Biden's nominee for ATF head is an anti-gun lobbyist who was at the Ruby Ridge standoff and Waco massacre

[BULLDOG]

Apparently, the Fucktard's pick to head the ATF is an anti-gun nut who has participated in the killing of innocent Americans (and lying about the circumstances)...

Biden ATF nominee is anti-gun lobbyist who was at Waco and lied about cult shooting down helicopters | Daily Mail Online


President of the National Association for Gun Rights Dudley Brown noted concerns regarding Chipman's role as a case agent for ATF in the Branch Davidian trial while he was based at the Waco field office.

'David Chipman has been on the leading edge of ATF scandals for decades, all the way back to Waco – and now he shills for gun confiscation with Gun Control Inc.,' Brown told Fox. 'Chipman has embraced every hair-brained gun control scheme proposed, so of course Biden and Harris chose him – he'll fit right in with their corrupt administration.'

I wonder how Beto feels about that..
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If you keep refusing common sense regulation, that might happen. You should be careful what you hope for.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You see this is the fictional bullshit which allows the government to get away with wrong doing.

It is not a tank it is an M88 recovery vehicle, essentially a large wrecker or tow truck for damaged/disabled tanks and other armored vehicles. They are not equipped with weapons especially flame throwers.

there is no explaining it away because it is a ludicrous and stupid lie to claim it had a flame thrower and the film shows no such thing.

How blind do you have to be to deny what the video very clearly shows?

There is no honest way to spin what happened in Waco as anything other than a horrendous and unmitigated act of mass murder on the part of the government, accompanied by a host of other lesser crimes leading up to it. Every government agent who had any part in this ought to have been charged with multiple[le murders, and put to death.

At least Janet Reno is now in Hell, where, hopefully, she will spend all eternity feeling her skin and her lungs being burned with no relief.

Stating fact
It is you who is blind. Any pre schooler can see there is no flame coming from the M88 it is simply a piece of debris reflecting light which snagged on the vehicle.

This complete and total proven horseshit of yours is why the government got away with wrong doing as it distracts from honest investigation.

The government has a lot to answer for at Waco it is true but not because of the lame FICTION that you are posting.

You are posting proven lies and allowing government apologists to avoid the real wrong doing.

Are you trying to be serious with this?

Stating proven fact.

nah...you are clearly ignoring the video

Wrong I am stating facts about the video which you are willfully lying about.

Then you ***** about the government getting away with murder at waco which it did. They get away with it because gullible saps like you fall for lame ******* lies. There was no flame thrower on that recovery vehicle that is a ******* fact and the video does NOT goddamned show one.

But as long as naive idiots rant about such stupidity no one really examines the wrong doing which was commited

I am merely viewing the video...and looking at what is clearly on the video.

I am not "bitching" about the Govt getting away with murder. The Clinton Admin really f-ed this up...that's all I have said...and the lives did not have to be lost.

That was not a "recovery" vehicle. It was a vehicle met to deliver military grade, CS gas.....FYI the use of CS gas was outlawed for the use on battle field...but Clinton still used it on Americans.

Made Infamous in FBI Waco Raid, CS Tear Gas Hovers at Legal Fringe

CS tear gas is outlawed on the battlefield. It can also be lethal, especially when used against children. Yet federal agents fired 400 football-siz

www.csmonitor.com

I
No you are watching the vidceo and being taken in like the sap you are. The video does not show what you claim and you know it.

I was incorrect about it being a recovery vehicle but it was not met to deliver anything either. It was an M728 engineer vehicle

M728 combat engineer vehicle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was not equipped with a flame thrower and did not shoot flame anywhere

Looks like flames to me. I never said it was shooting flames...don't believe it was...it was, as I stated there to deliver CS Gas.

