. It doesn't wash.

I acknowledge that some people have these abnormal urges and would accept the concept of civil unoins, but wholeheartedly reject the notion that it's something to be promoted as normal or on a par with a heterosexual relationship.

 

[freeandfun1]

This assault on the delicate sensibilities of those opposed to same-gender marriage is a canard. The real reason for opposition to it lies in fear. Fear that the opponents have of that side of themselves that finds the idea of sexual relations with someone of the same gender oddly fascinating. And it scares the living crap out of them. I used to have that same fear...I got over it by accepting that side of myself and moving on, even though I never explored that option, I'm not wired that way. I am a happily married man, and neither my wife or I can find any objection to same-gender couples marrying.

HOGWASH!

Even if one has fleeting "feelings", suppressing those feelings/ideas shows character and is all part of the "growing" experience that determines one's life.

As you said, it will not stay with you, so KNOWING IT IS WRONG is just part of the OVERALL experience.

Drunks like drinking, crack addicts want crack, obese folks want food, etc., etc., etc., but if they can't control that themselves, then somebody else THAT CARES FOR THEM needs to do what THEY CAN to stop them.

It really is simple.

 

[Moi]

Unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that allowing same-gender couples to marry will somehow harm you, or anyone else, your objections are groundless.

Well, luckily, there is no law against making marriage laws. There is no constitutional protection to point to that makes it so.

What you so clearly fail to understand is that the constitution does not say that those who believe in morality are disallowed to use morality to make laws. Morality can and has been the basis for our laws since the dawn of man.

Morality is dictated by the majority...not a vocal minority who is bent on chastising those in the majority. You can paint people with whatever "bigot stick" you want, but it doesn't make it any less moral, right and legal to enact laws dictating behavior and what is best for society as a whole. It's the same reason I have to pay taxes, drive a speed limit, not use cocaine, see a doctor for a prescription, not marry my son, etc.

Just because you don't agree with the majority doesn't make us bigots, homophobes (what an asinine word that is!) or wrong...it just makes us the opposition.

 

[Hobbit]

Y'all just don't get it do you. Firstly, There is no demonstrable, objective or verifiable harm inherent in the concept of same-gender marriage. Secondly, OK...so you don't care if same-gender couples have a union which entails all of the same rights, priviledges and responsibilities as marriage...What else do you want to call it besides marriage? Thirdly, how is permitting same-gender couples to marry going to harm you? Unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that allowing same-gender couples to marry will somehow harm you, or anyone else, your objections are groundless. The only objections I see to same-gender marriage are rooted in the insult to the sensibilities of those opposed to it.

This assault on the delicate sensibilities of those opposed to same-gender marriage is a canard. The real reason for opposition to it lies in fear. Fear that the opponents have of that side of themselves that finds the idea of sexual relations with someone of the same gender oddly fascinating. And it scares the living crap out of them. I used to have that same fear...I got over it by accepting that side of myself and moving on, even though I never explored that option, I'm not wired that way. I am a happily married man, and neither my wife or I can find any objection to same-gender couples marrying.

So, don't worry, if same-gender couples are allowed to marry, we won't all wake up queer the morning after.

Uh, I'm opposed to civil unions. I even think the whole reason this gay marriage thing came up is because the gay interest groups are haggling with the U.S. government and all they really want is civil unions. I'm opposed because it legitimizes an abominable practice that goes against the very basis of my morals. While it wouldn't be feasible to go so far as to outlaw it, it CERTAINLY shouldn't be legitimized. As far as having 'desires' goes, some people have a desire to steal or kill, an inherent, unexplainable desire, just like homosexuality, but they still go to jail if they act on it.

As for "hating homosexuals," that is the dumbest, weakest argument I've heard, and I've heard it over and over again. It's like saying I hate people who curse because I ask that they not do so in front of me. It's like saying I hate all liars because I don't like being lied to. The whole accusation is childish, and it's just a half-cocked ploy to paint the opposition as bad people.

 

[Avatar4321]

As for "hating homosexuals," that is the dumbest, weakest argument I've heard, and I've heard it over and over again. It's like saying I hate people who curse because I ask that they not do so in front of me. It's like saying I hate all liars because I don't like being lied to. The whole accusation is childish, and it's just a half-cocked ploy to paint the opposition as bad people.

Actually you see no one can rationally oppose homosexuality. The homosexual community has said so. The debate is over. Therefore anyone who opposes homosexuals must do so for some irrational reason such as fear.

Using the same logic though, does that mean that Liberals are afraid of Bush? They are Bushophobes. they shouldnt be so dang intolerant

 

[acludem]

Ah, so because homosexuality offends YOUR sensibilities it should be banned. You know, I think right-wing hypocrisy offends MY sensibilities - can we ban that?

You can rationally think homosexuality is wrong, what is irrational is your fear of gay people and your fear of allowing them to have the same rights and responsibilities as straight people and to be left alone.

acludem

 

[musicman]

Well, luckily, there is no law against making marriage laws. There is no constitutional protection to point to that makes it so.

What you so clearly fail to understand is that the constitution does not say that those who believe in morality are disallowed to use morality to make laws. Morality can and has been the basis for our laws since the dawn of man.

