Best to Avoid War

[candycorn]

You see, it is better to lose Ukraine, or Poland or even Germany than lose the USA.
The United States are not ready for the large scale war.

And sending missiles and bullets and other arms over there is going to "lose the USA"?

 

[Dayton3]

^^^Told ya. Now that the War Party is in charge, the drums are LOUD!

It isn't a "war party" to want to fulfill our treaty obligations that go back nearly 70 years. And it isn't the U.S. or NATO threatening the Russians.

Defend them...who is "them"? If the Rookies are in France...sure. If the Rooskies are in Ukraine and the French have sent folks over there...nope.

We're obligated to defend any of the 27 other members of NATO with our own blood and treasure if necessary.

 

[Dayton3]

For some reason democrat regimes combined with the U.S. media were historically in favor of war in the 20th century, until it went bad. In whistle stop campaign tours, liberal elitist academic Woody Wilson sought to distance himself from dastardly republican heroes like Teddy Roosevelt and promised that he would never send American boys to fight in a foreign war. Wilson broke his campaign promise and the media supported sending Doughboys to fight for France in a war of attrition in filthy trenches. We had to do it again about 25 years later when the media supported FDR's invitation of a Japanese attack in the Pacific when the prevailing opinion among democrat elitists, supported by the media, was that the Japanese couldn't build a ship that would float or a plane that would fly. FDR's hand picked heir apparent,, timid Harry Truman couldn't control his own hand picked general in Korea but the media manufactured a feisty persona for Truman and called Korea "the forgotten war" even though we lost as many American Troops in three years as we did in Vietnam in ten years. LBJ's "Tonkin Gulf Crisis" was fraudulent but the mainstream media supported sending Troops to Vietnam

Which "Gulf of Tonkin" crisis are you referring to? The famous one on August 4th never happened and is the one people often refer to.

But the Gulf of Tonkin incident on August 2nd, absolutely happened and was openly admitted to by the North Vietnamese.

and the U.S. did not lose as many troops in the Korean War in only three years as it lost in Vietnam. That's a myth promoted by Korean War veterans (my dad was one) and their advocates. The U.S. lost roughly 59,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War and about 33,000 in the Korean War.

 

[Mushroom]

Wilson broke his campaign promise and the media supported sending Doughboys to fight for France in a war of attrition in filthy trenches.

Of course, that was also after Germany was trying to get another nation to invade the US. Promising to give them assistance in doing so.

 

[Mushroom]

Which "Gulf of Tonkin" crisis are you referring to? The famous one on August 4th never happened and is the one people often refer to.

But the Gulf of Tonkin incident on August 2nd, absolutely happened and was openly admitted to by the North Vietnamese.

The story as accepted now by both the US and Vietnam is that the Vietnamese were moving their boats around aggressively hoping to cause a reaction by the US. Not unlike what Iran has been doing off and on for years. And the US did react, but there was no attack, just aggressive movements on 4 August. And it is the kind of thing that North Korea still does fairly frequently to South Korean vessels.

 

[whitehall]

Which "Gulf of Tonkin" crisis are you referring to? The famous one on August 4th never happened and is the one people often refer to.

But the Gulf of Tonkin incident on August 2nd, absolutely happened and was openly admitted to by the North Vietnamese.

and the U.S. did not lose as many troops in the Korean War in only three years as it lost in Vietnam. That's a myth promoted by Korean War veterans (my dad was one) and their advocates. The U.S. lost roughly 59,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War and about 33,000 in the Korean War.

Truman lost control of his WW1 veteran general who never spent a single night in Korea and depended on "intelligence" from racist WW2 general Ned Almond, who posted only glowing progress while U.S. Troops were lured into the biggest ambush in military history at the Chosin. The casualty lists from Korea were estimated at about 50,000 troops for abut 40 years until revised down by the Clinton military archivists that restricted Korean war deaths to the actual peninsula. What happened to the other 15,000 Troops who died during the Korean War conflict?

 

[Dayton3]

You see, it is better to lose Ukraine, or Poland or even Germany than lose the USA.
The United States are not ready for the large scale war.

The U.S. could be ready surprisingly quickly.

