Bible-believers: What Are Your Thoughts On This Passage?

[Coloradomtnman]

The word used is the same word that described Rahoboam at 40 years of age. Not only were they mocking Elisha, but were trying to convince others that Elijah had not been removed from the earth. So they were.......

God doesn't have to put up with our sh*t to be God.

But He does have to be just. Numerous terrible deaths for what? Mocking and convincing others that somebody had not been removed from the Earth? That isn't justice. And the deaths of those people by mauling isn't justified.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Because I just this week had cardiac surgery and am on the mend, but still without a lot of excess energy ....... I found this Commentary that I feel explains these passages well.

"
Elisha wanted, by God’s power, to rescue *Israel from its *sins. And he wanted to free it from the *curses that were a result of those *sins. He had already done this at Jericho. So next he went to Bethel.
But the people in Bethel loved their false gods. They laughed at God’s *prophet. Elisha could do nothing to help them. In fact, the opposite happened. Their wicked behaviour offended God. And 42 youths from that town suffered a terrible punishment.
Bethel was a town that was famous for its *idols. Jeroboam made those *idols so that people would not *worship the *Lord in Jerusalem (1 Kings 12:26-33). God sent a *prophet, who *prophesied a *curse against that place (1 Kings 13:1-2). And the kings in *Israel never stopped that *sin (2 Kings 17:21-23).
The youths in Bethel were doing something that was especially wicked. They were not merely insulting the *prophet. They were also insulting God. They told the *prophet to ‘go up’. So they were laughing at the way that Elijah went up to heaven. But that was not something that Elijah did by human power. God himself did that in order to take Elijah into heaven. So the youths were laughing at God’s deeds.
And the youths also called Elisha a ‘bald man’. The priests of many religions were bald because they shaved their heads. God warned his people not to imitate them (Deuteronomy 14:1). So when the youths called Elisha a ‘bald man’, they were insulting him. They were saying that he was no better than the priests of an *idol. And perhaps here was another meaning of the phrase ‘go up’. The *idols were on the hills above the town. So the real meaning of the insult may be: ‘Go up to heaven if you can! Otherwise, go up and *worship our *idols. You are already bald like our priests. So your religion is no better than ours.’
Elisha did not try to defend himself. He spoke in the *Lord’s name, that is, on behalf of the *Lord. These youths were insulting God, and God would act against them.
Bears are very dangerous animals. Our translation says that the bears killed the youths. Another possible translation is, ‘the bears tore the youths’ bodies open’. That may mean that the youths died. Or it could mean that they suffered terrible injuries.
The lesson for us today is clear. Nobody should ever insult God. And it is both foolish and dangerous to say anything evil about God’s servants.
But there was also a lesson for Elisha to learn. Like Elijah (1 Kings 19:14), Elisha had discovered that most people in *Israel would never obey God. Elisha could not remove all the *sin from *Israel. He could not end the *worship of *idols. He could only do what God sent him to do.
So Elisha left that place. He went to the mountain called Carmel, where Elijah won a great battle against the *prophets of false gods (1 Kings 18:16-40). There he could pray and prepare for his next task as a *prophet.

I thought it was ******* brutal.
Besides Revelations, The Old Testament is the best part of the Bible. ​

The consequences to unrepentant sin is and always will be brutal.....but we bring that brutality upon ourselves, by our very own decisions and actions. Life has many choices, eternity, on the other hand, has only two. It is up to us which we will choose...

I can agree that sinning against a God should be punished, but these were "little children." I just can't see how little children should be torn by bears for mocking a prophet. An adult, maybe but not little children.

With all due respect and I have been searching I can only find translations for "youth". Not little children.

And this was not mocking but threatening.

You have to understand the taunt of "go up". This is after Elijah. They were wishing death on him and for him to go up like Elijah.

42 youths would be considered a gang by any standard even in the OT.

Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

2 Kings 2 20-25 Bring me a new bowl he said and put... NIV - Online Bible Study

Their actions are not justification for their deaths. And God isn't justified in having them brutally murdered by bears.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

@House Mouse

If you lived under a brutal dictatorship, and the law was follow the party line or be tortured to death but you didn't know that was the law and broke it, and were trotured to death would that be something you brought on yourself and would it be justified?

