Bible criticism

[hobelim]

Peter was already dead when Vespasian became Caesar.

If Peter wrote it then he was referring to Nero.

Not impossible.

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

I already do. I render unto Caesar the things of Caesar which amounts to nothing.

What good are you then?

I do happen to have in my possession the goose that lays the golden eggs.

 

[yiostheoy]

There is a very good possibility (scholars feel) Peter didn't write it. It's often dated between 70-90. Vespasian was emperor during some of these years.

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

I already do. I render unto Caesar the things of Caesar which amounts to nothing.

What good are you then?

I do happen to have in my possession the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Lucky for you.

 

[hobelim]

The question is would any Christian have written to honor any of those emperors who all claimed divinity and brutally persecuted either Christians or Jews or both?

Well if you believe in Jesus then you would render to Caesar that which is Caesar's and teach others to do so also.

I already do. I render unto Caesar the things of Caesar which amounts to nothing.

What good are you then?

I do happen to have in my possession the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Lucky for you.

Lucky for you that it didn't end up with someone else.

Its not like I didn't notice you walk way with something heavy in your pocket.

You're welcome.

 

[Picaro]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

To me it reads like a call to submission to the civil governments of the time, which make sense from the perspective of the future spread and eventual adoption of Christianity by many states, particularly Rome. There was little point in agitating against states from the Christian perspective, as all of them at the time were not Christian, so it made little difference between them, they all 'looked alike', but obviously the Roman Empire played a key role in providing the environment of the rapid spread of Christianity, and it wouldn't have been entirely accidental for it to be the logical choice for the appearance of Jesus; in fact it was an ideal time. They were after hearts and minds, not lusting for political power.

 

[Meriweather]

You seem to be forgetting that to a Jew, especially a follower of Jesus, to honor a man or to teach others to honor a man that claimed to be a god would have been apostasy even if they never faced a life and death choice to publicly worship him or not..

So, no, Jesus or Peter, or any devoted Jew would have preferred death than to have ever said that.

What Christ and the Apostles were teaching was personal peace in one's life, not rebellion. Respecting the emperor and those in authority is in line with that teaching and philosophy. However, I see nothing wrong with your conclusion that it was a later redaction--while I tend not to agree that it was.

 

[hobelim]

You seem to be forgetting that to a Jew, especially a follower of Jesus, to honor a man or to teach others to honor a man that claimed to be a god would have been apostasy even if they never faced a life and death choice to publicly worship him or not..

So, no, Jesus or Peter, or any devoted Jew would have preferred death than to have ever said that.

What Christ and the Apostles were teaching was personal peace in one's life, not rebellion. Respecting the emperor and those in authority is in line with that teaching and philosophy. However, I see nothing wrong with your conclusion that it was a later redaction--while I tend not to agree that it was.

What Jesus and the Apostles were teaching was obedience to God according to the deeper implications of Mosaic law.

To honor the emperor who claimed divinity and persecuted and killed indiscriminately would have made personal peace impossible. Jesus and the apostles did not honor the high priest, the Sanhedrin, or a thousand years of tradition in the Talmud, they would have taught submission to Rome?

I don't think so.

Would you ever teach your congregation to honor Nero if he was around?



.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Very good. Then you should know better than to quote Hebrews or Revelation because they are useless.

Of course they are not useless. Would you consider the writings of Barnabas, the other Early Church Fathers, and Saints useless? Why do you consider Revelation and Hebrews useless? With which passages do you disagree?

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Emperor, King, President. Honor them. Does not say you have to like them, but you honor their authority.

 

[Penelope]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

Christianity was the first faith that taught loyalty to government.

link ...


however an absurd reasoning their material objectives do coincide.

.

