border security a reflection of where we're headed?

[iceberg]

i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here.

first - i think a wall is pointless. it's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU ANYMORE. most walls through time were mixed in results. israel gets kudos for their big massive wall and it is. big and massive that is. in parts. at other times it's a home depot special and given we still have violence, explosions and problems - well it's not working now is it? slows down yes but fixing the problem would do the same and alleviate the need for the wall.

there are places a wall makes sense and there are places it makes much more sense to simply drone and use technology.

now - what make our immigration system so complex that people feel illegal entry is their only hope?

this makes some sense:
Why Immigration is Such a Hard Problem | The Stream
We all know that in the last few decades the US has grown lax in securing its borders and enforcing immigration laws. It’s also become a vast entitlement state, so that even immigrants who want to make a life for themselves can end up on the public dole. Many of our institutions encourage relativism and treat assimilation as some sort of racist plot.

so - we don't enforce our laws (and we don't. when trump tried he got crucified for separating families, EVEN THOUGH that's what we do in the US to our own citizens) and when we try, it gets political.

why? why is enforcing our laws so political? all i can say is it comes down to our individual insecurities and the way we've simply divided over the last 12+ years. we can't let the other side have what they want or somehow we lose what we want.

one side wants you to work for a living, the other side wants to give a basic income and welcome over millions of people w/o work or effort. i tell ya, $1k a month to a family from honduras would go a long long way wouldn't it? hell live here a year and keep 1/2 and send 1/2 home we're now exporting money to these families who are going to use it in their own country. at least i can see that scenario. hard to prove at this juncture but why wouldn't a family come over, get free $ and send it home then go back home when we run out?

one side is storing nuts for the winter and the other side is throwing their nuts at anyone they can. but it still comes back to not letting the other side have what they feel they want. other said side digs in and suddenly they won't let the first side do things and the only thing left is to spiral off into more stupidity.

and here we are.

so the border issue is much larger than a wall. at least to me and from what i know. we have a congress who refuses to work together to resolve issues and creates stances that are diametrically opposed to whatever the other side wants, even if it makes sense. our government is in chaos and the border is a reflection of people picking up the pieces as we tear things down around us.

a wall won't fix our fundamental problems of simply not trusting each other. that's on us. until we can find a way to focus on where we agree vs. where we don't this will only get worse.

the border is a crisis point. however, the border alone isn't what will kill this country. we're doing that ourselves and that's the crisis we need to understand.

given our penchant to never dig deep into problems and just react emotionally, i don't see this ending well at all.

 

[Penelope]

The republicans have been in charge since 2013 and have done nothing. The first 2 years of Tramp they refused to work with the Dems. You didn't want to get partisan, but you sure did.

 

[iceberg]

The republicans have been in charge since 2013 and have done nothing. The first 2 years of Tramp they refused to work with the Dems. You didn't want to get partisan, but you sure did.

i see you can't do the purpose of this OP.

"i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here."

so if all you're going to do is whine WAH R's DID IT WAH - please bow out. we've got that in about every other thread on this board. in here i would like to talk about the issue itself and how we collectively got this bad. there's blame for all in this pile of crap but the question is identifying the core issues (that are NOT wah they suck related) and where do we go from here?

 

[Moonglow]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

 

[iceberg]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

which laws?

the # of people we allow per year?
the process by which they must go through to become citizens?

and how will we change them?

if they're coming over here because of our "entitlement" mantra these days, will changing laws stop that? they're going to break them anyway so what laws would we put in place they'll follow? not being a dick - just asking honestly if they're going to break laws anyway what laws can we change to get them to stop? also, what laws are we no longer enforcing out of fear of being called "racist"? if we don't enforce the laws we have now, why will more help?

man, sounds like gun control and immigration control share some common problems.