If God does something brutal, is it justified because God did it, or is it justified because it was just independent of God?

Everyone is to obey the law of the land although we are not to go obey a law that causes us to sin against God. For instance, Coloradomtnman, the government could one day come up with a law to take the RFID chip or we will not be able to buy, sell or trade. We will not be able to be part of the healthcare system and therein we will be arrested.

In such a matter there is no choice but to say no, I'm not taking that mark no matter what the government says I must do. I obey the LORD and the bible says do not take the mark or you will not be able to enter the kingdom of heaven.

What is the mark of the beast? It is part of the world system obviously and without it one would not be able to buy, sell or trade. The bible is clear that the just shall live by faith. It is not going to effect the true believer who trusts in the LORD for all provisions. Jesus knows how to keep His own people. The world shall see this one day when America falls.

Judgment is not falling on the righteous but rather on the people in this nation who called evil good and good evil. The people who compromised with God's Word and preached a false Gospel will be judged with the satanists, witches, marxists, activists such as Planned Parenthood and all those who supported legalizing gay marriage and would not condemn homosexuality as a sin, all those who acknowledged the Roman Catholic Church as a legitimate gospel when it is really a Doctrine of Demons - even from its very inception, all those who loved the world and the things of the world, all those who stood with evil men against Israel because they desired the praise of men rather than the praise of God. These are the people who will perish out of America, those who survive the initial attack will die by famine or sword and suffer tremendous judgment when the judgment of God falls on America. It is even at the door.

It is not possible to convince some people of that but for whoever would listen - today is the day of Salvation - repent and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save you and He may look with mercy upon you in the day of judgment. Zephaniah 2: 1, 2, 3

It is written:

Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness; it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger. - Zephaniah 2; 1,2, 3

That's an interesting perspective, Jeremiah, but your post wasn't an answer to my questions.

 

[September]

Of course being innocent is no guarantee of not being punished by God. There are plenty of such OT passages. One of my favorites was David and the census.

KIng David sinned by taking a census of the Israelites. After his sin God told David to choose one of three ways to be corrected. The first way was to have a famine throughout the land for seven years. David knew what famine was like, as he had already suffered famine for three years due to the killing of the Gibeonites. The second choice of correction was to flee from his enemies for three months. Again, David knew what this was like, as he had many times fled from Saul and even had to flee from his son Absalom. The third way of correction was three days of pestilence (a deadly epidemic) upon the entire land. David choose to, as he put it, 'fall into the hands of the Lord' - which meant the pestilence. Ten of thousands died throughout Israel until the death angel that brought the plague was stopped just before entering Jerusalem. David pleaded for mercy and was told to build an altar to God on a particular threshing floor (2Samuel 24:16 - 18). The pestilence was thus halted.

Telling that two of the choices meant the punishment of the entire nation, men, women, and children who had no part in the decision to conduct the census. Rather than take the punishment on himself (and be thought a coward?) King David opted for the deaths of tens of thousands and God obliged.

It's that kind of unbelievably terrible injustice that makes me certain that the contradiction of a loving and merciful God of Abraham who would commit such a mass murder of His own, chosen, innocent people does not exist. I mean, what? He couldn't think of any better way to exact justice? That isn't rational.

I'm afraid you have YHWH confused with Aphrodite, or Cupid. God/ YHWH can be relentlessly destructive. You should take note of the numerous methods he uses to cull humans in the Old Testament. God's methods of destruction are brilliant and awesome.​

 

[The Irish Ram]

But He can take His blessings and protection away from them if they aren't warranted, correct? When He does, bears eat freely.

Just like He has taken His blessings and protection of this country away. We no longer trust in Him.

 

[Penelope]

Because I just this week had cardiac surgery and am on the mend, but still without a lot of excess energy ....... I found this Commentary that I feel explains these passages well.

