Border states rebel against ID requirements

Redhots

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Apr 9, 2006
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Lawmakers fight to delay stiffer restrictions on travel from Canada

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12498004/

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is facing a rebellion by northern border-state lawmakers who want to push back deadlines requiring passports or tamperproof ID cards from all who enter the United States.

In a bow to lawmakers whose states neighbor Canada, the Homeland Security Department is considering easing some of the rules for infrequent border crossers. But many in Congress, backed by Canadians, say the compromise isn’t enough, and are pushing to delay the restrictions, set to take effect in 2008, by 18 months.

The rules, as they stand now, are “a train wreck on the horizon,” said Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt. He and Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, are looking to file legislation that would delay border requirements until July 2009. That legislation could come as early as this week as part of a massive spending bill the Senate is considering, Leahy spokesman David Carle said Wednesday. Stevens is chairman of the Appropriations Committee.

Confronting the ‘Aunt Tilly’ problem
The administration may initially address part of what some in Washington call the “Aunt Tilly” problem — occasional visitors to Canadian border communities who might be prevented from returning to the U.S. because they didn’t know to bring acceptable ID. The law applies to U.S. citizens and foreign visitors alike.

“We are working on that, we’re concerned about that, and the last thing we want to do is discourage traffic,” Jim Williams, director of a Homeland Security Department program that monitors international travel to the U.S., said in an interview. “We’ve got to come up with solutions that meet people’s needs.”

Specific plans are still being worked out. Williams said the administration was looking at issuing short-term passes, or one-day passes, for legitimate border travelers who have neither a passport nor the proposed “PASS” card that is being developed.

To people who repeatedly try to cross the border without the right ID, however, “we might say, ‘Look, we won’t let you back in if you continue to do this and not get a passport or card,”’ Williams said. “We don’t want to discourage that person’s travel, but, on the other hand, we want to move people to where we can identify them.”

Bumps in the road north
The ID rules were part of a 2004 intelligence overhaul law, overwhelmingly approved by Congress, to tighten U.S. borders against terrorists. They have since pitted lawmakers from border states against those from the heartland, strained relations with Canada, and forced Homeland Security to roll out technology and training under a deadline that may prove too aggressive to meet.

Concerns were highlighted last week by Canadian Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, who questioned Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff about whether the rules would be ready.

“Obviously I raised concerns, some of the same questions that you raised, in terms of, is it feasible?” Day told reporters in Washington. “Those are concerns of interest, those are concerns neighbors raise because they might be concerned about what their neighbor is doing.”

The rules are not as controversial on the nation’s southern border, where more than 8 million Mexicans carry laser visas that let them easily travel between the two countries. Those who enter the U.S. from Canada now need only common forms of identification, such as a driver’s license and a birth certificate.

Economic impact debated
Critics fear the rules will dramatically reduce travel and tourism across the northern border, damaging local economies, as visitors shy away from the $97 cost of a passport. The PASS cards are expected to cost half that much, and perhaps far less, said Assistant Secretary of State Maura Harty.

“We all recognize the security issues. But there’s practical and economic impacts that me and my colleagues all have been hit with, and we’re sensitive to,” said Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn.

Homeland Security “needs to tell us exactly how this is going to work, exactly what the costs are going to be,” said Coleman, who voted for the 2004 law mandating the border crackdown. “We don’t think we’re at that stage.” Sen. Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y., said Homeland Security “is listening and is beginning to understand our problem, but we’re not going to rest until there’s a solution that solves it.”
 
This looks like more feel good legislation (similar to a lot of gun stuff) that for the most part is only going to punish people who follow the law and take away tax monies from other programs where they would be better spent.

If a "bad guy" wants to cross the border they're going to get across, period. Our borders are just too big. The expense of properly maintaining a real messure of security of them would be enormous.

Even then its no guarantee... after all many people still made it across the Berlin Wall which was only 96 miles long... the US / Canada border is 3145 miles and the US / Mexico border is 1951 miles long.
 
Redhots said:
This looks like more feel good legislation (similar to a lot of gun stuff) that for the most part is only going to punish people who follow the law and take away tax monies from other programs where they would be better spent.

If a "bad guy" wants to cross the border they're going to get across, period. Our borders are just too big. The expense of properly maintaining a real messure of security of them would be enormous.

Even then its no guarantee... after all many people still made it across the Berlin Wall which was only 96 miles long... the US / Canada border is 3145 miles and the US / Mexico border is 1951 miles long.

Not that many. I am hoping that Mexico and Canada are much friendlier and free to their citizens than Eastern Germany/USSR were. :rolleyes: The eyes are meant as, 'no duh!' Not even a contest.
 
Not that many.

Actually only something like 250 people were shot attempting to cross the wall while thousands made it through. Thats a very lopsided figure.

Now that doesn't take into account the number of people who were stopped and turned around, but out of the people who were willing to risk it all to make it across the wall was a poor defense.

