Caliber vs Shot placement

[Mr. P]

Is caliber or shot placement more important?
I am taking of pistols for personal and home protection.

My opinion is shot placement is more important. You can have a canon but if you can’t hit the target, it’s no more than a noise maker.

What do you think?

 

[CSM]

Hmmm...IMO, both are important. A small round that hits exactly where it needs to but has no penetration is as useless as a large round that misses.

Shooting a grizzly bear with a BB gun comes to mind!

Obviously, there are a lot of factors involved beyond caliber and shot placement. Things like training, experience, and so on alll have an impact.

 

[Mr. P]

Hmmm...IMO, both are important. A small round that hits exactly where it needs to but has no penetration is as useless as a large round that misses.

Shooting a grizzly bear with a BB gun comes to mind!

Obviously, there are a lot of factors involved beyond caliber and shot placement. Things like training, experience, and so on alll have an impact.

Oh I agree 100%. It’s difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.

Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?

 

[CSM]

Oh I agree 100%. It’s difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.

Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?

I would go with either the .357 or the .45. Lots of technical reasons but mostly because of the kinetic energy at the point of impact, ease of use (for me, they are somewhat easier to shoot), availability of ammo, etc. The .38 is a bit light, which is why a lot of law enforcement institutions and the US military have largely abandoned it. 9mm is ok I guess but a bit light still...usually has more rounds available though. I do not find that to be an advantage in personal or home defense; that scenario is more likely to involve one or two shots (at most). Combat scenarios are a different story and the 9 is a compromise between number of rounds and effectiveness. Outside of that I think you are getting into "personal preference" areas. Being an old Army sorta guy, I like the .45 the best.

 

[90K]

Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion.
for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing: but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso. But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.

 

[Mr. P]

I would go with either the .357 or the .45. Lots of technical reasons but mostly because of the kinetic energy at the point of impact, ease of use (for me, they are somewhat easier to shoot), availability of ammo, etc. The .38 is a bit light, which is why a lot of law enforcement institutions and the US military have largely abandoned it. 9mm is ok I guess but a bit light still...usually has more rounds available though. I do not find that to be an advantage in personal or home defense; that scenario is more likely to involve one or two shots (at most). Combat scenarios are a different story and the 9 is a compromise between number of rounds and effectiveness. Outside of that I think you are getting into "personal preference" areas. Being an old Army sorta guy, I like the .45 the best.

I hear and read so many opinions that .40, .45 or even 10mm is the best, but I’ve read test result that concluded the 9mm is just as effective penetration wise as the .45 when loaded with the proper JHP. I’m satisfied the 9mm would be adequate. Easier to control and the ammunition cost for 9mm is cheaper than .45. Unless one has deep pockets cost is a significant factor if you are going to practice like you should. Just my opinion of course, it really does come down to personal preference at some point.

I have a S&W .357 revolver now and will keep it but I'm looking to purchase a semi-auto.

PS. During my active duty days pilots were issued .38 revolvers, better than nothing but where's my gun? LOL

 

[CSM]

I hear and read so many opinions that .40, .45 or even 10mm is the best, but I’ve read test result that concluded the 9mm is just as effective penetration wise as the .45 when loaded with the proper JHP. I’m satisfied the 9mm would be adequate. Easier to control and the ammunition cost for 9mm is cheaper than .45. Unless one has deep pockets cost is a significant factor if you are going to practice like you should. Just my opinion of course, it really does come down to personal preference at some point.

I have a S&W .357 revolver now and will keep it but I'm looking to purchase a semi-auto.

PS. During my active duty days pilots were issued .38 revolvers, better than nothing but where's my gun? LOL

Ah, the never ending debate regarding the merits of the 9mm vs. the .45 cal!
Interestingly, that debate is ongoing with the troops in the sandbox right now and the troops seem to want the .45; of course, most of the troops don't carry sidearms so it is a relatively small debating society.

You are correct about cost....what is your life worth...kidding but not!

 

[Mr. P]

Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion.
for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing: but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso. But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.

I would too. That reminds me, I went into a convenience store in a rural area one day. The guy behind the counter was wearing a hat that said “I don’t call 911”. I couldn’t figure that out until he turned slightly and exposed the pistol on his belt. I think he felt the same way.

 

[CSM]

Power and placement are indeed important factors in this discussion.
for me a 12 gauge is the weapon of choice for interior home security due to tight quarters. You'll get a pellet in the ass if you come around my house un-invited in the middle of oh-dark-thirty!:firing: but for more distant security then placement is the key and a 12 gauge doesn't achieve that IMO I can make a grease spot in the upper torso. But I don't shoot to disable I shoot to kill.

"Aim for center of mass!"

Shotgun is of course effective, but some folks don't want to be patching all them pellet holes in their walls. Most folks don't know how to use a long gun at close quarters and they are hard to tuck under your pillow...heh.

 

[Mr. P]

Ah, the never ending debate regarding the merits of the 9mm vs. the .45 cal!
Interestingly, that debate is ongoing with the troops in the sandbox right now and the troops seem to want the .45; of course, most of the troops don't carry sidearms so it is a relatively small debating society.

You are correct about cost....what is your life worth...kidding but not!

I wouldn’t poo-poo the .45. I just think the 9 fits my needs better. It’s accurate, effective and cheaper. It comes down to practice which = shot placement. If I can’t afford the round to become proficient a miss with a .45 is a miss.

What type round are they using, do you know? If it’s standard military I can see why they might want the .45 over there. They have 9s now right?

 

[Mr. P]

CSM, did you ever learn a “point and shoot” method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.

 

[CSM]

CSM, did you ever learn a “point and shoot” method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.

There is...I will try to find the basics for you.