"
Elisha wanted, by God’s power, to rescue *Israel from its *sins. And he wanted to free it from the *curses that were a result of those *sins. He had already done this at Jericho. So next he went to Bethel.
But the people in Bethel loved their false gods. They laughed at God’s *prophet. Elisha could do nothing to help them. In fact, the opposite happened. Their wicked behaviour offended God. And 42 youths from that town suffered a terrible punishment.
Bethel was a town that was famous for its *idols. Jeroboam made those *idols so that people would not *worship the *Lord in Jerusalem (1 Kings 12:26-33). God sent a *prophet, who *prophesied a *curse against that place (1 Kings 13:1-2). And the kings in *Israel never stopped that *sin (2 Kings 17:21-23).
The youths in Bethel were doing something that was especially wicked. They were not merely insulting the *prophet. They were also insulting God. They told the *prophet to ‘go up’. So they were laughing at the way that Elijah went up to heaven. But that was not something that Elijah did by human power. God himself did that in order to take Elijah into heaven. So the youths were laughing at God’s deeds.
And the youths also called Elisha a ‘bald man’. The priests of many religions were bald because they shaved their heads. God warned his people not to imitate them (Deuteronomy 14:1). So when the youths called Elisha a ‘bald man’, they were insulting him. They were saying that he was no better than the priests of an *idol. And perhaps here was another meaning of the phrase ‘go up’. The *idols were on the hills above the town. So the real meaning of the insult may be: ‘Go up to heaven if you can! Otherwise, go up and *worship our *idols. You are already bald like our priests. So your religion is no better than ours.’
Elisha did not try to defend himself. He spoke in the *Lord’s name, that is, on behalf of the *Lord. These youths were insulting God, and God would act against them.
Bears are very dangerous animals. Our translation says that the bears killed the youths. Another possible translation is, ‘the bears tore the youths’ bodies open’. That may mean that the youths died. Or it could mean that they suffered terrible injuries.
The lesson for us today is clear. Nobody should ever insult God. And it is both foolish and dangerous to say anything evil about God’s servants.
But there was also a lesson for Elisha to learn. Like Elijah (1 Kings 19:14), Elisha had discovered that most people in *Israel would never obey God. Elisha could not remove all the *sin from *Israel. He could not end the *worship of *idols. He could only do what God sent him to do.
So Elisha left that place. He went to the mountain called Carmel, where Elijah won a great battle against the *prophets of false gods (1 Kings 18:16-40). There he could pray and prepare for his next task as a *prophet.

I thought it was ******* brutal.
Besides Revelations, The Old Testament is the best part of the Bible. ​

The consequences to unrepentant sin is and always will be brutal.....but we bring that brutality upon ourselves, by our very own decisions and actions. Life has many choices, eternity, on the other hand, has only two. It is up to us which we will choose...

I can agree that sinning against a God should be punished, but these were "little children." I just can't see how little children should be torn by bears for mocking a prophet. An adult, maybe but not little children.

 

[turzovka]

It lends credence to the idea the Bible isn't just a book concocted by some mere mortals for the sake of starting a religion for power or for riches. Because you would not put in stories that are that disturbing and ostensibly that cruel. (Although I cannot account for why the Koran would, unless it were demonically influenced?) Nor would you put in commands to eat your Lord's flesh and drink his blood if you wanted to endear yourself to those seeking to know what religion makes sense.

So I do not know why God would order the murders of the 42, but I have a strong suspicion it occurred and it is written down for us to be made aware of. (ps -- I also have a strong suspicion those 42 youths are now in heaven and not the least bit complaining their lives were cut short.)

 

[Mr. Ofo Oao]

With all due respect and I have been searching I can only find translations for "youth". Not little children.

And this was not mocking but threatening.

You have to understand the taunt of "go up". This is after Elijah. They were wishing death on him and for him to go up like Elijah.

42 youths would be considered a gang by any standard even in the OT.