 

[Moonglow]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

which laws?

the # of people we allow per year?
the process by which they must go through to become citizens?

and how will we change them?

if they're coming over here because of our "entitlement" mantra these days, will changing laws stop that? they're going to break them anyway so what laws would we put in place they'll follow? not being a dick - just asking honestly if they're going to break laws anyway what laws can we change to get them to stop? also, what laws are we no longer enforcing out of fear of being called "racist"? if we don't enforce the laws we have now, why will more help?

man, sounds like gun control and immigration control share some common problems.

The asylum laws they passed in the 1990's when Congress wanted groups to come to the US...This is an issue I have been following since the 1980's when I was in the govt. working. When the US invaded Panama to take out our coke dealer Noriega laws were passed by Congress to allow people from Central America to become refugees and the ability to seek asylum due to the govts. of that country violating human rights.

 

[iceberg]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

which laws?

the # of people we allow per year?
the process by which they must go through to become citizens?

and how will we change them?

if they're coming over here because of our "entitlement" mantra these days, will changing laws stop that? they're going to break them anyway so what laws would we put in place they'll follow? not being a dick - just asking honestly if they're going to break laws anyway what laws can we change to get them to stop? also, what laws are we no longer enforcing out of fear of being called "racist"? if we don't enforce the laws we have now, why will more help?

man, sounds like gun control and immigration control share some common problems.

The asylum laws they passed in the 1990's when Congress wanted groups to come to the US...

so nothing specific. i'll go dig up asylum laws later today when i can to try and get what you're saying - but again what laws can be passed if they don't follow them and we don't enforce them that will make a difference?

 

[Moonglow]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

which laws?

the # of people we allow per year?
the process by which they must go through to become citizens?

and how will we change them?

if they're coming over here because of our "entitlement" mantra these days, will changing laws stop that? they're going to break them anyway so what laws would we put in place they'll follow? not being a dick - just asking honestly if they're going to break laws anyway what laws can we change to get them to stop? also, what laws are we no longer enforcing out of fear of being called "racist"? if we don't enforce the laws we have now, why will more help?

man, sounds like gun control and immigration control share some common problems.

The asylum laws they passed in the 1990's when Congress wanted groups to come to the US...

so nothing specific. i'll go dig up asylum laws later today when i can to try and get what you're saying - but again what laws can be passed if they don't follow them and we don't enforce them that will make a difference?

The laws are being followed at the border which is what is pissing you off..Trump plays the game well in hiding the fact that nothing has changed.

 

[iceberg]

Laws must be changed that accommodate the large groups of asylum seekers and those that flood the border..No amount of wall will stop what the law can....

which laws?

the # of people we allow per year?
the process by which they must go through to become citizens?

and how will we change them?

if they're coming over here because of our "entitlement" mantra these days, will changing laws stop that? they're going to break them anyway so what laws would we put in place they'll follow? not being a dick - just asking honestly if they're going to break laws anyway what laws can we change to get them to stop? also, what laws are we no longer enforcing out of fear of being called "racist"? if we don't enforce the laws we have now, why will more help?

man, sounds like gun control and immigration control share some common problems.

The asylum laws they passed in the 1990's when Congress wanted groups to come to the US...

so nothing specific. i'll go dig up asylum laws later today when i can to try and get what you're saying - but again what laws can be passed if they don't follow them and we don't enforce them that will make a difference?

The laws are being followed at the border which is what is pissing you off..Trump plays the game well in hiding the fact that nothing has changed.

well first - i'm not pissed. why you have to assign some mock-faux emotion is beyond me. now you attack me and not the issue itself.

usually means you don't have a lot to say - just like to get some shots in.