Morality is dictated by the majority...not a vocal minority who is bent on chastising those in the majority. You can paint people with whatever "bigot stick" you want, but it doesn't make it any less moral, right and legal to enact laws dictating behavior and what is best for society as a whole. It's the same reason I have to pay taxes, drive a speed limit, not use cocaine, see a doctor for a prescription, not marry my son, etc.

Just because you don't agree with the majority doesn't make us bigots, homophobes (what an asinine word that is!) or wrong...it just makes us the opposition.

:usa:

 

[007]

Ah, so because homosexuality offends YOUR sensibilities it should be banned. You know, I think right-wing hypocrisy offends MY sensibilities - can we ban that?

You can rationally think homosexuality is wrong, what is irrational is your fear of gay people and your fear of allowing them to have the same rights and responsibilities as straight people and to be left alone.

acludem

My God acludem... have you gone completely off your rocker? For Christ sake... you can't see that NO ONE on this forum is buying that sad, stale, used and abused, old line of diatribe??!!

You sound like an imbecile son! LISTEN TO YOURSELF!! You're using words like "irrational", and "fear", and I don't see that in ANYTHING ANYONE has said in response to you and your tired old line.

Listen... I know your reading that scabby old crap out of your tattered and worn liberal handbook of responses, but hey, you're going to have to freshen up your rhetoric. NOBODY is buying the above shit anymore son.

 

[Avatar4321]

Ah, so because homosexuality offends YOUR sensibilities it should be banned. You know, I think right-wing hypocrisy offends MY sensibilities - can we ban that?

You can rationally think homosexuality is wrong, what is irrational is your fear of gay people and your fear of allowing them to have the same rights and responsibilities as straight people and to be left alone.

acludem

No one is afraid of gay people. I couldnt care less what the heck they want to do in the privacy of their own homes. i think if they were smart they would change and get their life in order but hey if they want to ruin their life i cant stop them. The fact that you guys cant deal with the rational debate but have to instead attack the people making the debate by accusing them of fear and hatemongering speaks volumes for your case.

I am sorry you are offended by chastity. Im sorry youre offened by integrity. Im sorry you are offended by character. Im sorry you're offended by discipline and hard work. Im sorry your an intolerant hypocrite who accuses others of being intolerant while at the same time prejudging other people you dont know anything about of being hypocrites. That doesnt change the facts

The fact is gays have and always have had the same exact rights and responsibilities. They can marry the same exact people us normal people can. They Choose not to. They have the same responsibilities as us normal people as well. We all have the responsibility to control our actions or face natural and imposed consequences. they choose not to live up to those responsibilities. No one has ever stopped a gay person from getting married. They just have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Governor McGreevey is a married gay man. However, you cant fundamentally change the meaning and purpose of marriage and expect it to be the same nor to change it unopposed. If you choose to live another lifestyle fine. But stop trying to make everyone as miserable as you are. You made your choice and you will miss out on the blessings of the right choice. Its that simple.

What im amazed about how the mayor of san fransisco oversteps his constitutional power, violates laws created by the people and their legislature, an act which threatens the very foundation of our Republic and you guys are more worried about trying to force your agenda on the people. And yet you claim to stand for peoples rights. Well, we are standing up for peoples rights to choose here. The people have chosen, deal with it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

HOGWASH!

Even if one has fleeting "feelings", suppressing those feelings/ideas shows character and is all part of the "growing" experience that determines one's life.

As you said, it will not stay with you, so KNOWING IT IS WRONG is just part of the OVERALL experience.

Drunks like drinking, crack addicts want crack, obese folks want food, etc., etc., etc., but if they can't control that themselves, then somebody else THAT CARES FOR THEM needs to do what THEY CAN to stop them.

It really is simple.

Well golly...The preponderance of evidence shows that we all, to a greater or lesser degree, have some latent homosexual tendencies. The real determinant for expressing that behaviour though lies not in "choice" but in in one's genetic make-up. Equating homosexuality, with the other behaviours you cited is a false analogy. While these behaviours also have their roots in the genes of the affected individual, they have been shown to be harmful to the affected indivduals as well as those around them. There has been no demonstrable harm show to arise from the long-term, monogamous union of same-gender couples. Your argument fails.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Well, luckily, there is no law against making marriage laws. There is no constitutional protection to point to that makes it so.

What you so clearly fail to understand is that the constitution does not say that those who believe in morality are disallowed to use morality to make laws. Morality can and has been the basis for our laws since the dawn of man.

Morality is dictated by the majority...not a vocal minority who is bent on chastising those in the majority. You can paint people with whatever "bigot stick" you want, but it doesn't make it any less moral, right and legal to enact laws dictating behavior and what is best for society as a whole. It's the same reason I have to pay taxes, drive a speed limit, not use cocaine, see a doctor for a prescription, not marry my son, etc.

Just because you don't agree with the majority doesn't make us bigots, homophobes (what an asinine word that is!) or wrong...it just makes us the opposition.

"Morality is dictated by the majority..." And therein lies the rub. Morality rooted in the whims, prejudices and misconceptions of "The Majority" is nothing more than tyrany. For our morals and ethics to have any real meaning at all, they must be rooted in their consequnces to THIS life in THIS world.

