Bible criticism

[yiostheoy]

Hebrews and Revelation were both discredited by Eusebius at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

You can read about it in his famous book "History Of The Church".

Not discredited, but not thought to be written by the Apostle. The Council debated using Revelation as Canon also because it can be so easily misinterpreted, misunderstood. Hebrews was not written by Paul, but is considered Canon nonetheless.

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Hebrews and Revelation were both discredited by Eusebius at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

You can read about it in his famous book "History Of The Church".

Not discredited, but not thought to be written by the Apostle. The Council debated using Revelation as Canon also because it can be so easily misinterpreted, misunderstood. Hebrews was not written by Paul, but is considered Canon nonetheless.

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

The entire Bible is useless to haters.

 

[Meriweather]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

 

[hobelim]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

 

[Meriweather]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

 

[hobelim]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

 

[yiostheoy]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Anachronism ...

Nero was Caesar when Peter and Paul were crucified at Rome.

 

[yiostheoy]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

 

[yiostheoy]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Jesus had taught Peter to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Not suspect at all.

Even though Nero executed both Peter and Paul.

 

[yiostheoy]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

Eusebius considers them frauds therefore I find them both to be useless.

Eusebius is my resource on this.

Eusebius should be required reading together with The New Testament for anyone claiming to be Christian -- whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

 

[Meriweather]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

 

[Meriweather]

Eusebius considers them frauds therefore I find them both to be useless.

Eusebius is my resource on this.

Eusebius should be required reading together with The New Testament for anyone claiming to be Christian -- whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

Again, Eusebius' opinion is that it wasn't written by the Apostle, John. I agree with him. But the book not being written by John does not make the book a fraud. Keep in mind that the books that became Canon were books already commonly used by the time of the Council.

 

[hobelim]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Jesus had taught Peter to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Not suspect at all.

Even though Nero executed both Peter and Paul.

That's quite the camel you are swallowing there.


When Jesus said that, to the Roman it sounded like he was advocating subjugation to Caesar, but to the observant Jew who knew that everything belonged to God and nothing belonged to Caesar, especially in Judea, he was fomenting rebellion by saying in essence to give Caesar nothing.

 

[hobelim]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

 

[Meriweather]

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Sigh. First of all we don't know that 1 Peter was written by the Apostle. Next, we don't know what year it was written. What we do know is that Christ and the Apostles and the early Church taught that Christians should honor those in authority--stopping at the point where an Official insisted that they commit an immoral act or worship them. Many Christians lost their lives when given the choice of worshiping an emperor as God; many turned from the faith when faced with such a life and death decision when family (or personal) welfare was at stake.

What we do know is that this letter was circulated and well read in the early Church. If you want to believe honoring the emperor was a later addition, go for it, but honoring those in authority permeates early Christianity, so yes, Peter himself could have said it.

 

[hobelim]

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Sigh. First of all we don't know that 1 Peter was written by the Apostle. Next, we don't know what year it was written. What we do know is that Christ and the Apostles and the early Church taught that Christians should honor those in authority--stopping at the point where an Official insisted that they commit an immoral act or worship them. Many Christians lost their lives when given the choice of worshiping an emperor as God; many turned from the faith when faced with such a life and death decision when family (or personal) welfare was at stake.

What we do know is that this letter was circulated and well read in the early Church. If you want to believe honoring the emperor was a later addition, go for it, but honoring those in authority permeates early Christianity, so yes, Peter himself could have said it.

You seem to be forgetting that to a Jew, especially a follower of Jesus, to honor a man or to teach others to honor a man that claimed to be a god would have been apostasy even if they never faced a life and death choice to publicly worship him or not..

So, no, Jesus or Peter, or any devoted Jew would have preferred death than to have ever said that.

 

[yiostheoy]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

 

[yiostheoy]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Jesus had taught Peter to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Not suspect at all.

Even though Nero executed both Peter and Paul.

That's quite the camel you are swallowing there.


When Jesus said that, to the Roman it sounded like he was advocating subjugation to Caesar, but to the observant Jew who knew that everything belonged to God and nothing belonged to Caesar, especially in Judea, he was fomenting rebellion by saying in essence to give Caesar nothing.

The Jews were a rebellious nation at the time, and their rebellion against Rome lost them their country for at least the next 19 centuries.

Christianity was the first faith that taught loyalty to government.

It evolved into the divine right of kings at its most extreme.

Then retracted to so called God given rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness according to the philosopher John Locke.

 

[hobelim]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

I already do. I render unto Caesar the things of Caesar which amounts to nothing.

 

[yiostheoy]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

I already do. I render unto Caesar the things of Caesar which amounts to nothing.

What good are you then?