 

[Penelope]

Tiberius Julius Alexander (fl. 1st century) was an equestrian governor and general in the Roman Empire. Born into a wealthy Jewish family of Alexandria but abandoning or neglecting the Jewish religion, he rose to become procurator of Judea (c. 46 – 48) under Claudius. While Prefect of Egypt (66 – 69), he employed his legions against the Alexandrian Jews in a brutal response to ethnic violence, and was instrumental in the Emperor Vespasian's rise to power. In 70, he participated in the Siege of Jerusalem as Titus' second-in-command.[1]

Tiberius Julius Alexander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Picaro]

Re Revelations, I don't really buy the premise that Eusebius proved it wasn't 'canonical', since he made no real case, and neither did his primary source. I'll go with the orthodox view the John that wrote Revelation was the same Apostle John that wrote the Gospel, based on the internal evidence of the book itself; it was clearly written before 70 A.D., and I share the opinions of some scholars that 'The Mark of the Beast' was Nero's, who died in A.D.68. Eusebius just didn't like the hint of 'millinealism' in Revelation, and he wasn't above misrepresenting or lying about certain phrases and verses to make them fit his own biases re theological points.

The lack of reference to the destruction of the Temple is a great evidence for this in my opinion, as it is for the rest of the NT, when read along with Joachim Jeremiah's wonderful history of Jerusalem, covering the contemporary social and political environment of Jesus' times. there are no anachronisms, and everything in the books reflects contemporary places and society, which wouldn't be the case if it were all just stuff made up a hundred years later, when the environment was very different.

Contemporary scholars are now certain of the chiastic structures of several of the NT 'books', which offers some insight on Revelation as well. A couple of articles on that follow.

... from this essay:Chiastic Structure is Key to Understanding Revelation's Symbols

This one is also a good introduction:

https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1978-2/1978-2-05.pdf

Googling will bring up others, and decent bibliographies for those interested in further study on this.

There also evidence of chaistic structures linking topics in Revelation to other books, like Genesis, Joshua, and Isiah as well, not just an internal structure but including the entire bible canons, which makes Revelation an excellent 'end piece' for the Christian bible, and not a mystery at all as for why it's included.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

 

[Penelope]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

Well today even if a jew is atheist they are still considered a jew. Jew is not a bloodline. A Judean use to be anyone from Judea. Just like American, we have Jews, Christians, French, Muslims, Arabs, Catholics, Japanese, and if they live here and are citizens they are called American.

Today jews fight over who is a jew, just like Christians fight over who is a real Christian.

Its funny how jewish history and stories love to leave him out of the story, and blame it all on Rome.

Back to the NT.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I find the last bit of 1 Peter 2:17 troubling.

"Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor."

Who was the emperor at the time this was written?

Nero? Domitian? Trajan? Does it matter? Didn't they all persecute Christians?

Doesn't this seem a little suspect to you? Perhaps evidence of the text being edited and redacted before widespread publication?

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

Well today even if a jew is atheist they are still considered a jew. Jew is not a bloodline. A Judean use to be anyone from Judea. Just like American, we have Jews, Christians, French, Muslims, Arabs, Catholics, Japanese, and if they live here and are citizens they are called American.

Today jews fight over who is a jew, just like Christians fight over who is a real Christian.

Its funny how jewish history and stories love to leave him out of the story, and blame it all on Rome.

Back to the NT.

You are mixing faith and blood linage. And Herrord, Titus, Pilot etc where Jews of blood linage but not of faith. And we know about them because Jews handed down their history.

 

[Penelope]

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

Well today even if a jew is atheist they are still considered a jew. Jew is not a bloodline. A Judean use to be anyone from Judea. Just like American, we have Jews, Christians, French, Muslims, Arabs, Catholics, Japanese, and if they live here and are citizens they are called American.

Today jews fight over who is a jew, just like Christians fight over who is a real Christian.

Its funny how jewish history and stories love to leave him out of the story, and blame it all on Rome.

Back to the NT.

You are mixing faith and blood linage. And Herrord, Titus, Pilot etc where Jews of blood linage but not of faith. And we know about them because Jews handed down their history.

They intermarried long before Herod, Titus , Ezra makes it pretty clear. Jew is not a race, anyone from Judea was a considered a jew in the bible time.

 

[yiostheoy]

Tiberius Julius Alexander (fl. 1st century) was an equestrian governor and general in the Roman Empire. Born into a wealthy Jewish family of Alexandria but abandoning or neglecting the Jewish religion, he rose to become procurator of Judea (c. 46 – 48) under Claudius. While Prefect of Egypt (66 – 69), he employed his legions against the Alexandrian Jews in a brutal response to ethnic violence, and was instrumental in the Emperor Vespasian's rise to power. In 70, he participated in the Siege of Jerusalem as Titus' second-in-command.[1]

Tiberius Julius Alexander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had no idea Tiberias was Jewish.