 

[Dayton3]

Truman lost control of his WW1 veteran general who never spent a single night in Korea and depended on "intelligence" from racist WW2 general Ned Almond, who posted only glowing progress while U.S. Troops were lured into the biggest ambush in military history at the Chosin. The casualty lists from Korea were estimated at about 50,000 troops for abut 40 years until revised down by the Clinton military archivists that restricted Korean war deaths to the actual peninsula. What happened to the other 15,000 Troops who died during the Korean War conflict?

They died around the rest of the world. Remember that even in the most peaceful years of the Cold War thousands of Americans died.

 

[whitehall]

They died around the rest of the world. Remember that even in the most peaceful years of the Cold War thousands of Americans died.

Fifteen thousand Americans "died around the world" in the three years during the Korean conflict? How is that possible? About seven or eight thousand Troops died during the entire ten year Iraq/Iran/ terrorist conflicts around the world in the 80's and 90's.

 

[candycorn]

It isn't a "war party" to want to fulfill our treaty obligations that go back nearly 70 years. And it isn't the U.S. or NATO threatening the Russians.

We're obligated to defend any of the 27 other members of NATO with our own blood and treasure if necessary.

I don't think Ukraine is one of those 27 members...

 

[Mushroom]

who never spent a single night in Korea

Oh that is complete nonsense.

Fifteen thousand Americans "died around the world" in the three years during the Korean conflict? How is that possible?

The single biggest loss of life most times is actually accidents. During the Cold War, the demands of round the lock air crews and most of the Navy being at sea at all times led to a lot of deaths. Mechanical failures, incidents during training, and just simple "accidents".

In all the years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, only a couple of months actually saw more combat deaths than simply from illness and accidents. Vietnam was actually the last conflict the US had where the majority of casualties were from combat and not other causes. And even in Vietnam, 1/4 of deaths were accidents.

 

[Dayton3]

Fifteen thousand Americans "died around the world" in the three years during the Korean conflict? How is that possible? About seven or eight thousand Troops died during the entire ten year Iraq/Iran/ terrorist conflicts around the world in the 80's and 90's.

Look it up. As recently as the 1980s with a far smaller military overall and few active conflicts an average of 3,000 American military personnel died around the world every year. Training, accidents, what have you.

 

[BackAgain]

Democrats get us into wars. So lectures from Democrats don’t warrant much weight.

as considered national policy, a decision on whether or not to get entangled in foreign military conflicts is actually more complex than the present day liberals like to see or admit.

Think back to Jolly Old England around the time that Hitler was on the move. They had their political debates. Chamberlain and the majority sought their “peace in our time” and guys like Churchill argues that a maniac like Hitler HAD to be fought.

Our present day libs sound like the Chamberlain faction. Putin may not be the complete monster that Hitler was, but it is still pretty clear that he is seeking to re-create the SOVIET UNION. That possible outcome doesn’t bode well for the free world or world safety.

I wonder if the present day Chamberlains are capable of contemplating this notion of “war bad.” Yeah. It mostly is. But fighting a war is how Hitler and the Japanese empire got defeated. So, sometimes, war is actually necessary.

 

[BackAgain]

Democrats get us into wars. So lectures from Democrats don’t warrant much weight.

as considered national policy, a decision on whether or not to get entangled in foreign military conflicts is actually more complex than the present day liberals like to see or admit.

Think back to Jolly Old England around the time that Hitler was on the move. They had their political debates. Chamberlain and the majority sought their “peace in our time” and guys like Churchill argued that a maniac like Hitler HAD to be fought.

Our present day libs sound like the Chamberlain faction. Putin may not be the complete monster that Hitler was, but it is still pretty clear that he is seeking to re-create the SOVIET UNION. That possible outcome doesn’t bode well for the free world or world safety.

I wonder if the present day Chamberlains are capable of contemplating this notion of “war bad.” Yeah. It mostly is. But fighting a war is how Hitler and the Japanese empire got defeated. So, sometimes, war is actually necessary.

 

[Mushroom]

Look it up. As recently as the 1980s with a far smaller military overall and few active conflicts an average of 3,000 American military personnel died around the world every year. Training, accidents, what have you.

Just picking a year at random, in 1985 there were 2,252 deaths in the military. 1,476 from accidents, 0 from hostile action.