And, like freeandfun1, your analogies are false analogies. Unless you can prove demonstrable harm the the same-gender couple, those around them, or even to yourself, your argument fails.

 

[Bullypulpit]

My God acludem... have you gone completely off your rocker? For Christ sake... you can't see that NO ONE on this forum is buying that sad, stale, used and abused, old line of diatribe??!!

You sound like an imbecile son! LISTEN TO YOURSELF!! You're using words like "irrational", and "fear", and I don't see that in ANYTHING ANYONE has said in response to you and your tired old line.

Listen... I know your reading that scabby old crap out of your tattered and worn liberal handbook of responses, but hey, you're going to have to freshen up your rhetoric. NOBODY is buying the above shit anymore son.

You should really listen to your own scabby, worn out, tattered conservative diatribe. It has no rational basis. There is no rational argument, rooted in proven and demostrable harm to individuals or society, for prohibiting the marriage of same-gender couples.

 

[jimnyc]

You should really listen to your own scabby, worn out, tattered conservative diatribe. It has no rational basis. There is no rational argument, rooted in proven and demostrable harm to individuals or society, for prohibiting the marriage of same-gender couples.

There doesn't need to be an argument that you consider rational in order for society to deem something unacceptable. I'm willing to bet that anything ever presented to you would fall on deaf ears. That's why we have a voting system. What you consider irrational is irrelevant. What matters is what the majority of society considers unnacceptable and disgusting behavior.

The preponderance of evidence shows that we all, to a greater or lesser degree, have some latent homosexual tendencies.

Not one damn bit of a tendency in me whatsoever, and I call on you to prove otherwise. And even if there was, I'm intelligent and healthy enough to refrain from animal like behavior.

 

[Moi]

"Morality is dictated by the majority..." And therein lies the rub. Morality rooted in the whims, prejudices and misconceptions of "The Majority" is nothing more than tyrany. For our morals and ethics to have any real meaning at all, they must be rooted in their consequnces to THIS life in THIS world.

And, like freeandfun1, your analogies are false analogies. Unless you can prove demonstrable harm the the same-gender couple, those around them, or even to yourself, your argument fails.

Well, see, there now you are wrong. Your itty bitty little dagger has missed its mark. For society as a whole has been harmed. For all of the "freedom" that people have nowadays to enter into depravity has led to a decline in society. STD's, unwed mothers, babies in trash cans, rape, child molestation, murder, drugs, homelessness, starvation, uneducated people, truancy...all these things are blights on society- they make it worse.

Now I am not saying that homosexuals caused all these things. But what I am saying is that the more immoral behavior is allowed to become mainstream (gays, premarital sex, promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism as a disease, etc.) and our standards of conduct are out the window due to supposed freedom, the more the nuclear family, and by that I don't mean the radioactive kind, disappears the worse society as a whole becomes. For the strength of our society there has to be morality- and, yes, that morality has real life, immediate consequences- see above.

And there is nothing of "whims" in our belief that homosexuality and thus marriage of homos. is wrong....it's been that way for 1000's of years...that's not exactly what I'd call whims it's what I'd call historically significant.

 

[Mr. P]

Well, see, there now you are wrong. Your itty bitty little dagger has missed its mark. For society as a whole has been harmed. For all of the "freedom" that people have nowadays to enter into depravity has led to a decline in society. STD's, unwed mothers, babies in trash cans, rape, child molestation, murder, drugs, homelessness, starvation, uneducated people, truancy...all these things are blights on society- they make it worse.

Now I am not saying that homosexuals caused all these things. But what I am saying is that the more immoral behavior is allowed to become mainstream (gays, premarital sex, promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism as a disease, etc.) and our standards of conduct are out the window due to supposed freedom, the more the nuclear family, and by that I don't mean the radioactive kind, disappears the worse society as a whole becomes. For the strength of our society there has to be morality- and, yes, that morality has real life, immediate consequences- see above.

And there is nothing of "whims" in our belief that homosexuality and thus marriage of homos. is wrong....it's been that way for 1000's of years...that's not exactly what I'd call whims it's what I'd call historically significant.

Very Nice summation Moi, well done!...I've been waiting 4 pages for that...to lazy to do it myself.
Cio

 

[Moi]

Ah, so because homosexuality offends YOUR sensibilities it should be banned. You know, I think right-wing hypocrisy offends MY sensibilities - can we ban that?

You can rationally think homosexuality is wrong, what is irrational is your fear of gay people and your fear of allowing them to have the same rights and responsibilities as straight people and to be left alone.

acludem

No one, anywhere on this board from what I can see has in any way shape or form suggested banning homosexuality. I don't know how you can ban people's minds.

Perhaps you meant ban homosexuals? Well, again, I've not seen any evidence on the USMB or public polls that anyone is suggesting rounding them up like we did to the Japanese a few decaddes ago.

Perhaps you meant homosexual sex? Again, haven't seen anyone on the USMB suggest banning a private act.

Perhaps you meant homosexual marriage? Well, our opinions on that are pretty clear...we're against it.