Ayn Rand's Ugly Step Child

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I think you should read Woodward's "Maestro" on Greenspan before you draw that conclusion as your final one. With the exception of Jimmy Carter, he served every president since 1969, and there have been several tumultuous economic situations in all that time, and the free market has survived it all (so far), even this one. I haven't glanced at that book in a long time, but I do remember being struck by Greenspan telling Woodward that the president he felt best understood the economy was Bill Clinton.

I can look up the things Greenspan has done easily enough on the internet, and his policies were not indicative of any support for a true free market. However, you seem to be of the opinion that we currently have a free market, which means that you, like Dev, do not have an accurate idea of what a free market really is.

I know we don't have a free market. We haven't has one since the emergence of city-states. However, in order for such a system to exist ( the models proposed by Rothbard and von Mises and, to a lesser extent, von Hayek), all actors in said system would have play by the rules. Given the nature of human beings, this is never going to happen. Groups of people, whether it's the state or corporations, pursue their own agendas.

Yet fraud would still be a crime on the free market.

 

[Tony_S]

I can look up the things Greenspan has done easily enough on the internet, and his policies were not indicative of any support for a true free market. However, you seem to be of the opinion that we currently have a free market, which means that you, like Dev, do not have an accurate idea of what a free market really is.

I know we don't have a free market. We haven't has one since the emergence of city-states. However, in order for such a system to exist ( the models proposed by Rothbard and von Mises and, to a lesser extent, von Hayek), all actors in said system would have play by the rules. Given the nature of human beings, this is never going to happen. Groups of people, whether it's the state or corporations, pursue their own agendas.

Yet fraud would still be a crime on the free market.

I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I know we don't have a free market. We haven't has one since the emergence of city-states. However, in order for such a system to exist ( the models proposed by Rothbard and von Mises and, to a lesser extent, von Hayek), all actors in said system would have play by the rules. Given the nature of human beings, this is never going to happen. Groups of people, whether it's the state or corporations, pursue their own agendas.

Yet fraud would still be a crime on the free market.

I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

You're saying that people wouldn't play by the rules, and I agree. It's simple human nature, some are going to try to cheat the system no matter what system is in place. But that's not an argument against the free market. If people commit fraud then you prosecute them.

 

[Douger]

The problem is the entire monetary system.. We use debt for money.. federal reserve notes.. that we have to buy at interest.. and it causes a never ending cycle of going deeper and deeper into debt just to buy our own money.. We cannot get out of the mess until we change the entire system.

nothing wrong with debt as long as it is manageable.

Debt iz for fools to benefit the elite. Always has been.
Don't forget to pay your VISA

 

[mudwhistle]

Greenspan also rejected free markets, despite his rhetoric, and objectivism by becoming the Federal Reserve chairman and foolishly attempting to centrally plan the economy. Keeping interest rates at 1% during the dot-com bust was not something the free market would have done, and inevitably led to the housing bubble and bust. Invoking Alan Greenspan as a true advocate of free markets is absolutely dishonest.

Greenspan is married to Andrea Mitchell...NBC News journalist.....and avid Obama supporter.

I rest my case.

 

[Tony_S]

Yet fraud would still be a crime on the free market.

I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

You're saying that people wouldn't play by the rules, and I agree. It's simple human nature, some are going to try to cheat the system no matter what system is in place. But that's not an argument against the free market. If people commit fraud then you prosecute them.

Who will prosecute them? Our government, which has turned into maggot-infested corpse, routinely throws the rule of law out the window. The state has become a parasitical host for special interests.

Back to this mythical free market. Where is it? When has the US or any nation-state ever operated under a 'free market' system? I see monopolies, duopolies and cartels running the show.

 

[mudwhistle]

The problem is the entire monetary system.. We use debt for money.. federal reserve notes.. that we have to buy at interest.. and it causes a never ending cycle of going deeper and deeper into debt just to buy our own money.. We cannot get out of the mess until we change the entire system.

nothing wrong with debt as long as it is manageable.

Sure it's managable. Just don't think about keeping any of your own earnings because in order handle this debt we need to double and triple taxes to pay for it.

I keep being reminded of the bitching the Dems did when the debt was a managable $240 bil. Now it's over $1.2 trillion and with the health care bill it will be over $2 trillion easy. That's just at today's inflation. Not the inflation we'll be experiencing in the next couple of years because of the devaluation of the dollar under Obama.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I don't follow. Could you elaborate?