It was there to deliver CS gas. The canon on it, was firing canisters of weapons grade CS gas....which was outlawed, by Clinton and the rest of the world, in 1993 for us in war....but Clinton that it was cool to use on Americans

It was not there to deliver CS they did not need it to deliver CS they had many methods of delivering CS. It was not made illegasl by Clinton it was banned in war in 1925 by the Geneva convention but it is legal for law enforcement and has always been.

The CS was delivered by grenade launchers into the building.

It does not look like flame it is nothing of the sort. You are a liar if you say otherwise

That's what it was doing...it was deliving CS gas, and also used to obviously break down walls, and stair cases, and assault the building.

Grenade launches attacked to these tanks...yes I don't think you have a clue how large these CS shells were...this was military grade CS gas...remember Clinton had signed off on using the military on the home

Assault the building and break down walls yes, deliver tear gas no.

Nope they were also used to deliver the military grade, banned CS gas into the building...it is why they rammed the walls...to get the cannons in the buildings to deliver the toxic, banned gas.

That is false.

They were not use to deliver such gas and the there is no such thing as MILITARY grade CS

well not now...since the world realized how harmful it was and banned it from use in combat in 1993...but prior to that it was used....and Clinton used it in Waco.

Wrong.

CS is CS

Nope, there are certainly different levels used in weapons...a can of mace v. massivee explosive

CS is not an explosive.

There is and never was any military grade as you claim.

Different forms of delivery but that is all

Firing a canister requires an explosion

Sure there is...as a I stated, a bullet is a bullet...but there is a difference between a 9mm and a 50 cal

There is and never was any military grade CS and none was ever released by en explosive

Sorry, LEO doesn't have military grade...that are fired out of tanks.

Tanks don't fire CS

Slide 5

Below is a picture of what the US Abrams tank uses

The armored vehicles used by the government at Waco did inject CS gas into the compound when they breached the walls.

After the first tank assault came the ferret rounds. FBI agents, riding inside M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles, began shooting 40mm ferret rounds containing CS tear gas into every available window at Mount Carmel. (CS gas gets its name from the two American scientists who invented it -- B.B. Corson and R.W. Stoughton.) The agents used Army-issue grenade launchers to fire the projectiles, each of which contained 3.7 grams of CS gas dissolved in 33 grams of the solvent methylene chloride. Over the next six hours, the FBI shot about 400 ferret rounds at Mount Carmel. About 375 of them made it inside. The second assault came at 7:30am. More ferret rounds were shot inside the building while the tanks shot in six more canisters filled with tear gas. Doyle recalled the panic inside as men, women, and children tried to find refuge from the gas. "There were no masks for the children," recalled Doyle.

Lethal Weapon

FBI's Use of Tear Gas Questioned at Davidian Trial

www.austinchronicle.com

C.S. isn’t named for anyone. The US military used two letter designations for it's gases. CN was for the original tear gas that was discontinued because it could be lethal in high concentrations. C.S. for the harmless gas that replaced it. DM for a riot control vomiting agent. BZ for a non-lethal incapacitating agent that produced results like a LSD trip. Lethal gases also had two letter designations, but I can’t remember them.

 

[Soupnazi630]

They were not nazis and there is no evidence they broke those laws.

The ATF were not brave they were attacking people to save their careers. The FBI merely tried to clean up the mess.

No, they were getting guns out of the hands of dangerous people. That's kind of their job. It's even in the name of their bureau.

Wrong. They were not dangerous and it is not their job to do so whatsoever.

 

[Rigby5]

Wrong.
The BATF opened fire indiscriminately first, not the Branch Davidians.
The Branch Davidians likely violated no law and committed no criminal act.

Watch the video more carefully.
There are 2 scenes where BATF enter the 2nd story window.
The first is unopposed and there are no bullet holes in the wall left of the window.
The second BATF group on the roof starts firing and gets return fire from the other BATF already inside.
That is when you see the holes in the wall.

I find this kind of amusing is that you clowns on the right defend every killing of a black person by a thug police officer as "Well, he should have obeyed the law".