 

[MisterBeale]

i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here.

first - i think a wall is pointless. it's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU ANYMORE. most walls through time were mixed in results. israel gets kudos for their big massive wall and it is. big and massive that is. in parts. at other times it's a home depot special and given we still have violence, explosions and problems - well it's not working now is it? slows down yes but fixing the problem would do the same and alleviate the need for the wall.

there are places a wall makes sense and there are places it makes much more sense to simply drone and use technology.

now - what make our immigration system so complex that people feel illegal entry is their only hope?

this makes some sense:
Why Immigration is Such a Hard Problem | The Stream
We all know that in the last few decades the US has grown lax in securing its borders and enforcing immigration laws. It’s also become a vast entitlement state, so that even immigrants who want to make a life for themselves can end up on the public dole. Many of our institutions encourage relativism and treat assimilation as some sort of racist plot.

so - we don't enforce our laws (and we don't. when trump tried he got crucified for separating families, EVEN THOUGH that's what we do in the US to our own citizens) and when we try, it gets political.

why? why is enforcing our laws so political? all i can say is it comes down to our individual insecurities and the way we've simply divided over the last 12+ years. we can't let the other side have what they want or somehow we lose what we want.

one side wants you to work for a living, the other side wants to give a basic income and welcome over millions of people w/o work or effort. i tell ya, $1k a month to a family from honduras would go a long long way wouldn't it? hell live here a year and keep 1/2 and send 1/2 home we're now exporting money to these families who are going to use it in their own country. at least i can see that scenario. hard to prove at this juncture but why wouldn't a family come over, get free $ and send it home then go back home when we run out?

one side is storing nuts for the winter and the other side is throwing their nuts at anyone they can. but it still comes back to not letting the other side have what they feel they want. other said side digs in and suddenly they won't let the first side do things and the only thing left is to spiral off into more stupidity.

and here we are.

so the border issue is much larger than a wall. at least to me and from what i know. we have a congress who refuses to work together to resolve issues and creates stances that are diametrically opposed to whatever the other side wants, even if it makes sense. our government is in chaos and the border is a reflection of people picking up the pieces as we tear things down around us.

a wall won't fix our fundamental problems of simply not trusting each other. that's on us. until we can find a way to focus on where we agree vs. where we don't this will only get worse.

the border is a crisis point. however, the border alone isn't what will kill this country. we're doing that ourselves and that's the crisis we need to understand.

given our penchant to never dig deep into problems and just react emotionally, i don't see this ending well at all.

Good article.

Hardly anyone on this forum reads, moot discussion.

Sum up;

". . . . The key point is that immigration plus multiculturalism plus democracy are likely to give rise to dangerous ethnic and religious factions, which may even threaten society as a whole. This is obvious in the extreme: Imagine granting American citizenship to 100 million Islamists, all at once, who are opposed to individual human rights, representative government, and religious freedom. How do you suppose the next election would turn out? And the one after that? We should take no one seriously in this debate who refuses to recognize this simple point. Immigration policy cannot be a social suicide pact.


Add the unsustainable entitlements to the mix, and you get a deadly powder keg. . . . . "

 

[iceberg]

i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here.

first - i think a wall is pointless. it's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU ANYMORE. most walls through time were mixed in results. israel gets kudos for their big massive wall and it is. big and massive that is. in parts. at other times it's a home depot special and given we still have violence, explosions and problems - well it's not working now is it? slows down yes but fixing the problem would do the same and alleviate the need for the wall.

there are places a wall makes sense and there are places it makes much more sense to simply drone and use technology.

now - what make our immigration system so complex that people feel illegal entry is their only hope?

this makes some sense:
Why Immigration is Such a Hard Problem | The Stream
We all know that in the last few decades the US has grown lax in securing its borders and enforcing immigration laws. It’s also become a vast entitlement state, so that even immigrants who want to make a life for themselves can end up on the public dole. Many of our institutions encourage relativism and treat assimilation as some sort of racist plot.

so - we don't enforce our laws (and we don't. when trump tried he got crucified for separating families, EVEN THOUGH that's what we do in the US to our own citizens) and when we try, it gets political.

why? why is enforcing our laws so political? all i can say is it comes down to our individual insecurities and the way we've simply divided over the last 12+ years. we can't let the other side have what they want or somehow we lose what we want.

one side wants you to work for a living, the other side wants to give a basic income and welcome over millions of people w/o work or effort. i tell ya, $1k a month to a family from honduras would go a long long way wouldn't it? hell live here a year and keep 1/2 and send 1/2 home we're now exporting money to these families who are going to use it in their own country. at least i can see that scenario. hard to prove at this juncture but why wouldn't a family come over, get free $ and send it home then go back home when we run out?

