Bible Questions

[emilynghiem]

Unless you have been tasked with authoring a further revised bible, your re-writing of the current bibles is flawed.

The tree in the genesis fable is the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The part you left out, "... of good and evil" is important because the gods had already created evil prior to *poofing* A&E into existence. Have you ever actually studied the genesis fable?

Per the existing fable (not your revised version), god gave A&E (not the cable station), neither the ability to make a considered choice nor did he bother to tell them the consequences would extend to every person born after them...

Simply remember the foundations of your Theism--The curse of all humanity for the actions of the "first" man and woman to use their free will to gain knowledge-- The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Ever notice that in the Genesis story Yahweh doesn't bother to tell A&E there would be consequences of massive -- in fact -- eternal proportions (we don't get the "Oh, yeah, by the way, there is a Hell, Okaay?" information until waaay too late)? Ever notice that, bereft of knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit of the tree, they can't tell what constitutes a "good" or "bad" behavior in the first place?

Dear Hollie and Gracie:
to explain in simplest terms i know
when kids are under the protective authority of parents during development
we may get them to follow instructions by blind obedience and fear of punishment
kids cant be expected to know what germs are if they eat off the floor
or why some things are no-no's

later on, then people develop ability to reason and learn by experience
so we can choose by conscience not by force or threat of punishment

so this is how would explain the difference in stages of maturity
between adam/eve when humanity first developed awareness of right/wrong
and where we are after Jesus came to fulfill the process of reaching
spiritual maturity where we can make choices by fully informed consent
and we can now renconcile our human will with God's will through Christ

you are right, it makes little sense to punish kids for doing things when they
did not and could not have understood the consequences

but in early stages of teaching laws, that is how you teach young souls who
don't yet have the experience to understand more fully
you teach by fear and blindly obeying authority

now that humanity is reaching final stages of maturity
we learn and teach by sharing experiences and examples so
we choose freely by reason and comparison of the consequences
of right or wrong actions, not by emotional force or fear

 

[emilynghiem]

REVISED: Gracie I'm still trying to answer your questions about which scriptures are good for reading to understanding how great God's love is.

the one most people cite is John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

also John 12:47
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

================================
If you don't mind going on a scavenger hunt to find these scriptures in the Bible, these are the ones that come to mind:
A. All the Creation passages, where you can understand that all things in Creation, every soul with our strengths and weaknesses and unique gifts,
are all made by God with LOVE to work in perfect harmony. So even as you may find disturbing things in the Bible about problems from humanity's past,
just knowing that even these bad things lead to a huge happy ending with salvation for all OUTWEIGHS all the pain/suffering from the past.
So no matter how bad things are or look, God's love is GREATER than all that.
B. Perfect love casts out all fear. I cited tihs before, that God's love is so great it conquers any fear, any evil, any negative thing
that may come between us and God, even death, any injustice any hatred or completely evil destructive vengeance that was unfair to the people.
If you read the news and see things that are unforgiveable, if you can imagine that all these htings are eventually healed in God's love and grace
that is how great, unconditional and all-inclusive these are that all injustices are overcome with God's lvoe and forgivness through Christ
C. When Jesus said what we do for the least among us we do for him. And if we receive a little child who comes in his name, we receive Jesus.
So just the smallest acts of charity have this great impact of bringing Jesus unconditional love and salvation through Grace into our lives.
D. Charity is the greatest love of all. the passage in Corinthians that love is patient, and endures all things.
that love wins over all things.
E. where Jesus is sacrificed and just prays for forgiveness for all people.
and before he goes to the Cross, his prayer in preparation where he asks God one last time if there is any way to avoid this,
to take this cup from him. This is not to be cruel, it is to show us that ven Jesus had to choose freely in order to follow
God's will which is not forced. God trusts us to use our free will to choose, we were created with FREE WILL which is
the greatest gift at the greatest price. So this speaks to God's love to go through this sacrifice that our FREE WILL can be perfected.
F. natural laws that God gives us also.
I see the constitutional laws as given by God so we could develop a perfect democratic system and learn to manage
ourselves and also share this gift with the world.
again FREE WILL and govt based on consent is a gift from God.
He created us with free will conscience and reason to use our gifts to make decisions democratically by agreement,
and informed consent/educated choice. what a wondrous gift that is that we have
free exercise of religion or free will (equal executive power)
freedom of the press (equal legislative power to write our own laws and contracts)
free speech (equal judicial power to speak our opinions of law and bleiefs of justice right and wrong)

I find everyone's opinions fascinating and worth pondering. How else does one come to conclusions they accept for themselves?

Personally, I have always considered myself semi pagan, semi christian. I, too, lean toward Native American beliefs...and I also lean toward Jewish beliefs in some form...as well as other faiths and religions, etc. I am no one label. I follow where my heart and inner desire leads. I believe very much in the Lord God and His son Jesus. Not sure about the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit or the deeper stuff that goes along with it. I thought and think it is time to know GOD more. And what He so needed to say to us when he sent Jesus.

I am no scholar. But I want to learn more. Hence...this thread.

Dear Gracie: If you are trying to look at the Bible in terms of "teachings that Jesus brought" you may miss the point of Jesus unique purpose. Anyone can teach that divine forgiveness breaks the retributive cycle of karma/sin and that unconditional love and compassion transforms people and society. What makes Jesus central is that he is the unique manifestation and embodiment of that process for all humanity. What other religions may also teach, Jesus fulfills by giving us the capacity to embrace and embody laws by conscience and receive unconditional love and forgiveness in our relations with others.

As for what the Holy Spirit represents, the Healing Harmony and Comfort that brings peace to us and unites humanity is what follows from receiving divine forgiveness in Christ Jesus. As we receive divine Justice with Mercy/Peace, both of these go hand in hand.