The main idea behind putting up walls along the US boarder (at least with Canada) is to stop terrorists (specificly Islamic extremest, the suicide bombers) from sneaking in. A wall wont stop someone like that...

I am hoping that Mexico and Canada are much friendlier and free to their citizens than Eastern Germany/USSR were.

And thats part of the point I was making, whether or not we or they shoot to kill people jumping the boarder is illrelvent. Its about "can people still sneak across?". I used the Berlin Wall as a classic example of just how ineffective a wall can be at stoping someone determined to cross it.

The only people who are going to be effected by this kind of thing are people who follow the law and tax payers who will foot the HUGE bill at the expense of other programs. Same as it ever was.
 
dmp said:
I wonder who they'll blame when an attack happens in their state?

"Damn GWB for not enforcing tougher rules!!!"

Well I don't know about "them", but I don't blame the police everytime someone is murdered. There is only so much you can do in a free society.
 
I've noticed this board has serveral posters from Texas and other boarder states.

I'm wondering if any of them could offer some insight to the validity of this snipit.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/26/BORDERFENCE.TMP

Leaders in many border cities already have vehemently objected to a fence. The city of Calexico in Imperial County passed a resolution in early January opposing it.

"We should be in the construction of bridges of good relationships with Mexico," said Calexico Mayor Alex Perrone, whose city has mutual aid agreements with the police and fire departments in neighboring Mexicali, just over the border in Baja California. Calexico's retail economy depends on Mexican shoppers, he added. "If we don't have Mexico, we don't have Calexico."

Mike Allen, director of the McAllen (Texas) Economic Development Corp., said leaders from along the Rio Grande agreed at a recent gathering: "Every single mayor from Brownsville to El Paso is against it.

"We want people to support our immigration laws because we live here," said Allen, who lives a half-mile from the border. "But this will be a tremendous waste of money, and it will not stop (illegal) immigration. People will just go around it."

Is that the attitude most mayors in boader states have?

Specificly I'm interested in the part in bold text, about "Every single mayor from Brownsville to El Paso..." thats pretty much the entire Texas boarder.
 
Redhots said:
Actually only something like 250 people were shot attempting to cross the wall while thousands made it through. Thats a very lopsided figure.

Now that doesn't take into account the number of people who were stopped and turned around, but out of the people who were willing to risk it all to make it across the wall was a poor defense.

The main idea behind putting up walls along the US boarder (at least with Canada) is to stop terrorists (specificly Islamic extremest, the suicide bombers) from sneaking in. A wall wont stop someone like that...

And thats part of the point I was making, whether or not we or they shoot to kill people jumping the boarder is illrelvent. Its about "can people still sneak across?". I used the Berlin Wall as a classic example of just how ineffective a wall can be at stoping someone determined to cross it.

The only people who are going to be effected by this kind of thing are people who follow the law and tax payers who will foot the HUGE bill at the expense of other programs. Same as it ever was.


The numbers are dicey. In any case really doesn't matter, one was built to keep people 'in.' What is being called for here is to keep people out. There is a difference, which I'm sure you will refuse to acknowledge:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/06/wall.death.strip/
Memory of Berlin Wall casualties haunts Germany
Aerial
Berlin was divided by the wall for 28 years Berlin

November 6, 1999
Web posted at: 9:58 p.m. EST (0258 GMT)
In this story:

BERLIN (CNN) -- The Berlin Wall was an intimidating barrier bristling with barbed wire and armed guards.

Thousands managed to escape through or over the wall, which divided the city of Berlin for 28 years. But hundreds died trying to flee to the West before the wall fell 10 years ago -- on November 9, 1989.

Some 5,000 East Germans escaped into West Berlin, often resorting to extraordinary means. They hid in hollowed out compartments in automobiles. Others swam, dug tunnels or piloted flying machines to freedom. One slid down a high tension line. Another hid between a pair of surfboards.
VIDEO
VideoBerlin Bureau Chief Chris Burns looks back at the history of the Berlin Wall as the 10th anniversary of its fall approaches
Windows Media 28K 80K

Germany today


East German guards fled as well

Some East German guards joined the westward migration.

"I fled with a group of people, and one of the escapees got stuck in the barbed wire. We got him out, but the East German police were shooting at us," said one former guard.

Frequently, however, the bullets hit their mark. An estimated 940 people died trying to escape, 270 of them cut down by East German guards, according to German prosecutors.

Others drowned or died jumping from buildings. During the wall's early days, dramatic escape scenes played out daily along Bernauer Street, where fronts of buildings formed the border with the West. Dozens of East Germans jumped from windows before they were bricked -- sometimes with fatal results. Eventually, the buildings were destroyed.

"First the doors were closed. Then the windows were closed. In the meantime, there were young (and) elderly people who jumped out of windows," said Eberhard Diepgen, the mayor of Berlin.
The wall
In central Berlin, the concrete wall was topped with tubular cladding to prevent anyone from climbing over

Many shootings were at the Death Strip

In the center of the city, observation towers, flood lights and patrol dogs choked a swath of land separated by parallel concrete lengths of concrete wall, known in the West as the notorious Death Strip.