Elisha Is Jeered
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

2 Kings 2 20-25 Bring me a new bowl he said and put... NIV - Online Bible Study

No Ma'am, the full text (2 Kings 2:22-25) from the KJV was quoted in the original post...the KJV says "little children" and it says that they "mocked" Elisha. Sorry but I just can't see little children having to be mauled by bears for mocking a prophet.

 

[Mr. Ofo Oao]

The word used is the same word that described Rahoboam at 40 years of age. Not only were they mocking Elisha, but were trying to convince others that Elijah had not been removed from the earth. So they were.......

God doesn't have to put up with our sh*t to be God.

So, "little children" must be mauled by bears if they mock the prophet? Lol that sounds good to you?

 

[saveliberty]

Better the loss of forty and a lesson learned for generations, than the loss of eternal life for even a generation.

God knows all, most likely none were going to heaven, so he took evil and created the opportunity for good.

 

[September]

The word used is the same word that described Rahoboam at 40 years of age. Not only were they mocking Elisha, but were trying to convince others that Elijah had not been removed from the earth. So they were.......

God doesn't have to put up with our sh*t to be God.

So, "little children" must be mauled by bears if they mock the prophet? Lol that sounds good to you?

Quit trippin'. The Lord works in mysterious ways. For all we know, YHWH could've reincarnated them.
​

 

[hobelim]

You are mistaken. They were most likely in their teens. Old enough to know the consequences of right and wrong and do it anyhow. So they are in hell and it is too late for them but what about you? You still have breath in you. You are still able to repent of your sins and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Why don't you do it and abandon your "a god" philosophy for the Way, the Truth and the Life which is Jesus Christ? No man can come to the Father except through the Son. Repent of your sins and call upon the name of the LORD and be saved. Today is the day of Salvation. Do not go to sleep tonight without settling where you shall be eternally should you not awake in the morning. Today is the day of Salvation. Repent today and call upon the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for trying to help me if you're trying to help...the KJV says "little children."

A problem that I have with Christianity is this Bible scripture:

"And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations." Luke 16:9

This scripture sounds like it is endorsing unrighteousness...I don't agree with this scripture.

Another translation puts it, " so use your worldly wealth to win friends for yourselves so that when money is a thing of the past you may be received into an eternal abode."

 

[hobelim]

The story was almost certainly not written down at the time whatever event happened and was likely written down much later, probably generations later, and could easily include some good old-fashioned Jewish exaggeration. The ancients attributed EVERYTHING to happen as the will of God and/or allowed by God as a consequence for rebelling or failing to obey YHWH. Thus they would interpret such a story as YHWH causing it to happen.

And then again maybe the story was just a way for the ancient Jewish parents to teach their children to respect YHWH and impress upon them that there were terrible consequences in store for those who did not.

Its not likely that two she bears tore apart 42 children literally. If two she bears came out of the forest and charged at 42 children most of them would have easily gotten away.

However if two Jewish she bears saw what the children did they would have killed all 42 of them in the same way that children would say that if their parents ever found out about something wrong that they did they would get killed.

Its not likely any child literally died or were mauled by bears because God got angry at them for calling a prophet baldy.

 

[September]

Elisha's power was twice as strong as Elijah's.

Maybe he used his power to prevent the children from moving, or to make the bears faster and stronger.
​

 

[hobelim]

Elisha's power was twice as strong as Elijah's.

Maybe he used his power to prevent the children from moving, or to make the bears faster and stronger.
​

Nah, two Jewish women saw and heard the children calling the weirdo prophet baldy and tore them up to teach them a lesson...respect for their elders or something.They got caught being mean and got killed for it, figuratively. They were probably much nicer to strangers after that...

.....Or maybe God took the prophet being called baldy personally because he has no hair too and had a murderous hissy fit because children making fun of a bald man is such a terrible sin and he can mutilate children if he wants to because he is a great and mighty God??

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Clearly, its a warning to Progressive who mock the Bible

 

[September]

Elisha's power was twice as strong as Elijah's.

Maybe he used his power to prevent the children from moving, or to make the bears faster and stronger.
​

Nah, two Jewish women saw and heard the children calling the weirdo prophet baldy and tore them up to teach them a lesson...respect for their elders or something.They got caught being mean and got killed for it, figuratively. They were probably much nicer to strangers after that...