Truth and Love
Wisdom and Compassion
Justice with Mercy or Peace and Justice

They go together.

I guess the key thing id like most to share with you is that Jesus as Lord of all lords
governs and fulfills ALL laws, both scriptural divine laws
and also secular natural laws such as our civil laws are based upon.

Once you understand there is one God as the source of all laws, then these are all fulfilled in the spirit of Truth and Justice that God/Jesus represent.

I pray you find the wisdom and understanding you are looking for.
I don't think it is in the literal letter of the laws so much as it is in the universal message
which the Bible represents as the spiritual history of humanity from beginning to end.

 

[numan]

So for my very first question....

And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness....]

Who is US and OUR?

'
The reason that the Deity (Elohim) is plural in Genesis is that it is a fossil remnant of the multiple gods in the original Babylonian creation myth whence Genesis derives.

Panbabylonism

Panbabylonists believe the creation myth in the Book of Genesis came from older Mesopotamian creation myths. The Mesopotamian creation myths are recorded in the Enûma Elisˇ (or Enuma Elish), the Atra-Hasis, the 'Eridu Genesis' and on the 'Barton Cylinder'. Although the plots are different, there are similarities between the Mesopotamian and Jewish myths.

In the beginning of both myths the universe is shapeless and there is nothing but water. In the beginning of Enûma Elisˇ there is Abzu (freshwater) and Tiamat (saltwater), which mingle together. In the beginning of Genesis, "darkness was over the surface of the deep" and the Jewish god Yahweh is "hovering over the waters".[Genesis 1:2] It has been argued that the Hebrew word for "the deep", tehom, is cognate with tiamat.

In the Enûma Elisˇ there are six generations of gods, created one after the other. Each god is associated with something, such as sky or earth. This parallels the six days of creation in Genesis, where Elohim (plural) creates a different thing on each day.

In the Enûma Elisˇ, the sixth-generation god Marduk consults with other gods and decides to make mankind as servants, so that the gods can rest. Likewise, Elohim makes mankind on the sixth day (saying "let us make mankind in our image") and then rests.

The more entertaining reason that God is plural derives from the Doctrine of the Trinity · ·

The Fourth Council of Constantinople occurred in the ninth century --- it was the Council which condemned the doctrine of the double procession of the Holy Ghost which the heretical Roman Church still professes --- the so-called Filioque Controversy.

It was not, however, the Fourth Œcumenical Council --- that took place in 451 AD at Chalcedon. It was the council which proclaimed the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ, human and divine.

The three Persons (or more correctly, three hypostases) of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are joined indissolubly by their perichôresis into One Substance, but, curiously, there are two distinct and separate Natures in Christ --- human and divine.

Fortunately, these two natures are always in complete accord --- otherwise the Deity would be a victim of Multiple Personality Disorder. ·

So, if anyone falsely believes that Christ has only one nature, rather than two: You are a heretic

In Greek, the term "perichôresis" means the mutual interpentration or sublation of the three Hypostases of the Godhead into One Substance, or "Ousia".

If the "ô" of "perichôresis" were an omicron rather than an ômega, then the term would mean that the Three Persons of the Trinity would be dancing in and through each other in their One Substance. I rather like that idea.

There is a flavor of that idea in the Latin translation, "circumincession" -- too bad the similarity to another word causes my private parts to shrink up a little.

From the point of view of epistemology, it is hard to imagine knowing one thing, and one thing only. If all that existed was an undifferentiated "something," there would be no "you" to know it, since "you" would be a second thing. So "one-thing" appears to be identical to "no-thing."

But if you are a second thing, "knowing" an undifferentiated unity, your awareness appears to be vacuous and still equivalent to no-thing.

The minimum possible state of awareness seems to consist of three things : some contrastive duality, and an awareness of that duality.

The kernel of truth in the Doctrine of the Trinity? · ·

"The One was compelled to do with the Two,
Three was the Seer, and Who was it For?"
----Ahem! Modesty forbids!
.

 

[Gracie]

I am not ignoring anyone when I don't reply. Mostly I am reading with a deer in headlights look on my face.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Numan:

1. Thanks for your explanation using ELOHIM as plural which
makes more sense in context than the trinity which was popularized later.

One group I found that teaches the historic hebrew names of God as
Yahweh
Yeshua
Elohim
would agree with you that Elohim is plural for a reason.

If Jesus/Yeshua is Lord of all other lords or laws/authorities
it's ok to have gods/plural meaning all these lesser sublaws that are still under
Jesus as the unique divine authority of god's justice for all these other authorites of laws.

Even though all 3 manifestations are the same God not 3,
I find it less confusing to keep the creator role under God as Heavenly Father
and not mix that in with the other two positions as I've seen ppl do,
like using Jesus as Creator which is too confusing to me.

1.

So for my very first question....

And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness....]

Who is US and OUR?

'
The reason that the Deity (Elohim) is plural in Genesis is that it is a fossil remnant of the multiple gods in the original Babylonian creation myth whence Genesis derives.

2. RE: Christ having two natures divine and human

I see this division as projected onto Christ from our human perspective
because WE are the ones dividing the two realms, God's divine laws from God's natural laws. Both come from the same God, and Jesus as divine justice governs and fulfills both.
Any perceived division conflict or disharmony comes from man made political differences.

2.

The Fourth Council of Constantinople occurred in the ninth century --- it was the Council which condemned the doctrine of the double procession of the Holy Ghost which the heretical Roman Church still professes --- the so-called Filioque Controversy.

It was not, however, the Fourth Œcumenical Council --- that took place in 451 AD at Chalcedon. It was the council which proclaimed the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ, human and divine.