The ATF was there with a valid warrant. You come out with your hands up and let them find whatever the hell it is they are looking for. THEN you fight the issue in court if you actually think you have a leg to stand on. You don't go getting into a firefight with them.

The whole credibility of the BATF case is lost when the underage sex stuff if brought up.
That is not part of the case, there is no testimony or evidence, and if it were at all true, that would have had vastly higher priority than a minor gun tax violation.
So then it likely is not at all true, but instead an attempt to slander the dead.

Actually, it's not even a disputable point. David Koresh fathered three children on Michelle Jones, whom he started having sex with when she was 12.

Sports

Sports news, analysis, rumors, statistics, predictions and roster moves around the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL and more.

heavy.com

There is also the testimony of Keri Jewel, who Koresh molested when she was 10.

The BATF sent bus loads of fully armed mercenaries into a multi family compound.
That is outrageous.
Just like Ruby Ridge, the BATF and FBI are way out of control and a clear and present danger to society.

Ruby Ridge were a bunch of Nazis.
Waco were a bunch of whacked out, child molesting cultists.

Nobody misses any of them.

Wrong about everything.
First of all, I am far left of everyone here and this has noting to do with right wing, because Koresh was not right wing at all.

And no, the BATF did not have a valid warrant for their assault on the Waco compound.
While they were experimenting with trying to make AR-15s full auto, they had not sold any yet, so had violated no law.

And it was very clear the BATF started shooting first, including wounding Koresh.
The BATF clearly was not out to search or arrest, but to murder people.

Michelle Jones was 18 at the time of her murder by the FBI, so it is too late to try to claim that child abuse had anything at all to do with the illegal BATF raid.
If there had been anything illegal about sexual conduct on records, then it would not have been right for the BAFT to raid.
Local authorities should have dealt with sexual misconduct first.
So it likely simply is not true.
After the fact, there would have been lots of pressure for people to lie in order to cover up the BATF crimes.

And no, Randy Weaver was not a "bunch of Nazis.
He had recently been the local sheriff and he lived a fairly normal life with a family.
And again there was no valid warrant.
Sure he has shortened a shotgun barrel a quarter inch shorter than the legal 18 inches, but that is not illegal.
If never assembled, or if a muzzle break is installed before assembly, or it is used to launch grappling hooks, etc., there is nothing illegal about shortening a shotgun barrel.

Face facts.
Waco and Ruby Ridge people were not hurting anyone and the BATF is.
It is the BATF who are the clear and present, trigger happy, danger.
And they still are.

 

[Rigby5]

Actually, that does seem to be the folks you're siding with.

Naw, I'm siding with the brave men and women of the FBI and ATF.

You are siding with Nazis and Cultists who can't obey our gun laws.

Wrong.
We all saw the BATF shooting first, when not only was no one shooting at them, but no one had committed any crime at all.

 

[Rigby5]

Both were clear overreactions by the Federal Government to relatively minor crimes that could have been handled quietly by local law enforcement. Hell at Waco Janet Reno was trying to bring in Regular Army troops which is against the law and then "borrowed" armored vehicles from the Texas National Guard when the Army refused to violate Posse Comitatus.

Um, let's get real. They had to borrow armored vehicles because Koresh and his buddies were armed to the teeth with semi-automatic weapons.

Now, could the ATF handled this better? Yup. But I think the biggest problem is that they worked on the assumption that the Davidians were rational people who could be reasoned with and not a bunch of nuts who thought that the world was going to end in 1999. So they fairly reasonably thought if they showed up with enough agents, the Davidians would cooperate instead of having an insane shootout followed by mass suicide.

Wrong again.
Even after seeing proof the BATF fired first, badly wounding Koresh, you still keep claiming the BATF did not fire first.
You lose.

 

[Rigby5]

The FBI obviously started the fires with CS canisters that burn to produce the irritating gases.
The fact the investigation claimed that the branch Davidians had to have started the fire because there was more than one ignition point, makes no sense at all because the FBI fired over a dozens of these hot burning canisters into the compound.