.....Or maybe God took the prophet being called baldy personally because he has no hair too and had a murderous hissy fit because children making fun of a bald man is such a terrible sin and he can mutilate children if he wants to because he is a great and mighty God??

If God wishes to consume someone with fire, or strike them down with lightning, or open the ground to swallow them whole, or slay them with ice, or nuke them, or turn them to salt, or destroy them with wind, or wash them away in a flood/ drown them, or poison their water, or inflict a lethal disease on someone or their child, or summon and compel animals to kill them, or compel a human to commit suicide, or use a wall to crush someone, or create a drought to make people starve to death, or empower a human to slay hundreds of thousands in God's name, or send an Angel of death to kill a bunch of babies, or send any of the other angels to kill someone, or use any other destructive abilities to destroy humans...

It is not murder.

Or genocide.

Sure, YHWH was destroying humans, but...

1. We are YHWH's creation

2. YHWH is the most powerful being alive, which we do not compare to even in the slightest. Even demons and angels are like gods compared to us.

So how can one call it "murder" or "genocide", when YHWH uses destructive power on humanity?
​

 

[hobelim]

Elisha's power was twice as strong as Elijah's.

Maybe he used his power to prevent the children from moving, or to make the bears faster and stronger.
​

Nah, two Jewish women saw and heard the children calling the weirdo prophet baldy and tore them up to teach them a lesson...respect for their elders or something.They got caught being mean and got killed for it, figuratively. They were probably much nicer to strangers after that...

.....Or maybe God took the prophet being called baldy personally because he has no hair too and had a murderous hissy fit because children making fun of a bald man is such a terrible sin and he can mutilate children if he wants to because he is a great and mighty God??

If God wishes to consume someone with fire, or strike them down with lightning, or open the ground to swallow them whole, or slay them with ice, or nuke them, or turn them to salt, or destroy them with wind, or wash them away in a flood/ drown them, or poison their water, or inflict a lethal disease on someone or their child, or summon and compel animals to kill them, or compel a human to commit suicide, or use a wall to crush someone, or create a drought to make people starve to death, or empower a human to slay hundreds of thousands in God's name, or send an Angel of death to kill a bunch of babies, or send any of the other angels to kill someone, or use any other destructive abilities to destroy humans...

It is not murder.

Or genocide.

Sure, YHWH was destroying humans, but...

1. We are YHWH's creation

2. YHWH is the most powerful being alive, which we do not compare to even in the slightest. Even demons and angels are like gods compared to us.

So how can one call it "murder" or "genocide", when YHWH uses destructive power on humanity?
​

You make an excellent point. its not like anyone survives.

and everyone alive now would not be living had everyone who lived before not died. dying seems to be a natural part of life.

But still, the story in question was not about God causing 2 bears to maul 42 children because they mocked a bald man.

To think so is to believe something false about God and miss the point of the story entirely. Mistakes like that add up and the next thing you know people go completely nuts and start thinking that God wants people to mutilate unbelievers, the penises of infants, and anyone who mocks the balding, .

 

[alang1216]

It's that kind of unbelievably terrible injustice that makes me certain that the contradiction of a loving and merciful God of Abraham who would commit such a mass murder of His own, chosen, innocent people does not exist. I mean, what? He couldn't think of any better way to exact justice? That isn't rational.

My personal interpretation is that the Bible is not a history so much as a moral guide. Israel suffered a plague so obviously God was unhappy and must have had a reason. The story that made it into the Bible is a cautionary tale of disobeying God. The originators of the story didn't really care if the story was factually correct so long as it reflected the morality of the time. Does it matter that George Washington never really chopped down that cherry tree? Not a bit, the story is an illustration of his honesty. Does it matter that there is no Santa or is it more important to have a world good is rewarded?

 

[Penelope]

Because I just this week had cardiac surgery and am on the mend, but still without a lot of excess energy ....... I found this Commentary that I feel explains these passages well.

I do wish you a quick complete recovery.