The three Persons (or more correctly, three hypostases) of Father, Son and Holy Ghost are joined indissolubly by their perichôresis into One Substance, but, curiously, there are two distinct and separate Natures in Christ --- human and divine.

Fortunately, these two natures are always in complete accord ....

On this note, I will slip in that interpretation of the Cross that juxtaposes Christ being the central fulfillment of man's laws and god's laws at the same time so these are distinct
but there is no conflict, since Jesus reconciles both together.

A Lutheran Pastor explained the Cross this way:
A. that the vertical up and down bar represents man's relation with God where Jesus
is in the center of that bar on the Cross. This reminds us that between God and man, God's forgiveness and gift of grace is given freely through Christ and is not earned.
B. while the horizontal bar going across, again with Jesus in the midst, symbolizes our relations with each other as neighbors joined in Christ. Here, however, if we do wrong against our neighbor we may owe correction and restitution, we do not simply assume we are forgiven freely with no conditions attached. in order to restore peace and justice, we may owe debts or reparations to resolve the issues.

So in short, even though there is this difference between the spiritual relations between man and God under divine laws of grace and salvation; and the earthly relations between humans under natural or civil laws of justice, Jesus is simultaneously in the center of both relations at the same time.

So that is the interpretation of Christianity and the Cross I like to share with ppl because it includes and explains both the divine laws of believers which Jesus fulfills equally as the natural laws that also govern secular gentiles and nontheists so nobody is left out.
These are distinct while they are both joined and fulfilled by Christ in the Center.

 

[emilynghiem]

Congratulations to Quantum Windbag on being the 1st to qualify for the ignore list. This list is reserved for stalkers, trolls, flamers and other malcontents who provide nothing of value. Have a nice life.

Dear DT to be fair to QW I've also urged not to keep posting jab remarks,
I don't think your assessment was fair in writing QW off as providing nothing of value.
While I disagree with personal jabs and other off remarks denouncing you unfairly,
QW did actual state opinions and views of the topic, in between the crap that was off base.

I was really hoping to branch off a new thread and continue answering QW sincere
objections. Can we still do that, or not yet? If it helps to address the issues with mocking at the same time, I don't mind that either. May I ask if we need a new thread or work on this outside the forum to organize real groups in real life? I already bought domain names to start separate websites for consensusonlaw and consensusongod since the same process would address both. It may be easier to present position papers first to church leaders for a consensus on god, since that unity is needed first in order to support the reconciliation work it takes to reach consensus on laws through state and party reps on more issues.

Instead of criticizing either you or QW for jabbing and taunting each other's ego's I really should apologize instead, and compliment you both for how civilly you dish on each other in comparison to how much you obviously do set off or grate the other person's senses.

Sorry I wish it got better, but given how much worse I've seen ppl get over less, I should not complain but be glad we can share at all over issues that normally do push buttons!

Thank you DT
sorry for the overly drawn out msgs and hope we can pinpoint the key issues
from now on. I really do appreciate your helpful gift in editing down to the crux.
Let me know if a new thread would help, or if QW needs to resolve the old thread first
as referenced in previous msgs complaining about walking off and not finishing, okay?

 

[amrchaos]

I got a bible from my sister as a gift. I am going to start reading it soon and have started briefly..little at a time. To mentally digest, so to speak. I am spiritual but the bible itself I don't take much stock in. Why read it, then, you may ask? Because I can learn things. Some I will take at face value, some I will be suspicious about because...in my opinion...it was written BY man FOR man. And no man was perfect and had agendas since the beginning of time..which means all those translations can't be perfectly correct.

Anyway..I digress. I am going to read it...maybe hopping around, maybe from front to back. I won't know until I delve in to it more. So this is where you guys come in. The ones that DO believe the bible wholeheartedly. I ask for opinions. Some I will accept. Some I will not. Depends on what feels "right" to me, since I also believe each person has their own path, their own beliefs, their own gut instinct of what seems to be right for them..individually.

So for my very first question, here is a quote that made me stop reading for awhile until I digest what your opinions are in the meaning of the following:

26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”27And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

1. Who is US and OUR?
2. If God is spiritual and not flesh and blood...how does a spirit have form to look humanoid?

This is only a supposition--and not from a "believer of Text" as some may describe a believer.

Genesis is a collection of useful myths and beliefs BEFORE the religious establishment of judaism. The part you are referencing is probably taken from a polytheistic religion such as that of the Sumerians whose creation myths and floods are suspiciously similiar to that in Genesis. Also the names of some of Abrahams forefathers are also similiar to the names of cities that were establish in the region that Sumeria ocupied.

In short, any written before the Books of Moses or relating to the history of the Hebrews/Jews can be considered pre-Judaic literature and maybe considered pagan ruffrage that was taken in to answer questions that were impossible to answer without guessing.

You can ignore this post if you wish since I am interfering.

 

[BreezeWood]

In the Enûma Elisˇ there are six generations of gods, created one after the other. Each god is associated with something, such as sky or earth. This parallels the six days of creation in Genesis, where Elohim (plural) creates a different thing on each day.

In the Enûma Elisˇ, the sixth-generation god Marduk consults with other gods and decides to make mankind as servants, so that the gods can rest. Likewise, Elohim makes mankind on the sixth day (saying "let us make mankind in our image") and then rests.

thanks, numan


the above certainly coincides with God's Creation the Garden - the Everlasting, variety as with gods and allothers included.



there are six generations of gods, created one after the other.

no, there are as many gods as Beings who accomplish the feat, not created - in accordance by the Almighty.


... and decides to make mankind as servants

makes no sense at all - bad Apples in that one too.


to bad the Bible is so narrowly defined to Mankind and not more descriptive of the goals of life that are attainable.