one side is storing nuts for the winter and the other side is throwing their nuts at anyone they can. but it still comes back to not letting the other side have what they feel they want. other said side digs in and suddenly they won't let the first side do things and the only thing left is to spiral off into more stupidity.

and here we are.

so the border issue is much larger than a wall. at least to me and from what i know. we have a congress who refuses to work together to resolve issues and creates stances that are diametrically opposed to whatever the other side wants, even if it makes sense. our government is in chaos and the border is a reflection of people picking up the pieces as we tear things down around us.

a wall won't fix our fundamental problems of simply not trusting each other. that's on us. until we can find a way to focus on where we agree vs. where we don't this will only get worse.

the border is a crisis point. however, the border alone isn't what will kill this country. we're doing that ourselves and that's the crisis we need to understand.

given our penchant to never dig deep into problems and just react emotionally, i don't see this ending well at all.

Good article.

Hardly anyone on this forum reads, moot discussion.

Sum up;

". . . . The key point is that immigration plus multiculturalism plus democracy are likely to give rise to dangerous ethnic and religious factions, which may even threaten society as a whole. This is obvious in the extreme: Imagine granting American citizenship to 100 million Islamists, all at once, who are opposed to individual human rights, representative government, and religious freedom. How do you suppose the next election would turn out? And the one after that? We should take no one seriously in this debate who refuses to recognize this simple point. Immigration policy cannot be a social suicide pact.


Add the unsustainable entitlements to the mix, and you get a deadly powder keg. . . . . "

yea, i made the mistake of taking someone off ignore because they bothered to reply. 2 replies later i remembered why i put them there. ANYWAY - thank you.

it's hard to find an article that address the issue and history behind it w/o their "because of the other side"

i get it. we hate that "other side" and they are in fact the root of all evil. only which other side? we got 2 of them and both pull the same shit in different ways.

the biggest reason they seem to be flocking here is because we don't stop them and we're giving money away. if i lived in a 50 sq ft hut in guatamala and took shits in a ditch, i may walk a few thousand miles to improve my life also. i have to wonder how we're being billed/represented in those countries to make the US seem like such a paradise for them, worth this effort. we never see what they see as far as i know and i'd welcome that perspective.

but thank you so much for taking the time to read the article and respond to the core of the issue. i wish we had more of that around here.

 

[Maxdeath]

In my opinion there are a number of problems at play and non have been or will be addressed.
1. Is we have had general amnesty for groups of illegals. Such as Reagan and 44. This sends a message of come here hide long enough and you might win the lottery.
2. Hiring of illegals. There is no law that allows for punishment of those that actually hire undocumented workers.
3. Falsication of documents and using those documents to obtain employment is not treated strict enough.
4. The so called catch and release method of immigration enforcement. If caught send them back across the border until they apply for admission at a border crossing then wait until their case is heard.
5. States and cities attempting to legitimize illegals by allowing them to remain in so called sancutuary. Giving them drivers licenses, voting rights, even allowing them to become lawyers who are supposed to be upholding our laws ( laws they knowingly broke and are continuing to break).

 

[iceberg]

In my opinion there are a number of problems at play and non have been or will be addressed.
1. Is we have had general amnesty for groups of illegals. Such as Reagan and 44. This sends a message of come here hide long enough and you might win the lottery.
2. Hiring of illegals. There is no law that allows for punishment of those that actually hire undocumented workers.
3. Falsication of documents and using those documents to obtain employment is not treated strict enough.
4. The so called catch and release method of immigration enforcement. If caught send them back across the border until they apply for admission at a border crossing then wait until their case is heard.
5. States and cities attempting to legitimize illegals by allowing them to remain in so called sancutuary. Giving them drivers licenses, voting rights, even allowing them to become lawyers who are supposed to be upholding our laws ( laws they knowingly broke and are continuing to break).

i think all those are valid points and a reflection of how we run our country. reagan ran into his own political issues we're still dealing with today and that could be a "ground zero" moment.