I had heard he was Christian -- Eusebius tells us this.

 

[yiostheoy]

.

Christianity was the first faith that taught loyalty to government.

link ...


however an absurd reasoning their material objectives do coincide.

.

You cannot look up "render to Caesar" on your own?

What are you? Lame?

 

[Penelope]

Tiberius Julius Alexander (fl. 1st century) was an equestrian governor and general in the Roman Empire. Born into a wealthy Jewish family of Alexandria but abandoning or neglecting the Jewish religion, he rose to become procurator of Judea (c. 46 – 48) under Claudius. While Prefect of Egypt (66 – 69), he employed his legions against the Alexandrian Jews in a brutal response to ethnic violence, and was instrumental in the Emperor Vespasian's rise to power. In 70, he participated in the Siege of Jerusalem as Titus' second-in-command.[1]

Tiberius Julius Alexander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had no idea Tiberias was Jewish.

I had heard he was Christian -- Eusebius tells us this.

You mean Emperor Tiberius? Where does Eusebius say this?

 

[Picaro]

Could have been written during the reign of Vespasian...

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

Well today even if a jew is atheist they are still considered a jew. Jew is not a bloodline. A Judean use to be anyone from Judea. Just like American, we have Jews, Christians, French, Muslims, Arabs, Catholics, Japanese, and if they live here and are citizens they are called American.

Today jews fight over who is a jew, just like Christians fight over who is a real Christian.

Its funny how jewish history and stories love to leave him out of the story, and blame it all on Rome.

Back to the NT.

You are mixing faith and blood linage. And Herrord, Titus, Pilot etc where Jews of blood linage but not of faith. And we know about them because Jews handed down their history.

Jewish society was obsessed with genealogies in that era, and some sects still are. Some of the offices of priesthood and Temple positions depended on inheritance and genealogical qualifications. Half of Joachim Jeremiah's historical study, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, is devoted to Jewish purity laws and its importance to social status and qualifications for various offices and 'acceptable' businesses and trades for the various social strata. It was a very detailed social order.

 

[Weatherman2020]

You think Peter , a Jew, would have written, "honor Vespasian"? Seriously?

The guy responsible for the destruction of the temple and the slaughter, exile and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of Jews?

Really? the same emperor who claimed divinity?

Its not more likely that some unnamed Roman security authority added that last line, "honor the emperor", whichever emperor it was at the time, long after Peter was dead?


Yeah right.

Are you talking Titus, whose right hand man was a jew, an Alexander? Let us remember Judea and Israel was in a civil war since the Maccabees, till the destruction of the Temple. Zealot Jews killed non zealot jews, burnt down stores of food, so as to make the docile of the jews and Samaritans want to fight the Romans.
Jews set fire to their own city, Titus wanted a peaceful resolution but that did not happen. Josephus and the Alexander's (the rich elite jews or should I say pro Romans ) in Alexandria, Egypt pushed for Vespasian to be Emperor. Jews destroyed their own Judea and temple. Peace or rebellion, they chose Jesus Barabbas to be set free, not the peaceful Jesus the Messiah.

Jew as in ethnic bloodline. Not a religion.

Well today even if a jew is atheist they are still considered a jew. Jew is not a bloodline. A Judean use to be anyone from Judea. Just like American, we have Jews, Christians, French, Muslims, Arabs, Catholics, Japanese, and if they live here and are citizens they are called American.

Today jews fight over who is a jew, just like Christians fight over who is a real Christian.

Its funny how jewish history and stories love to leave him out of the story, and blame it all on Rome.

Back to the NT.

You are mixing faith and blood linage. And Herrord, Titus, Pilot etc where Jews of blood linage but not of faith. And we know about them because Jews handed down their history.

They intermarried long before Herod, Titus , Ezra makes it pretty clear. Jew is not a race, anyone from Judea was a considered a jew in the bible time.

Jew is a race as well as a religion, dufus. There are plenty of athiest Jews around.