 

[Gracie]

I got a bible from my sister as a gift. I am going to start reading it soon and have started briefly..little at a time. To mentally digest, so to speak. I am spiritual but the bible itself I don't take much stock in. Why read it, then, you may ask? Because I can learn things. Some I will take at face value, some I will be suspicious about because...in my opinion...it was written BY man FOR man. And no man was perfect and had agendas since the beginning of time..which means all those translations can't be perfectly correct.

Anyway..I digress. I am going to read it...maybe hopping around, maybe from front to back. I won't know until I delve in to it more. So this is where you guys come in. The ones that DO believe the bible wholeheartedly. I ask for opinions. Some I will accept. Some I will not. Depends on what feels "right" to me, since I also believe each person has their own path, their own beliefs, their own gut instinct of what seems to be right for them..individually.

So for my very first question, here is a quote that made me stop reading for awhile until I digest what your opinions are in the meaning of the following:

26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”27And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

1. Who is US and OUR?
2. If God is spiritual and not flesh and blood...how does a spirit have form to look humanoid?

This is only a supposition--and not from a "believer of Text" as some may describe a believer.

Genesis is a collection of useful myths and beliefs BEFORE the religious establishment of judaism. The part you are referencing is probably taken from a polytheistic religion such as that of the Sumerians whose creation myths and floods are suspiciously similiar to that in Genesis. Also the names of some of Abrahams forefathers are also similiar to the names of cities that were establish in the region that Sumeria ocupied.

In short, any written before the Books of Moses or relating to the history of the Hebrews/Jews can be considered pre-Judaic literature and maybe considered pagan ruffrage that was taken in to answer questions that were impossible to answer without guessing.

You can ignore this post if you wish since I am interfering.

You are not interfering. There is much (from my own limited understanding and from what I have heard said throughout the years) that relates to what you just said and should be considered. Thank you for your input.

 

[Foxfyre]

I got a bible from my sister as a gift. I am going to start reading it soon and have started briefly..little at a time. To mentally digest, so to speak. I am spiritual but the bible itself I don't take much stock in. Why read it, then, you may ask? Because I can learn things. Some I will take at face value, some I will be suspicious about because...in my opinion...it was written BY man FOR man. And no man was perfect and had agendas since the beginning of time..which means all those translations can't be perfectly correct.

Anyway..I digress. I am going to read it...maybe hopping around, maybe from front to back. I won't know until I delve in to it more. So this is where you guys come in. The ones that DO believe the bible wholeheartedly. I ask for opinions. Some I will accept. Some I will not. Depends on what feels "right" to me, since I also believe each person has their own path, their own beliefs, their own gut instinct of what seems to be right for them..individually.

So for my very first question, here is a quote that made me stop reading for awhile until I digest what your opinions are in the meaning of the following:

26 And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”27And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

1. Who is US and OUR?
2. If God is spiritual and not flesh and blood...how does a spirit have form to look humanoid?

This is only a supposition--and not from a "believer of Text" as some may describe a believer.

Genesis is a collection of useful myths and beliefs BEFORE the religious establishment of judaism. The part you are referencing is probably taken from a polytheistic religion such as that of the Sumerians whose creation myths and floods are suspiciously similiar to that in Genesis. Also the names of some of Abrahams forefathers are also similiar to the names of cities that were establish in the region that Sumeria ocupied.

In short, any written before the Books of Moses or relating to the history of the Hebrews/Jews can be considered pre-Judaic literature and maybe considered pagan ruffrage that was taken in to answer questions that were impossible to answer without guessing.

You can ignore this post if you wish since I am interfering.

You are not interfering. There is much (from my own limited understanding and from what I have heard said throughout the years) that relates to what you just said and should be considered. Thank you for your input.

Amrchaos does offer one of the many theories surrounding the stories of Genesis and also the festivals and customs of both Judaism and Christianity.

My own research suggests that while the stories of Genesis can be taken as literal--and I have no problem with those who do--they can also be taken as allegory or mythical teachings to explain why things are the way they are and/or to teach universal principles of God's law that all the ancient Hebrew/Jewish people were taught from the time they were old enough to learn anything.

I don't personally embrace the theory that they were 'pre-Judaism' stories though. The ancients used oral tradition to pass down the stories--and because that was the way they kept their histories, they were very competent with that--until they used a variation of the Phoenician alphabet (around 1200 BC) to develop their own unique Hebrew writing and began writing down the stories and their understanding of the Law up to that time. And their understanding of theology continued to develop.

When Nebuchanezzar invaded Jerusalem and scattered the people far and wide through his dynasty--some escaped to go elsewhere--it was more difficult for the leaders to keep the cohesiveness of their faith and there was increasing danger that it would be corrupted by different pagan religions and beliefs. And that is when they began writing it all down in earnest and collecting and collating the oldest manuscripts that were out there. There are various versions of the rather complicated history that went into the process, so let's just say that they collected it and finished writing it all down, put it together, and declared the process close with nothing else to be added to it lest corrupt theology be included in it.

Through their work, imperfect as it might have been, though various sects did develop and have continued to do so, the basic Jewish faith has been able to continue and remain fairly consistent and cohesive over the millenia.

But as for Genesis being pre-Judaism, no. Some of the oldest manuscripts we have are included there, but the very first chapter, Genesis 1 - the "In the beginning. . ." statement of theology is believed by most dedicated scholars to be one of the last Old Testament manuscripts written.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Foxfyre: May I ask what is your take on the Caballah Mythology that before there was Adam and Eve, there was Lilith who was brought up from the dust equally as Adam but ws too powerful and dominated him. So to me that represents some of the older matriarchal-dominated goddess-earth cultures before Adam and Eve, where Eve was derived from Adam's side not brought up equal. I believe this was an attempt to make male and female equal, but this still led to downfall and it took the sacrifice of Christ to reconcile spiritually.
What is your take on that? Do you believe it is fair game to use pre-creation symbolism and mythology to reflect stages of humanity before the Hebrew/Mosaic lineage with Adam?