 

[pismoe]

republicans 'reagan and bush' were the ground zero event .

 

[iceberg]

republicans 'reagan and bush' were the ground zero event .

here we go again - blame the other side. if you must go here then please recall it was reagan who said he'd allow amnesty if the left would pass the laws to punish people for hiring illegals.

well we got amnesty. what happened to the rest?

while those actions may well be "ground zero" only a partisan hack/fool would blame 1 side and only 1 side for the toilet water we're swimming in.

 

[pismoe]

'reagan' was either Stupid or conniving or his rumored 'alzheimers' was kicking in . And 'old man bush' was just conniving because its my opinion that he and the entire 'bush' familia wants as many 'mex' and hispanics , latinos in the country as possible . Purpose of that is to make 'jebito bushs' mexican wife 'columba' and family feel comfortable Iceberg .

 

[candycorn]

i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here.

first - i think a wall is pointless. it's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU ANYMORE. most walls through time were mixed in results. israel gets kudos for their big massive wall and it is. big and massive that is. in parts. at other times it's a home depot special and given we still have violence, explosions and problems - well it's not working now is it? slows down yes but fixing the problem would do the same and alleviate the need for the wall.

there are places a wall makes sense and there are places it makes much more sense to simply drone and use technology.

now - what make our immigration system so complex that people feel illegal entry is their only hope?

this makes some sense:
Why Immigration is Such a Hard Problem | The Stream
We all know that in the last few decades the US has grown lax in securing its borders and enforcing immigration laws. It’s also become a vast entitlement state, so that even immigrants who want to make a life for themselves can end up on the public dole. Many of our institutions encourage relativism and treat assimilation as some sort of racist plot.

so - we don't enforce our laws (and we don't. when trump tried he got crucified for separating families, EVEN THOUGH that's what we do in the US to our own citizens) and when we try, it gets political.

why? why is enforcing our laws so political? all i can say is it comes down to our individual insecurities and the way we've simply divided over the last 12+ years. we can't let the other side have what they want or somehow we lose what we want.

one side wants you to work for a living, the other side wants to give a basic income and welcome over millions of people w/o work or effort. i tell ya, $1k a month to a family from honduras would go a long long way wouldn't it? hell live here a year and keep 1/2 and send 1/2 home we're now exporting money to these families who are going to use it in their own country. at least i can see that scenario. hard to prove at this juncture but why wouldn't a family come over, get free $ and send it home then go back home when we run out?

one side is storing nuts for the winter and the other side is throwing their nuts at anyone they can. but it still comes back to not letting the other side have what they feel they want. other said side digs in and suddenly they won't let the first side do things and the only thing left is to spiral off into more stupidity.

and here we are.

so the border issue is much larger than a wall. at least to me and from what i know. we have a congress who refuses to work together to resolve issues and creates stances that are diametrically opposed to whatever the other side wants, even if it makes sense. our government is in chaos and the border is a reflection of people picking up the pieces as we tear things down around us.

a wall won't fix our fundamental problems of simply not trusting each other. that's on us. until we can find a way to focus on where we agree vs. where we don't this will only get worse.

the border is a crisis point. however, the border alone isn't what will kill this country. we're doing that ourselves and that's the crisis we need to understand.

given our penchant to never dig deep into problems and just react emotionally, i don't see this ending well at all.

i'm going to try and avoid doing this left or right based and just see if we can talk about the issue, conditions that have led up to it and what we can do from here.

first - i think a wall is pointless. it's akin to putting your hands over your ears and going NAH NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU ANYMORE. most walls through time were mixed in results. israel gets kudos for their big massive wall and it is. big and massive that is. in parts. at other times it's a home depot special and given we still have violence, explosions and problems - well it's not working now is it? slows down yes but fixing the problem would do the same and alleviate the need for the wall.

there are places a wall makes sense and there are places it makes much more sense to simply drone and use technology.