Truth be told, the 9mm I had was a piece of crap...could not hit didldy with it...got my own .45 and carried that instead. It really soured me on the 9mm but I later found out that the barrel was bent (stupid staff officers anyway!) just ever so slightly when it was issued to me; the armorer knew it too but figured a CSM was never going to fire a weapon, go to the range for practice, much less actually use his handgun in combat (dumbass E-4s anyway!). I have subsequently fired a few 9mm and they functioned just fine.

You are of course correct in your assessment. I have stated in these forums before that, in the right hands, a .22 cal can be just as effective as any other caliber you want to choose... it's all a trade off and you have to choose that what fits your needs and constraints the best.

 

[90K]

"Aim for center of mass!"

Shotgun is of course effective, but some folks don't want to be patching all them pellet holes in their walls. Most folks don't know how to use a long gun at close quarters and they are hard to tuck under your pillow...heh.

Having a nice sawed off pump is good and yes home improvement could be a good thing

 

[CSM]

CSM, did you ever learn a “point and shoot” method with a pistol? I learned it with the M-16 and understand there is a technique for a pistol.

Here are a few links for ya:

http://www.pointshooting.com/

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html

 

[Mr. P]

There is...I will try to find the basics for you.

Truth be told, the 9mm I had was a piece of crap...could not hit didldy with it...got my own .45 and carried that instead. It really soured me on the 9mm but I later found out that the barrel was bent (stupid staff officers anyway!) just ever so slightly when it was issued to me; the armorer knew it too but figured a CSM was never going to fire a weapon, go to the range for practice, much less actually use his handgun in combat (dumbass E-4s anyway!). I have subsequently fired a few 9mm and they functioned just fine.

You are of course correct in your assessment. I have stated in these forums before that, in the right hands, a .22 cal can be just as effective as any other caliber you want to choose... it's all a trade off and you have to choose that what fits your needs and constraints the best.

Thanks! I'd like to learn that technique.
Geeezzzzzz I can't believe an armorer would even think of issueing a defective weapon...wait, ya I can.

 

[Mr. P]

Here are a few links for ya:

http://www.pointshooting.com/

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html

Thanks!

 

[Mr. P]

Here are a few links for ya:

http://www.pointshooting.com/

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html

Lots of great info on the two sites! Thanks again.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CSM again.

 

[Gunny]

Oh I agree 100%. It’s difficult to discuss one without considering all other factors. Another consideration would be ammunition type and load.

Assuming you can hit the target with a well placed shot, what caliber would you choose .38, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm. and why?

Depends on the application. If you live in an apt, a .38+P is about all you want unless capping the next door neighbor is part of the plan. That would be the "why" to having a lighter load in that setting.

No holds barred I'm going with a 195 grain Winchester Silvertip jacketed hollowpoint in .45 ACP. At full expansion it comes in just under an inch, and at rougly 1000 fps, it's going to hit like a baseball bat.

IMO, too much energy is lost with a smaller caiber at 1300 or so fps.

Second choice would be a .357 magnum (like the one I have ). It's possibly the most versatile handgun caliber out there.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Depends on the application. If you live in an apt, a .38+P is about all you want unless capping the next door neighbor is part of the plan. That would be the "why" to having a lighter load in that setting.

No holds barred I'm going with a 195 grain Winchester Silvertip jacketed hollowpoint in .45 ACP. At full expansion it comes in just under an inch, and at rougly 1000 fps, it's going to hit like a baseball bat.

IMO, too much energy is lost with a smaller caiber at 1300 or so fps.

Second choice would be a .357 magnum (like the one I have ). It's possibly the most versatile handgun caliber out there.

Caliber really doesn't matter anymore. Glazer Safety Slugs are about the only personal defense ammo I use. The round is frangible and doesn't allow for collateral damage. As for duty rounds(I'm a reserve Deputy), Speer Gold Hollow points is the only way to go.

Shot placement and caliber go hand in hand. You can be the best pistol shooter in the world and a .25 ACP still might not get the job done. Don't let James Bond and his 7.65 mm fool you. Don't trust your life to anything less than a .38+P. In today's world an assailant could be hopped up on any number of super drugs. Small calibers just don't do the trick because head shots are difficult for experienced shooters, much less those that only shoot occasionally. As Gunny pointed out, .45 ACP is excellent when loaded in a big cup hollow point such as Winchester Silver tips or Speer Gold Dots. Higher pressure big bore loads are much better foot-pounds of energy on impact into the chest of a doped up assailant. Just another opinion.

 

[Gunny]

Caliber really doesn't matter anymore. Glazer Safety Slugs are about the only personal defense ammo I use. The round is frangible and doesn't allow for collateral damage. As for duty rounds(I'm a reserve Deputy), Speer Gold Hollow points is the only way to go.

Shot placement and caliber go hand in hand. You can be the best pistol shooter in the world and a .25 ACP still might not get the job done. Don't let James Bond and his 7.65 mm fool you. Don't trust your life to anything less than a .38+P. In today's world an assailant could be hopped up on any number of super drugs. Small calibers just don't do the trick because head shots are difficult for experienced shooters, much less those that only shoot occasionally. As Gunny pointed out, .45 ACP is excellent when loaded in a big cup hollow point such as Winchester Silver tips or Speer Gold Dots. Higher pressure big bore loads are much better foot-pounds of energy on impact into the chest of a doped up assailant. Just another opinion.

I agree and disagree. If I hit you in the hip with a .45 ACP Silvertip, it's going to spin you around at least so I can get another shot. A .22/.25 might not even slow you down. IMO, you have a greater margin for error with a larger caliber. But in the end, you DO have to drop your target.

I never have cared for Glazers. Too many possible limitations to its use. for instance, if you have to fire through your pocket, you're SOL. And I really don't put it past home invaders to be wearing body armor. In their place, I would.