This is only a supposition--and not from a "believer of Text" as some may describe a believer.

Genesis is a collection of useful myths and beliefs BEFORE the religious establishment of judaism. The part you are referencing is probably taken from a polytheistic religion such as that of the Sumerians whose creation myths and floods are suspiciously similiar to that in Genesis. Also the names of some of Abrahams forefathers are also similiar to the names of cities that were establish in the region that Sumeria ocupied.

In short, any written before the Books of Moses or relating to the history of the Hebrews/Jews can be considered pre-Judaic literature and maybe considered pagan ruffrage that was taken in to answer questions that were impossible to answer without guessing.

You can ignore this post if you wish since I am interfering.

You are not interfering. There is much (from my own limited understanding and from what I have heard said throughout the years) that relates to what you just said and should be considered. Thank you for your input.

Amrchaos does offer one of the many theories surrounding the stories of Genesis and also the festivals and customs of both Judaism and Christianity.

My own research suggests that while the stories of Genesis can be taken as literal--and I have no problem with those who do--they can also be taken as allegory or mythical teachings to explain why things are the way they are and/or to teach universal principles of God's law that all the ancient Hebrew/Jewish people were taught from the time they were old enough to learn anything.

I don't personally embrace the theory that they were 'pre-Judaism' stories though. The ancients used oral tradition to pass down the stories--and because that was the way they kept their histories, they were very competent with that--until they used a variation of the Phoenician alphabet (around 1200 BC) to develop their own unique Hebrew writing and began writing down the stories and their understanding of the Law up to that time. And their understanding of theology continued to develop.

When Nebuchanezzar invaded Jerusalem and scattered the people far and wide through his dynasty--some escaped to go elsewhere--it was more difficult for the leaders to keep the cohesiveness of their faith and there was increasing danger that it would be corrupted by different pagan religions and beliefs. And that is when they began writing it all down in earnest and collecting and collating the oldest manuscripts that were out there. There are various versions of the rather complicated history that went into the process, so let's just say that they collected it and finished writing it all down, put it together, and declared the process close with nothing else to be added to it lest corrupt theology be included in it.

Through their work, imperfect as it might have been, though various sects did develop and have continued to do so, the basic Jewish faith has been able to continue and remain fairly consistent and cohesive over the millenia.

But as for Genesis being pre-Judaism, no. Some of the oldest manuscripts we have are included there, but the very first chapter, Genesis 1 - the "In the beginning. . ." statement of theology is believed by most dedicated scholars to be of the last Old Testament manuscripts written.

 

[emilynghiem]

Congratulations to Quantum Windbag on being the 1st to qualify for the ignore list. This list is reserved for stalkers, trolls, flamers and other malcontents who provide nothing of value. Have a nice life.

This is what people who claim to be adults act like?

That you are unaware that adults regularly impose timeouts on children who don't know how to behave themselves comes as no surprise whatsoever.

Dear QW: This morning I got a very strong spiritual message to share with you. It was as if an old gentle man was shaking his head and asking for a little sit down talk. The impression in my mind was he was saying "Son, you know you grieve your Father God in Heaven when you treat each other this way." And there were more thoughts after that. (1) That the gift of forgiveness is given freely, at a most precious price, and you don't even call upon that gift and use it; instead you refuse it. Do you place so little value on your relationship that you do not believe God would want it to be saved? (2) that you know the deep sacrifice that Christ paid, so if you look at your msgs do you think your words and attitude are worthy of that sacrifice (3) and even the free speech and democratic process we have free access to, which so many lives were laid down so we can have this privilege as free citizens, and you use your free speech for this? to fight when your words could be used to resolve things and make peace?

After that there were signals to go look up scripture
a. first I wanted to find the scripture that says something like:
anyone even the heathens can reward those who do good to us and reject those who do bad; but Jesus calls us to love even those who persecute us, to pray for them to be blessed, that they may know God's love or something like that. [that you are resorting to the same material standards of giving people back what they give you, instead of higher spiritual laws]

QW can you tell me if you think this is misguided?
Is this the Holy Spirit trying to send guidance?
Do you think it is a negative/false/deceptive or a loving/charitable spiritual message?

Then just now when I was updating the list of scriptures for Gracie
b. I found that other one John 12:47 that if people do not hear the words of
even Jesus, he does not judge that person, but came to save the world not to judge

so if Jesus does not judge those who do not hear HIM
is it really right to judge those who do not hear US

who are we next to Jesus?

QW is this a righteous guiding spiritual message?
I believe it is the Holy Spirit then we should find Comfort and Mercy in the words.
To me it makes me sad, very humbling and sorry, but at least it doesn't make
people angry as the msgs you and DT were posting back and forth to incite each other to anger.
Are you sure that is guided by the Holy Spirit or some other energy or impulse on your side?

What do you think of this message I was getting to share with you?
How do you read it?

Thanks, QW
If it interests you I would like to have a separate thread just to work out how you DO
go about making corrections if one person is a believer under scriptural law and the other is a gentile under natural laws; which law do you use to resolve the differences? if we strike out using scripture, maybe we should go under the common system of natural laws?

 

[Gracie]

Oh yes. Lilith. So much is left OUT of the bible. So much is changed around. Lilith refused to be ridden and wanted to do the riding. So Lilith is now delegated to be an evil demon woman due to her strong will. Women were to be bought, sold and walk 2 steps behind their man back in those days. And it carried on today, in a Man's World.