{...
The events of the siege and attack are disputed by various sources. A particular controversy ensued over the origin of the fire; an internal Justice Department investigation concluded in 2000 that incendiary tear gas canisters were used by the FBI, but maintained that sect members had started the fire.[13] This came after a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it simultaneously in at least three different areas of the compound.
...}

The attack also happened at night, and the FBI had cut electrical power, forcing the Branch Davidians to use lanterns.
Then in order to fire the CS into the buildings, the FBI smashed holes in the walls.
Which then could easily have knocked over some of these lanterns.
There is no indication at all that the Branch Davidians committed suicide.
Murder by the FBI is the only conclusion any one with an open mind can come to.

 

[Rigby5]

Actually, that does seem to be the folks you're siding with.

Naw, I'm siding with the brave men and women of the FBI and ATF.

You are siding with Nazis and Cultists who can't obey our gun laws.

Who is the Nazi, the ex-sheriff who legally shortens a shotgun barrel upon request, or Lon Horiuchi who shoots and kills an unarmed and innocent woman who hold open the door for her running husband?

 

[Rigby5]

The highest gun law in this nation is the Second Amendment.

So who is really siding with those who can't obey the law?

Okay, the second amendment calls for "Well-Regulated Militias". I'm all for well-regulated militias, I was a member of one for years.

Whacky cultists selling illegally modified automatic weapons at gun shows is not "Well-Regulated", Mormon Bob.

You keep saying that but it was not true the first time.
Never had any proof been shown that Koresh ever sold any illegal weapons or violated any law.

The 2nd amendment does not "call for" anything.
All the articles in the Bill of Rights are restrictions on the federal government.
So then the point of the 2nd amendment has to be only to ban all federal firearms jurisdiction.
That is the only possible intent.

 

[Rigby5]

The Branch Davidians not only did not fire first, but tried to stop the shooting and were ignored.

{...
During the first shots, Koresh was wounded, shot in the hand and the stomach. Within a minute of the raid's start, Branch Davidian Wayne Martin called emergency services, pleading for them to stop shooting.[54] Martin asked for a ceasefire, and audiotapes record him saying, "Here they come again!" and, "That's them shooting! That's not us!"[54]
...}

 

[Ziggy]

Probably off topic a bit, but what got me was when they mocked Donald Trump for saying he had more confidence in the russian intelligence than he did in the intelligence that had been installed in our government.
That's saying a lot.
He was warning us. Been warning us the whole time.
Every speech, every rally.. waking people up.

I don't know what made me think of that. Maybe just the way the conversation was going.
Thanks for listening anyways
Hugs

 

[freyasman]

It's a tax agency, stupid.

Actually, it was removed from Dept. of Treasury and reassigned to Department of Justice in 2002...

Then you are mentally ill.

Given all the crazy stuff you post, I'll take it with a grain of salt.

And now for fun, more Branch Davidian Jokes.


What Does WACO stand for?

1. We Ain't Comin' Out
2. We All Cremated Ourselves
3. When Attacked, CookOut!


What are they gonna call the TV Miniseries about David Koresh?

"A Match Made in Heaven"


What kind of pants do Branch Davidian's wear?

Charred-Ash Jeans


What were David KorASH's Last Words?

"No, Bud Light!"
"Just kidding, I'm not really God."
"OW!!!!" <- best guess.


What do David KorASH and Burger King Whopper have in common?

They are both flame broiled.