More than 170 of those killed trying to escape died in the Death Strip, where armed East German guards had orders to shoot to kill.

The most shocking failed attempt took place on August 17, 1962. Peter Fechter, an 18-year-old apprentice mason, broke for freedom across the Death Strip. East German bullets stopped his flight at the base of the wall. For 50 minutes he lay unaided, moaning, "Help me."

West Berliners shouted "Murderers!" at the guards, hurled stones at U.S. military vehicles and threw first-aid supplies to Fechter.

'The Americans got blamed for his death'

They demanded that U.S. troops patrolling on the West Berlin side retrieve the injured teen-ager, but Fechter bled to death just two feet from freedom before East German police finally carried his body away.

"The Americans got blamed for his death," said J.W. Smith, a former U.S. military policeman. "We were under orders not to do anything as long as somebody had not made it into our sector."

East and West Germany unified less than a year after the wall fell. But prosecutions of suspects in border killings remain a bitter legacy.

Former East German guards have been put on trial, as have escapees who killed guards in self defense. Guards often face stiffer sentences. They have not convinced judges that they were merely following orders.
 
Kathianne said:
In any case really doesn't matter, one was built to keep people 'in.' What is being called for here is to keep people out. There is a difference, which I'm sure you will refuse to acknowledge

How is the intention of the builders of a wall relevent to the person trying to cross it?

If i'm trying to get from point A to point B and there is a wall in my way that I need to get across; what does it matter if it was built to keep me in point A or keep me out of point B?
 
Redhots said:
How is the intention of the builders of a wall relevent to the person trying to cross it?

If i'm trying to get from point A to point B and there is a wall in my way that I need to get across; what does it matter if it was built to keep me in point A or keep me out of point B?
Desire.

When a country errects a wall as USSR was compelled to do, it's in reaction to something they can't control. IF Mexico errected a wall, to keep in their citizens, there would be a parallel.

In this case however, both countries acknowledge the desire of the 'crossees' is employment/better opportunities.' The gate has been open, so 'why not?'

If the gate is shut, the vast majority will try another way, legal entry or something in Mexico. The exception being the felons, a not insignificant number.
 
Redhots said:
I've noticed this board has serveral posters from Texas and other boarder states.

I'm wondering if any of them could offer some insight to the validity of this snipit.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/26/BORDERFENCE.TMP



Is that the attitude most mayors in boader states have?

Specificly I'm interested in the part in bold text, about "Every single mayor from Brownsville to El Paso..." thats pretty much the entire Texas boarder.

Mexicans already OWN the cities and counties along the border states if ya know what I mean--not surprising at all that that are against a fence.
 
Kathianne said:
If the gate is shut, the vast majority will try another way, legal entry or something in Mexico.

I think thats a very big maybe. One of the big things keeping some people from going the legal route is the legalization process itself..

That said...

Kathianne said:
The exception being the felons, a not insignificant number.

I think we can at least agree that a wall is a pretty poor means of keeping criminals out.

Anywho...

I could see myself getting behind the idea of a wall along the US and Mexico, as long as that wasn't the only thing we did to address the problem, but a wall along the US and Canada is just stupid... even these new passcards are a worthless idea.

Again that idea is going to be as effective in solving the targeted problem (terrorists sneaking in) as having to regester to buy a gun at Walmart is with stoping gun crime / violence.
 
Redhots said:
How is the intention of the builders of a wall relevent to the person trying to cross it?

If i'm trying to get from point A to point B and there is a wall in my way that I need to get across; what does it matter if it was built to keep me in point A or keep me out of point B?


AH Surely you're not either that stupid or expect others to be. The person trying to cross the wall wants out of where they are and into were they want to be. As in the Berlin Wall the proposed wall is to keep one side where it is. Mexico for Mexicans. America for Americans. Entiende? Your position is unsupportable and, frankly, quite ignorant.
 
Rico said:
AH Surely you're not either that stupid or expect others to be. The person trying to cross the wall wants out of where they are and into were they want to be. As in the Berlin Wall the proposed wall is to keep one side where it is. Mexico for Mexicans. America for Americans. Entiende? Your position is unsupportable and, frankly, quite ignorant.

DITTO...............

Plus, and also, if we aren't a country of law's, what are we?
 
Redhots said:
I think thats a very big maybe. One of the big things keeping some people from going the legal route is the legalization process itself..

That said...



I think we can at least agree that a wall is a pretty poor means of keeping criminals out.

Anywho...

I could see myself getting behind the idea of a wall along the US and Mexico, as long as that wasn't the only thing we did to address the problem, but a wall along the US and Canada is just stupid... even these new passcards are a worthless idea.

Again that idea is going to be as effective in solving the targeted problem (terrorists sneaking in) as having to regester to buy a gun at Walmart is with stoping gun crime / violence.
No, we cannot.
 

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