But enough about Lilith. I read too much already and have not chatted in the garden at night like I used to. Things change. And that is what I am afraid of. MY perception changing. So to protect that, and my and God's relationship, I don't want to read any more about what men decided was to be put in the bible, what was deemed not worthy (Gospel of Mary, for example), and claim to speak FOR God...and who knows how many other gospels were left out because some powerful MAN or group of MEN calling themselves the head of (insert name of church here) didn't want it in the collection that is now the bible.

 

[Foxfyre]

Dear Foxfyre: May I ask what is your take on the Caballah Mythology that before there was Adam and Eve, there was Lilith who was brought up from the dust equally as Adam but ws too powerful and dominated him. So to me that represents some of the older matriarchal-dominated goddess-earth cultures before Adam and Eve, where Eve was derived from Adam's side not brought up equal. I believe this was an attempt to make male and female equal, but this still led to downfall and it took the sacrifice of Christ to reconcile spiritually.
What is your take on that? Do you believe it is fair game to use pre-creation symbolism and mythology to reflect stages of humanity before the Hebrew/Mosaic lineage with Adam?

You are not interfering. There is much (from my own limited understanding and from what I have heard said throughout the years) that relates to what you just said and should be considered. Thank you for your input.

Amrchaos does offer one of the many theories surrounding the stories of Genesis and also the festivals and customs of both Judaism and Christianity.

My own research suggests that while the stories of Genesis can be taken as literal--and I have no problem with those who do--they can also be taken as allegory or mythical teachings to explain why things are the way they are and/or to teach universal principles of God's law that all the ancient Hebrew/Jewish people were taught from the time they were old enough to learn anything.

I don't personally embrace the theory that they were 'pre-Judaism' stories though. The ancients used oral tradition to pass down the stories--and because that was the way they kept their histories, they were very competent with that--until they used a variation of the Phoenician alphabet (around 1200 BC) to develop their own unique Hebrew writing and began writing down the stories and their understanding of the Law up to that time. And their understanding of theology continued to develop.

When Nebuchanezzar invaded Jerusalem and scattered the people far and wide through his dynasty--some escaped to go elsewhere--it was more difficult for the leaders to keep the cohesiveness of their faith and there was increasing danger that it would be corrupted by different pagan religions and beliefs. And that is when they began writing it all down in earnest and collecting and collating the oldest manuscripts that were out there. There are various versions of the rather complicated history that went into the process, so let's just say that they collected it and finished writing it all down, put it together, and declared the process close with nothing else to be added to it lest corrupt theology be included in it.

Through their work, imperfect as it might have been, though various sects did develop and have continued to do so, the basic Jewish faith has been able to continue and remain fairly consistent and cohesive over the millenia.

But as for Genesis being pre-Judaism, no. Some of the oldest manuscripts we have are included there, but the very first chapter, Genesis 1 - the "In the beginning. . ." statement of theology is believed by most dedicated scholars to be of the last Old Testament manuscripts written.

From what my mentors and professors along with my own research has come up with is that Caballah mythology--also and sometimes more commonly spelled Kabbalah--was in fact a Jewish invention and traditional way of relating teachings, most especailly those involving the more esoteric spiritual concepts.

It would seem reasonable, however, that ancient peoples were not immune to legends and traditions of others around them and that story tellers would borrow ideas to use for illustration. I do quite a bit of public speaking and often borrow or adapt things that I see, hear, or read to use as illustration often for a totally unrelated concept.

I find nothing in the ancient Jewish writings, however, from the earliest manuscripts right up through the time of Jesus that suggests they ever intended to see women as equal with--that is sharing the same roles with--men. While there are Biblical accounts suggesting women could be expendable in certain circumstance, there was also much to suggest that women, in their own God assigned roles, were extremely important and of much value.

One of the things that gives me confidence in the Scriptures is the fact that there is such contradiction and no apparent effort to agree on dictate any specific point of view or doctrine. So you get the good, the bad, and the ugly, almost like these were real people leading real human lives.

 

[emilynghiem]

Not to fear, Gracie, remember God's perfect love triumphs over all.

If it helps you, I notice that the one person who may have corrected Jesus
was the woman who answered back to him that even dogs may partake of the scraps that fall from the master's table or something like that, and he accepted her answer.
This was revolutionary for him to speak with and also to defend, as the woman facing stoning. Not only were women not to be spoken with, but Jesus actually had a respectful exchange like this and spoke well of women, using for an example the old widow who gave her last two cents as a great act of charity.

Please know that the injustices you know have occurred, the sacrifice of Christ was to atone and balance out for all of those. So all the genocides and oppression of the matriarchal tribes before the patriarchy, perhaps this is why Jesus was a MALE sacrifice to make up for all the female sacrifices in war.

And Gracie, one of the things I believe is underemphasized: the Holy Spirit being Comfort and Mercy is what unites the church body which is FEMALE. the Bride the Wife of Christ is the FEMALE side of God's love that we take for granted, but it is the final stages of peace.

Because all the teachings were written and given "within the Church" then we take this for granted. But we the people ARE the body of Christ, the Bride or the Church, so we collectively are the Female in the relationship.

So any oppression of the female spirit in the world is oppression of the HUMAN SPIRIT.
This is the suffering of humanity that Jesus came to atone for, to lay down his life for his BRIDE. That's us. that's all humanity. So we are supposed to return to a spiritual balance
and no more oppression or war hurting ANYBODY.

Much love to you Gracie.
Let the love of God cast out all your fears.
When you see the whole message in its entirety, there is no fear in there
only love and maybe humility from realizing how great that love is that includes everyone!