You're saying that people wouldn't play by the rules, and I agree. It's simple human nature, some are going to try to cheat the system no matter what system is in place. But that's not an argument against the free market. If people commit fraud then you prosecute them.

Who will prosecute them? Our government, which has turned into maggot-infested corpse, routinely throws the rule of law out the window. The state has become a parasitical host for special interests.

Back to this mythical free market. Where is it? When has the US or any nation-state ever operated under a 'free market' system? I see monopolies, duopolies and cartels running the show.

That is a legitimate function of the government, to prosecute fraud. Madoff is a good example of this.

 

[Tony_S]

You're saying that people wouldn't play by the rules, and I agree. It's simple human nature, some are going to try to cheat the system no matter what system is in place. But that's not an argument against the free market. If people commit fraud then you prosecute them.

Who will prosecute them? Our government, which has turned into maggot-infested corpse, routinely throws the rule of law out the window. The state has become a parasitical host for special interests.

Back to this mythical free market. Where is it? When has the US or any nation-state ever operated under a 'free market' system? I see monopolies, duopolies and cartels running the show.

That is a legitimate function of the government, to prosecute fraud. Madoff is a good example of this.

Madoff's scheming is amateur hour next to what the FED, the Treasury and Goldman have engaged in. I think these institutions need to be charged under RICO.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Who will prosecute them? Our government, which has turned into maggot-infested corpse, routinely throws the rule of law out the window. The state has become a parasitical host for special interests.

Back to this mythical free market. Where is it? When has the US or any nation-state ever operated under a 'free market' system? I see monopolies, duopolies and cartels running the show.

That is a legitimate function of the government, to prosecute fraud. Madoff is a good example of this.

Madoff's scheming is amateur hour next to what the FED, the Treasury and Goldman have engaged in. I think these institutions need to be charged under RICO.

I agree, I was merely giving an example.

 

[Tony_S]

That is a legitimate function of the government, to prosecute fraud. Madoff is a good example of this.

Madoff's scheming is amateur hour next to what the FED, the Treasury and Goldman have engaged in. I think these institutions need to be charged under RICO.

I agree, I was merely giving an example.

Barring some sort of nationalization, the FED is going to keep engaging is the same shady business practices. Personally, I'd like to see the FED nationalized so the primary dealers commit suicide. Poetic justice and all....

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Madoff's scheming is amateur hour next to what the FED, the Treasury and Goldman have engaged in. I think these institutions need to be charged under RICO.

I agree, I was merely giving an example.

Barring some sort of nationalization, the FED is going to keep engaging is the same shady business practices. Personally, I'd like to see the FED nationalized so the primary dealers commit suicide. Poetic justice and all....

I'd rather see the Fed abolished altogether.

 

[Tony_S]

I agree, I was merely giving an example.

Barring some sort of nationalization, the FED is going to keep engaging is the same shady business practices. Personally, I'd like to see the FED nationalized so the primary dealers commit suicide. Poetic justice and all....

I'd rather see the Fed abolished altogether.

In theory, if it was seized, it could be absorbed by the Treasury. The gubment could then issue its own credit at very low interest, with 20 or 30 year bonds. Problem solved, system reboot....At the same time, you prevent the country from turning into a failed state.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Barring some sort of nationalization, the FED is going to keep engaging is the same shady business practices. Personally, I'd like to see the FED nationalized so the primary dealers commit suicide. Poetic justice and all....

I'd rather see the Fed abolished altogether.

In theory, if it was seized, it could be absorbed by the Treasury. The gubment could then issue its own credit at very low interest, with 20 or 30 year bonds. Problem solved, system reboot....At the same time, you prevent the country from turning into a failed state.

Are you saying that abolishing the Fed would turn the country into a failed state?

 

[Tony_S]

I'd rather see the Fed abolished altogether.

In theory, if it was seized, it could be absorbed by the Treasury. The gubment could then issue its own credit at very low interest, with 20 or 30 year bonds. Problem solved, system reboot....At the same time, you prevent the country from turning into a failed state.

Are you saying that abolishing the Fed would turn the country into a failed state?