In 2020, there were 1,017 deaths. 9 from hostile action.

These statistics are readily available. And most in the military are well aware of this fact. Even one of the worst years in the 1980's was 1983, when 2,465 were killed (1,413 by accidents). 18 in hostile action (Invasion of Grenada), 263 when terrorists blew up the Marine Barracks in Lebanon. When I went back into the military (2007), in only 2 years out of 13 did hostile action kill more than accidents. And even in those 2 years, hostile action was less than 1/2 of total deaths.

And one of those lost in 1985 was a friend I went to High School with. He was returning home from Saudi Arabia when his aircraft crashed in Newfoundland, he was one of the 248 soldiers killed in that one accident. Over the decades I have lost many I have served with, only 2 from combat.

DCAS Reports - Active Duty Deaths by Year and Manner

Heck., in 1991 with the Gulf War, 1,787 died in the military. 931 to accidents, 147 to hostile action. Over twice that many (308) died from illness.

 

[DudleySmith]

Re WW I besides the Zimmerman Telegram there was the U-boat campaign in the Atlantic and Med and the sinkings of U.S. ships.

German U-Boat Attacks: 1915-17

German U-Boat Attacks: Pre-War Following the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand on June 28, 1914, and the start of World War I in Europe that August, American and German relations went from crisis to crisis due to Germany's insistence on submarine warfare to defeat the Allies. In the...

www.history.navy.mil

There were also hundreds of other 'neutral' ships under Panamanian flags and others carrying U.S. trade sunk as well. The fantasy that neutrality and isolationism would be respected by belligerents should have been laughed out of Congress by Jefferson's Presidency, but the silliness of that kiddie fantasy still persists to the present day.

While Presidents who are perceived as weak certainly contribute to attacks on the U.S. by assorted vermin, they aren't the cause of them or our wars; the vermin preying on us are.

 

[Silver Cat]

And sending missiles and bullets and other arms over there is going to "lose the USA"?

Sending missiles and bullets won't change anything. The question is in possible escalation in Europe, Middle East, Africa, Latin America and more than possible military cooperation between Russia and China.
Say nothing about rocketed oil and gas prices.

 

[Mushroom]

Re WW I besides the Zimmerman Telegram there was the U-boat campaign in the Atlantic and Med and the sinkings of U.S. ships.

Which I already mentioned. In early 1916 Germany swore to and did stop the "Unrestricted Sinking" of ships in the Atlantic. But in 2 February 1917 they again stated they were returning to unrestricted submarine warfare, and the US immediately sent them a strong letter stating that was a matter of "Grave Concern" to the US, and then severing all diplomatic ties with Germany. The US was still waiting to see if they would actually resume the unrestricted submarine warfare when on 24 January they were presented the Zimmermann Telegram.

Which was the final straw. The Germans had yet to expand the sinking of ships, which indeed by itself would likely have resulted in the US entering the war. But the Zimmermann Telegram was the final straw, which combined with their stated intent on sinking any ships in the North Atlantic was more than enough to get the US in the war.

The subs was of grave concern, but the telegram was the casus belli.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Which "Gulf of Tonkin" crisis are you referring to? The famous one on August 4th never happened and is the one people often refer to.

But the Gulf of Tonkin incident on August 2nd, absolutely happened and was openly admitted to by the North Vietnamese.

and the U.S. did not lose as many troops in the Korean War in only three years as it lost in Vietnam. That's a myth promoted by Korean War veterans (my dad was one) and their advocates. The U.S. lost roughly 59,000 soldiers in the Vietnam War and about 33,000 in the Korean War.

The Unpatriotic Sissies Who Were Sheltered From the Draft Took Over America and Changed the Narrative in Order to Exclude Their Treason

Another unemphasized fact is that more Americans died fighting the Viet Cong than died fighting the Japanese.

 

[whitehall]

During WW2 every Military death including disease and accidents and probably suicide was counted in statistics as a casualty of war. Vietnam statistics include deaths from disease and accidents. Nobody had a problem with that concept until the Clinton administration decided that the Korean war statists would include only combat deaths on the peninsula. Why was it done? During the Korean war the government forced Soldiers and Sailors to participate in Atomic Bomb tests. Is it possible that the government hid those casualties?