Oh yes. Lilith. So much is left OUT of the bible. So much is changed around. Lilith refused to be ridden and wanted to do the riding. So Lilith is now delegated to be an evil demon woman due to her strong will. Women were to be bought, sold and walk 2 steps behind their man back in those days. And it carried on today, in a Man's World.

But enough about Lilith. I read too much already and have not chatted in the garden at night like I used to. Things change. And that is what I am afraid of. MY perception changing. So to protect that, and my and God's relationship, I don't want to read any more about what men decided was to be put in the bible, what was deemed not worthy (Gospel of Mary, for example), and claim to speak FOR God...and who knows how many other gospels were left out because some powerful MAN or group of MEN calling themselves the head of (insert name of church here) didn't want it in the collection that is now the bible.

Yes, all that old political stuff is OT behavior. We still see it today, but it is old and has an end. We are suppose to rise above all that with the love of Christ in the NT which is eternal.
So the old bad habits die out, that negative stuff is finite and can't last forever.

The renewal of the true spirit of life when we forgive and let go of the old ways,
this is where the love and blessings multiply in abundance.

Gracie, maybe the two women authors who wrote Saving Paradise would help you. They wrote a book about the original Christian teachings being about brotherly love and paradise/heavenly peace on earth (while the crusades type dominance didn't kick in until a thousand years later) So they are also teaching to go back to the original message
before the patriarchal politics came in (which is prophesied also in scripture that the antichrist would rise and also Satan would take back dominion temporarily etc.)
in the end, there is resolution, these are only the spiritual patterns of the karma
working itself out so all things can be resolved in the end thorugh Christ Jesus.

Have no fear. finish the apple, don't eat it halfway. Read the whole story and
you will see that the victories in the end overcome any pains and sufferings
in the process to reach that final stage ofspiritual maturity andpeace in the Kingdom ofGod.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Congratulations to Quantum Windbag on being the 1st to qualify for the ignore list. This list is reserved for stalkers, trolls, flamers and other malcontents who provide nothing of value. Have a nice life.

Dear DT to be fair to QW I've also urged not to keep posting jab remarks,
I don't think your assessment was fair in writing QW off as providing nothing of value.
While I disagree with personal jabs and other off remarks denouncing you unfairly,
QW did actual state opinions and views of the topic, in between the crap that was off base.

I was really hoping to branch off a new thread and continue answering QW sincere
objections. Can we still do that, or not yet? If it helps to address the issues with mocking at the same time, I don't mind that either. May I ask if we need a new thread or work on this outside the forum to organize real groups in real life? I already bought domain names to start separate websites for consensusonlaw and consensusongod since the same process would address both. It may be easier to present position papers first to church leaders for a consensus on god, since that unity is needed first in order to support the reconciliation work it takes to reach consensus on laws through state and party reps on more issues.

Instead of criticizing either you or QW for jabbing and taunting each other's ego's I really should apologize instead, and compliment you both for how civilly you dish on each other in comparison to how much you obviously do set off or grate the other person's senses.

Sorry I wish it got better, but given how much worse I've seen ppl get over less, I should not complain but be glad we can share at all over issues that normally do push buttons!

Thank you DT
sorry for the overly drawn out msgs and hope we can pinpoint the key issues
from now on. I really do appreciate your helpful gift in editing down to the crux.
Let me know if a new thread would help, or if QW needs to resolve the old thread first
as referenced in previous msgs complaining about walking off and not finishing, okay?

Dear Emily,

Have you ever read I'm OK, You're OK, by Thomas A Harris? Another good book is Games People Play, by Eric Berne. In essence there is a "reward" for certain kinds of negative behavior. The quickest way to stop the negative behavior is to deny the "reward". Hence the "timeout".

Your willingness to intervene is admirable but in this instance it is futile in my opinion. There is no point in continuing to communicate unless both sides intend to stick to an adult to adult basis. You already have my commitment to you to work together to find common ground to resolve pressing issues. Whether QW cares to participate in any meaningful positive manner is entirely up to him.

As far the issues that you posted about in Texas. I am doing some research and I will probably only get back to you with a response next weekend. In the meantime you might want to take a look at Kiva.org and Heifer.org as funding concepts.

Yes, let's move this to another thread and give poor Gracie some peace and quiet to read and contemplate. She is probably getting indigestion trying to "eat her apples" with this noise going on all the time.

 

[koshergrl]

Lol...I'm sure emily will accept your unconditional surrender gracefully. She's a good winner.

 

[numan]

'
I just love theology!!

There is nothing I like more than sitting in a chair before a fire on a cold evening, and curling up with an amusing heresy!

It is so indescribably comic and entertaining to see human reason twisting itself into knots trying to come to grips with insoluble contradictions!

RE: Christ having two natures divine and human

I see this division as projected onto Christ from our human perspective
because WE are the ones dividing the two realms, God's divine laws from God's natural laws.

I regret to inform you that the Fathers of the Church would have looked with extreme disfavor on your heretical views.

The Church Fathers were not nit-picky just because they were crotchety scholars. They were trying to reconcile contradictions which to them were desperately important.

If Christ had only a divine nature, then the Infinite Power of God would have too easy a victory over sin, and Divine Justice, which demanded the severest penalty for humanity's transgressions, would be violated.

If Christ had only a human nature, then He would have been too weak to have the power to forgive and heal humanity's sinful nature.

It is conceivable (though suspect) that the Son, before his Incarnation, had only one divine nature, and that it is only when He was born as Jesus that He became the Christ, with two separate and distinct natures -- human and divine. But ever since the Sacrifice upon the Cross, He has, and ever more will have, those two distinctly separate natures.