You know how I'm pretty sure I got on an FBI list?
When I was in Bagram between missions I went over to the FBI's compound looking for a friend of mine (who just happened to the only female FBI agent there at the time) and some of the male agents, who were sitting on lawn chairs around a BBQ pit, decided to talk a little shit about the scoped M14 on my back, calling me "Murder Inc.". I said; "Oh we got jokes, huh?........ I looked at the BBQ pit and said; "I thought you FBI guys only did cook outs when ya'll were down around Waco."
One of the bigger agents scowled and stood up from his chair to square up with me, saying: "You think that's funny?", and adjusting his holster as he did so. I slid my M14 around to the front of me and smiled at them and said; "You're kidding me, right?"
About that time my friend the female agent stepped between us and suggested to me that we take a walk. I told her she might want to remind her coworkers that we weren't in the US and they weren't shit there, whereas I had an entire battalion of paratroopers backing me up.
About 3 months after I got back from that deployment, I learned that I was on file with the feds.


Petty little tyrants, ain't they?

Oh well...... **** 'em if they can't take a joke.

That doesn't sound like a silly made up story at all -------no, I really mean that

Lol.....


Life's like that sometimes.

 

[freyasman]

Apparently, the Fucktard's pick to head the ATF is an anti-gun nut who has participated in the killing of innocent Americans (and lying about the circumstances)...

Biden ATF nominee is anti-gun lobbyist who was at Waco and lied about cult shooting down helicopters | Daily Mail Online


President of the National Association for Gun Rights Dudley Brown noted concerns regarding Chipman's role as a case agent for ATF in the Branch Davidian trial while he was based at the Waco field office.

'David Chipman has been on the leading edge of ATF scandals for decades, all the way back to Waco – and now he shills for gun confiscation with Gun Control Inc.,' Brown told Fox. 'Chipman has embraced every hair-brained gun control scheme proposed, so of course Biden and Harris chose him – he'll fit right in with their corrupt administration.'

I wonder how Beto feels about that..
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If you keep refusing common sense regulation, that might happen. You should be careful what you hope for.

LOLOLOLOL



You can't count can you?
I suggest you look up an essay by Paul Howe called, " Koolaid drinkers and the 2nd Amendment" sometime.

 

[Batcat]

For some reason that doesn’t surprise me in the least.

However if the dems push gun control too hard they will lose big in 2022. Lots of liberals are first time gun buyers and guns are not cheap so they will not want to see them banned and confiscated or taxed. Those gun buyers will likely want to see more police on the streets too to control the rising crime rate.

Might be a tidal wave of support for the Republican Party coming up shortly. We might even get Trump back in the Oval Office. If not I would be happy with My Governor Ron DeSantis.

 

[JoeB131]

You know how I'm pretty sure I got on an FBI list?
When I was in Bagram between missions I went over to the FBI's compound looking for a friend of mine (who just happened to the only female FBI agent there at the time) and some of the male agents, who were sitting on lawn chairs around a BBQ pit, decided to talk a little shit about the scoped M14 on my back, calling me "Murder Inc.". I said; "Oh we got jokes, huh?........ I looked at the BBQ pit and said; "I thought you FBI guys only did cook outs when ya'll were down around Waco."
One of the bigger agents scowled and stood up from his chair to square up with me, saying: "You think that's funny?", and adjusting his holster as he did so. I slid my M14 around to the front of me and smiled at them and said; "You're kidding me, right?"
About that time my friend the female agent stepped between us and suggested to me that we take a walk. I told her she might want to remind her coworkers that we weren't in the US and they weren't shit there, whereas I had an entire battalion of paratroopers backing me up.
About 3 months after I got back from that deployment, I learned that I was on file with the feds.


Petty little tyrants, ain't they?

Oh well...... **** 'em if they can't take a joke.

Uh, yeah. I remember another guy in the service who was obsessed about Waco.

His name was Timothy McVeigh. I'm sure someone wished they had started a file on him.

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong. They were not dangerous and it is not their job to do so whatsoever.

Actually, the Davidians had previously been involved in a shootout with a rival faction of their cult over a dead body. That's what got them on the ATF radar to start with.