now - what make our immigration system so complex that people feel illegal entry is their only hope?

this makes some sense:
Why Immigration is Such a Hard Problem | The Stream
We all know that in the last few decades the US has grown lax in securing its borders and enforcing immigration laws. It’s also become a vast entitlement state, so that even immigrants who want to make a life for themselves can end up on the public dole. Many of our institutions encourage relativism and treat assimilation as some sort of racist plot.

so - we don't enforce our laws (and we don't. when trump tried he got crucified for separating families, EVEN THOUGH that's what we do in the US to our own citizens) and when we try, it gets political.

why? why is enforcing our laws so political? all i can say is it comes down to our individual insecurities and the way we've simply divided over the last 12+ years. we can't let the other side have what they want or somehow we lose what we want.

one side wants you to work for a living, the other side wants to give a basic income and welcome over millions of people w/o work or effort. i tell ya, $1k a month to a family from honduras would go a long long way wouldn't it? hell live here a year and keep 1/2 and send 1/2 home we're now exporting money to these families who are going to use it in their own country. at least i can see that scenario. hard to prove at this juncture but why wouldn't a family come over, get free $ and send it home then go back home when we run out?

one side is storing nuts for the winter and the other side is throwing their nuts at anyone they can. but it still comes back to not letting the other side have what they feel they want. other said side digs in and suddenly they won't let the first side do things and the only thing left is to spiral off into more stupidity.

and here we are.

so the border issue is much larger than a wall. at least to me and from what i know. we have a congress who refuses to work together to resolve issues and creates stances that are diametrically opposed to whatever the other side wants, even if it makes sense. our government is in chaos and the border is a reflection of people picking up the pieces as we tear things down around us.

a wall won't fix our fundamental problems of simply not trusting each other. that's on us. until we can find a way to focus on where we agree vs. where we don't this will only get worse.

the border is a crisis point. however, the border alone isn't what will kill this country. we're doing that ourselves and that's the crisis we need to understand.

given our penchant to never dig deep into problems and just react emotionally, i don't see this ending well at all.

Up until the blob made it an issue, few ever gave the border much care or concern.

Feel free to look at the threads on this board a month before Mars-Lard-Ass announced. There were almost no threads about the topic.

It’s hardly an important topic one way or the other. We had more crossings in the early auts than we do now; the result was negligible. Our GDP has doubled, our income has risen, and the DJIA has doubled as well.

It’s a crisis because we’re calling it a crisis, kidnapping children as a deterrent, and doing other ghastly things.

 

[iceberg]

'reagan' was either Stupid or conniving or his rumored 'alzheimers' was kicking in . And 'old man bush' was just conniving because its my opinion that he and the entire 'bush' familia wants as many 'mex' and hispanics , latinos in the country as possible . Purpose of that is to make 'jebito bushs' mexican wife 'columba' and family feel comfortable Iceberg .

if you want to be taken seriously, talk over the faults of all sides. pretending only 1 side is responsible is fucked up.

 

[pismoe]

and me , i always voted 'repub' until 'gwb' second run for President but 'gwb' was and is a big panderer to mexican immigration . Then of course , i did not vote for 'juan mcstain' or 'romney' . And then Trump arrived and got my vote . And then with all those 'repubs' fighting for the nomination the only good 'repub' was Ted Cruz but Trump got the nomination and Trump is better than 'hilary' and all the other 'repubs' that were running except for maybe the CRUZ Iceberg .

 

[pismoe]

'reagan' was either Stupid or conniving or his rumored 'alzheimers' was kicking in . And 'old man bush' was just conniving because its my opinion that he and the entire 'bush' familia wants as many 'mex' and hispanics , latinos in the country as possible . Purpose of that is to make 'jebito bushs' mexican wife 'columba' and family feel comfortable Iceberg .

if you want to be taken seriously, talk over the faults of all sides. pretending only 1 side is responsible is fucked up.

----------------------------- Americans like ME all know that the 'dems' are unAmerican scum . So there you go Iceberg .