No, I'm saying the liquidation camp is insane, because of the nature of the worldwide economic depression. The problems are in the derivatives market. There's one quadrillion in worldwide derivatives which can't be papered over. They need to be banned and we need to salvage what's left of the economy. There's no magical self-correction mechanism for this type of time bomb. There's no invisible hand, no liquidation of these types of instruments.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

In theory, if it was seized, it could be absorbed by the Treasury. The gubment could then issue its own credit at very low interest, with 20 or 30 year bonds. Problem solved, system reboot....At the same time, you prevent the country from turning into a failed state.

Are you saying that abolishing the Fed would turn the country into a failed state?

No, I'm saying the liquidation camp is insane, because of the nature of the worldwide economic depression. The problems are in the derivatives market. There's one quadrillion in worldwide derivatives which can't be papered over. They need to be banned and we need to salvage what's left of the economy. There's no magical self-correction mechanism for this type of time bomb. There's no invisible hand, no liquidation of these types of instruments.

Except you can't avoid the liquidation without making things worse. The market must correct itself. The medicine may not taste good but you still need to take it.

 

[Tony_S]

Are you saying that abolishing the Fed would turn the country into a failed state?

No, I'm saying the liquidation camp is insane, because of the nature of the worldwide economic depression. The problems are in the derivatives market. There's one quadrillion in worldwide derivatives which can't be papered over. They need to be banned and we need to salvage what's left of the economy. There's no magical self-correction mechanism for this type of time bomb. There's no invisible hand, no liquidation of these types of instruments.

Except you can't avoid the liquidation without making things worse. The market must correct itself. The medicine may not taste good but you still need to take it.

No, the 'market' doesn't have to correct itself, given the nature of the derivatives meltdown. We are witnessing the disintegration of the worldwide financial system. This is also the end result of decades of deindustrialization and the ascent of casino capitalism. The major money center banks have become zombie banks. As I've said in the past, this is probably the biggest Ponzi Scheme in the history of mankind.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No, I'm saying the liquidation camp is insane, because of the nature of the worldwide economic depression. The problems are in the derivatives market. There's one quadrillion in worldwide derivatives which can't be papered over. They need to be banned and we need to salvage what's left of the economy. There's no magical self-correction mechanism for this type of time bomb. There's no invisible hand, no liquidation of these types of instruments.

Except you can't avoid the liquidation without making things worse. The market must correct itself. The medicine may not taste good but you still need to take it.

No, the 'market' doesn't have to correct itself, given the nature of the derivatives meltdown. We are witnessing the disintegration of the worldwide financial system. This is also the end result of decades of deindustrialization and the ascent of casino capitalism. The major money center banks have become zombie banks. As I've said in the past, this is probably the biggest Ponzi Scheme in the history of mankind.

That's what the recession means. It means the market needs to correct itself, and that's what the recession does. It's not pleasant, but it's necessary.

 

[Tony_S]

Except you can't avoid the liquidation without making things worse. The market must correct itself. The medicine may not taste good but you still need to take it.

No, the 'market' doesn't have to correct itself, given the nature of the derivatives meltdown. We are witnessing the disintegration of the worldwide financial system. This is also the end result of decades of deindustrialization and the ascent of casino capitalism. The major money center banks have become zombie banks. As I've said in the past, this is probably the biggest Ponzi Scheme in the history of mankind.

That's what the recession means. It means the market needs to correct itself, and that's what the recession does. It's not pleasant, but it's necessary.

This isn't the business cycle at work, although some problems can be related to the easy credit policies of FED during the 90s.

Derivatives are speculation, paper stacked on paper, etc. Some of these exotic instruments were repackaged and resold as well. One cannot liquidate illiquid assets.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No, the 'market' doesn't have to correct itself, given the nature of the derivatives meltdown. We are witnessing the disintegration of the worldwide financial system. This is also the end result of decades of deindustrialization and the ascent of casino capitalism. The major money center banks have become zombie banks. As I've said in the past, this is probably the biggest Ponzi Scheme in the history of mankind.

That's what the recession means. It means the market needs to correct itself, and that's what the recession does. It's not pleasant, but it's necessary.

This isn't the business cycle at work, although some problems can be related to the easy credit policies of FED during the 90s.

Derivatives are speculation, paper stacked on paper, etc. Some of these exotic instruments were repackaged and resold as well. One cannot liquidate illiquid assets.

Of course this is the business cycle at work. The Fed's low interest rates are what caused this recession.