As an attempt to regain support, Roden challenged Howell (Koresh) to raise the dead, going so far as to exhume the corpse of a two-decades deceased Davidian in order to demonstrate his spiritual supremacy. This illegal act gave Howell an opportunity to attempt to file charges against Roden, but he was told that he needed evidence in order to substantiate the charges. On November 3, 1987, Howell and seven of his followers raided Mount Carmel, equipped with five .223 caliber semi-automatic rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition, in an apparent attempt to retake the compound. Although Howell's group claimed that it was trying to obtain evidence of Roden's illegal activities, its members did not take a camera with them.[14]

 

[JoeB131]

For some reason that doesn’t surprise me in the least.

However if the dems push gun control too hard they will lose big in 2022. Lots of liberals are first time gun buyers and guns are not cheap so they will not want to see them banned and confiscated or taxed. Those gun buyers will likely want to see more police on the streets too to control the rising crime rate.

Might be a tidal wave of support for the Republican Party coming up shortly. We might even get Trump back in the Oval Office. If not I would be happy with My Governor Ron DeSantis.

Um, no.

First, I really don't think this congress is going to do anything on gun control.

Secondly, they'll probably lose the house no matter what they do. So they might as well pass all the laws they can now. The most a president will ever get done is in his first two years.

Third, the GOP hasn't won the popular vote since 2004... 2016 was a fluke, not a movement.

 

[Batcat]

If they don’t pass gun legislation this year I doubt they will try next year because of the midterm elections.

In order to pass gun legislation this year they likely will have to do away with the filibuster. All bets are off if they do that.

 

[bendog]

Apparently, the Fucktard's pick to head the ATF is an anti-gun nut who has participated in the killing of innocent Americans (and lying about the circumstances)...

Biden ATF nominee is anti-gun lobbyist who was at Waco and lied about cult shooting down helicopters | Daily Mail Online


President of the National Association for Gun Rights Dudley Brown noted concerns regarding Chipman's role as a case agent for ATF in the Branch Davidian trial while he was based at the Waco field office.

'David Chipman has been on the leading edge of ATF scandals for decades, all the way back to Waco – and now he shills for gun confiscation with Gun Control Inc.,' Brown told Fox. 'Chipman has embraced every hair-brained gun control scheme proposed, so of course Biden and Harris chose him – he'll fit right in with their corrupt administration.'

I might have responded postively to substance had the OP bothered to raise any.

 

[freyasman]

You know how I'm pretty sure I got on an FBI list?
When I was in Bagram between missions I went over to the FBI's compound looking for a friend of mine (who just happened to the only female FBI agent there at the time) and some of the male agents, who were sitting on lawn chairs around a BBQ pit, decided to talk a little shit about the scoped M14 on my back, calling me "Murder Inc.". I said; "Oh we got jokes, huh?........ I looked at the BBQ pit and said; "I thought you FBI guys only did cook outs when ya'll were down around Waco."
One of the bigger agents scowled and stood up from his chair to square up with me, saying: "You think that's funny?", and adjusting his holster as he did so. I slid my M14 around to the front of me and smiled at them and said; "You're kidding me, right?"
About that time my friend the female agent stepped between us and suggested to me that we take a walk. I told her she might want to remind her coworkers that we weren't in the US and they weren't shit there, whereas I had an entire battalion of paratroopers backing me up.
About 3 months after I got back from that deployment, I learned that I was on file with the feds.


Petty little tyrants, ain't they?

Oh well...... **** 'em if they can't take a joke.

Uh, yeah. I remember another guy in the service who was obsessed about Waco.

His name was Timothy McVeigh. I'm sure someone wished they had started a file on him.

See that?
I relate an anecdote about a joke I told, and you're try to characterize that as me being "obsessed" , lol.
Your bullshit never stops, does it? (smh)

And I notice that you only criticize those of us who have a problem with agents of the state attacking (and yeah...... several dozen armed men rushing your residence is an attack; you don't get to pretend it's not) and killing almost a hundred people who hadn't been convicted of a damn thing, but you don't seem to have much criticism for the government that actually did it.










I bet if all the people at that compound in Waco had been black, you'd be singing a different tune.