Those who denied the truth of the two natures, and thought that the Christ had only one, divine nature, were called Monophysites, and were particularly rife in Egypt and the Middle East

-----AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM!! · ·
.

 

[emilynghiem]

Thank you DT ;-) I will start a thread for the consensus model, and then also a separate thread to explore 3 potential points that may be bothering QW conscience and causing such reactions. People don't act that way for no reason. Something is wrong, and as soon as that is fixed, these problems should not recur. Just natural laws of cause and effect.

If these exchanges on Gracie's thread are for real life demonstration of Bible passages,
You remind me of the parable in the Bible of the Good "Samaritan" where
Jesus deliberately picked the person LEAST expected to be the "good guy" in the story.
The irony is not lost on me when those of us who claim Christian faith, can't bring ourselves to forgive, while those who claim no such faith ARE able to remain objective and let go!

I was just beginning to wonder if that isn't the lesson here, not to judge by labels.
Either way it is very humbling, and I thank you.

I hope Gracie can see the msg here too, that love of truth and forgiveness are greater
than negative forces of fear and division which are eventually overcome by good will.

I hope we can still set a good example for her, that when we forgive and receive one another, we are acting with charity as neighbors in Christ, and that is what it means to follow the Bible. Even the Gentiles do this by conscience where we respect natural laws.

Dear Emily,

Have you ever read I'm OK, You're OK, by Thomas A Harris? Another good book is Games People Play, by Eric Berne. In essence there is a "reward" for certain kinds of negative behavior. The quickest way to stop the negative behavior is to deny the "reward". Hence the "timeout".

P.S. I heard that guy committed suicide! Is that true?
I prefer to focus on CURING people of bad habits or addictions: Dr. Scott Peck wrote books on "People of the Lie" and "Glimpses of the Devil" that I believe are on the cutting edge of mental and spiritual healing as a medical practice. The books I recommend are about overcoming sources of negative addictions with forgiveness, not just identifying the problems. So (1) one thread for spiritual healing (2) one for consensus building for church-state policies (3) one for exploring 3 points of conflict with QW to find and fix the problems.
I think it has to do with QW's OWN WORDS regarding "guides" that I need to understand.

As far the issues that you posted about in Texas. I am doing some research and I will probably only get back to you with a response next weekend. In the meantime you might want to take a look at Kiva.org and Heifer.org as funding concepts.

Yes, let's move this to another thread and give poor Gracie some peace and quiet to read and contemplate. She is probably getting indigestion trying to "eat her apples" with this noise going on all the time.

Wow thanks. Yes, I really want to involve grassroots supporters in backing the ideas of microlending and microdonations. I was thinking of hitting on members of the Occupy and Democrat Party to organize in teams and encourage direct action and participation as political leadership training. If we are heading to more direct localized democracy we need to set this up as a program for experienced political leaders to mentor younger interns before they go work for govt. This is a great opportunity, and I appreciate your coming from new angles just when I was burning out on what to try next.

Thank you DT and
Thank you Gracie! Much love to you!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is what people who claim to be adults act like?

That you are unaware that adults regularly impose timeouts on children who don't know how to behave themselves comes as no surprise whatsoever.

Dear QW: This morning I got a very strong spiritual message to share with you. It was as if an old gentle man was shaking his head and asking for a little sit down talk. The impression in my mind was he was saying "Son, you know you grieve your Father God in Heaven when you treat each other this way." And there were more thoughts after that. (1) That the gift of forgiveness is given freely, at a most precious price, and you don't even call upon that gift and use it; instead you refuse it. Do you place so little value on your relationship that you do not believe God would want it to be saved? (2) that you know the deep sacrifice that Christ paid, so if you look at your msgs do you think your words and attitude are worthy of that sacrifice (3) and even the free speech and democratic process we have free access to, which so many lives were laid down so we can have this privilege as free citizens, and you use your free speech for this? to fight when your words could be used to resolve things and make peace?

After that there were signals to go look up scripture
a. first I wanted to find the scripture that says something like:
anyone even the heathens can reward those who do good to us and reject those who do bad; but Jesus calls us to love even those who persecute us, to pray for them to be blessed, that they may know God's love or something like that. [that you are resorting to the same material standards of giving people back what they give you, instead of higher spiritual laws]

QW can you tell me if you think this is misguided?
Is this the Holy Spirit trying to send guidance?
Do you think it is a negative/false/deceptive or a loving/charitable spiritual message?

Then just now when I was updating the list of scriptures for Gracie
b. I found that other one John 12:47 that if people do not hear the words of
even Jesus, he does not judge that person, but came to save the world not to judge

so if Jesus does not judge those who do not hear HIM
is it really right to judge those who do not hear US

who are we next to Jesus?

QW is this a righteous guiding spiritual message?
I believe it is the Holy Spirit then we should find Comfort and Mercy in the words.
To me it makes me sad, very humbling and sorry, but at least it doesn't make
people angry as the msgs you and DT were posting back and forth to incite each other to anger.
Are you sure that is guided by the Holy Spirit or some other energy or impulse on your side?

What do you think of this message I was getting to share with you?
How do you read it?

Thanks, QW
If it interests you I would like to have a separate thread just to work out how you DO
go about making corrections if one person is a believer under scriptural law and the other is a gentile under natural laws; which law do you use to resolve the differences? if we strike out using scripture, maybe we should go under the common system of natural laws?

Are spiritual messages ever wrong? The problem is interpreting them properly. Not having the gift I don't pretend to understand dreams, even when I have them myself.

One thing I have to point out, there are three categories of people we, as believers, deal with on a daily basis. We have to deal with other believers, people who are honestly curious, and people who have actively rejected God. If we forget that last category, or pretend it doesn't exist, we forget that that we are in a battle.