Atomic bomb

[forkup]

... The only thing you can do is try to end it as quickly and painlessly as possible. ......

Wouldn't that approach suggest that any possible surrender of your enemy earlier in the war at least be explored thoroughly?

Yes, who said they didn't? ...

fdr

Sure he said that. But was that what happened? .....

Yes, that's what happened. Prior to departing for the Yalta Conference, fdr received a 40-page communique from MacArthur outlining no fewer than five separate overtures to surrender that he had received through various channels. fdr rejected the very notion out of hand, proclaiming MacArthur "our greatest general, but our worst politician." The war was serving fdr's political interests just fine, and he had no intention of stopping until he had a chance to try out his new toy by slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians. If tens of thousands more American servicemen died in the meantime, he was evidently willing to accept that.

Does that change the possibility that in private a less hyperbolic calculation was being made?

 

[Blues Man]

I have to agree with those who say the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives than they killed. The firebombing of Tokyo killed more than the bombings of hamburg and Dresden together. Many more than the atomic bomb. If the atom bomb had not been used what was the alternative? More fire bombings? Starve Japan with the navy blockade. Invasion of Japan would have been much more bloody than invasion of Germany was.
Also American soldiers and Navy were still fighting the Japanese in Philipines and other battles as well as fighting kamikazes. American lives were being lost and more would be lost if not for the atom bomb. If the bomb had not been used and later the people discovered the war could have been ended fast with it and it was not used would political careers not be ruined?

yes the good old days where our military could kill millions of civilians

 

[Unkotare]

.... quite literally went against everything they held dear, for most more important than life. dying was not considered a punishment but a favor .....

You read too many comic books.

Nope I can read history books to come to that conclusion. In it I can read about countless Island garrisons being wiped out to a man quite often by banzai charges. Countless cases of Sepuku, or simply by throwing yourself on grenades. I can read about the Kamikaze or about thousands of civilians throwing themselves of rocks on Saipan.

To say that a people who do that, consider death preferred to offering themselves up to the mercy of the allies is a statement I can make without the slightest hyperbole.

Simpletons stop thinking when they are given a narrative they can feel comfortable with. Ignorance enables the process.

 

[Unkotare]

.... I highly doubt it would have had the same impact on the Emperor if they would have targeted a purely military target ....

You contradict yourself.

Do I really?

Yes.

 

[forkup]

.... quite literally went against everything they held dear, for most more important than life. dying was not considered a punishment but a favor .....

You read too many comic books.

Nope I can read history books to come to that conclusion. In it I can read about countless Island garrisons being wiped out to a man quite often by banzai charges. Countless cases of Sepuku, or simply by throwing yourself on grenades. I can read about the Kamikaze or about thousands of civilians throwing themselves of rocks on Saipan.

To say that a people who do that, consider death preferred to offering themselves up to the mercy of the allies is a statement I can make without the slightest hyperbole.

Simpletons stop thinking when they are given a narrative they can feel comfortable with. Ignorance enables the process.

This is true. Are you accusing me of either? If so feel free to expose my inadequacy.

 

[forkup]

.... I highly doubt it would have had the same impact on the Emperor if they would have targeted a purely military target ....

You contradict yourself.

Do I really?

Yes.

Yes what? Are you incapable or simply unwilling to support your position?

 

[Unkotare]

.... quite literally went against everything they held dear, for most more important than life. dying was not considered a punishment but a favor .....

You read too many comic books.

Nope I can read history books to come to that conclusion. In it I can read about countless Island garrisons being wiped out to a man quite often by banzai charges. Countless cases of Sepuku, or simply by throwing yourself on grenades. I can read about the Kamikaze or about thousands of civilians throwing themselves of rocks on Saipan.

To say that a people who do that, consider death preferred to offering themselves up to the mercy of the allies is a statement I can make without the slightest hyperbole.

Simpletons stop thinking when they are given a narrative they can feel comfortable with. Ignorance enables the process.

This is true. Are you accusing me of either?

Both.

 

[Unkotare]

.... I highly doubt it would have had the same impact on the Emperor if they would have targeted a purely military target ....

You contradict yourself.

Do I really?

Yes.

Yes what?

Yes you contradict yourself.

 

[forkup]

.... quite literally went against everything they held dear, for most more important than life. dying was not considered a punishment but a favor .....

You read too many comic books.

Nope I can read history books to come to that conclusion. In it I can read about countless Island garrisons being wiped out to a man quite often by banzai charges. Countless cases of Sepuku, or simply by throwing yourself on grenades. I can read about the Kamikaze or about thousands of civilians throwing themselves of rocks on Saipan.

To say that a people who do that, consider death preferred to offering themselves up to the mercy of the allies is a statement I can make without the slightest hyperbole.

Simpletons stop thinking when they are given a narrative they can feel comfortable with. Ignorance enables the process.

This is true. Are you accusing me of either?

Both.

But you aren't willing to try to support it? Isn't it funny that people's professed expertise so often seems to be only matched by their inability to actually show that expertise?

 

[forkup]

.... I highly doubt it would have had the same impact on the Emperor if they would have targeted a purely military target ....

You contradict yourself.

Do I really?

Yes.

Yes what?

Yes you contradict yourself.

Ok, now feel absolutely free to troll some more.

 

[Unkotare]

.... quite literally went against everything they held dear, for most more important than life. dying was not considered a punishment but a favor .....

You read too many comic books.

Nope I can read history books to come to that conclusion. In it I can read about countless Island garrisons being wiped out to a man quite often by banzai charges. Countless cases of Sepuku, or simply by throwing yourself on grenades. I can read about the Kamikaze or about thousands of civilians throwing themselves of rocks on Saipan.

To say that a people who do that, consider death preferred to offering themselves up to the mercy of the allies is a statement I can make without the slightest hyperbole.

Simpletons stop thinking when they are given a narrative they can feel comfortable with. Ignorance enables the process.

This is true. Are you accusing me of either?

Both.

But you aren't willing to try to support it? ...

If you had bothered to read all of the posts on this one thread alone, you would have seen that I explained how propaganda from the militarists in the Japanese government and news of how Japanese POWs and war dead were not infrequently mutilated encouraged a fear that capture by their 'enemy' would be worse than a quick death. Those captured by the Soviets found their worst fears realized. Despite all that, Japanese soldiers did surrender throughout the war, up to 50,000 by war's end. Japanese people, then as now, value life as much as anyone. Even in the years vaguely suggested in the comic books you learned your history of the nation from, Samurai and the people they served valued life. During WWII, as today, Americans recognized and admired an honorable and selfless death when no other option was available. The soldier who threw himself on top of a live grenade to save his fellow soldiers was considered to have died a hero. Did he hunger for death, or did he make a selfless decision for the sake of his fellows and his country?

 

[Unkotare]

... I highly doubt it would have had the same impact on the Emperor if they would have targeted a purely military target ...

Why would anything have any impact if, as you ridiculously believe, he could not possibly cared about who died anyway?

 

[shoshi]

The war was over before he took charge from Stalin’s Stooge. Then he went an mass murdered thousands of defenseless Japanese women and children, yet you find this admirable.

Damn right!

Of course all you know about World War II came only from your indoctrination and maybe the word of one or two people who went into hiding to escape their duty to America.

Truman's ultimate nipping of the Nips saved countless thousands of American lives. Yes, Japan would have ultimately surrendered but only after countless Americans died without reason.

There were going to be horrendous death tolls either way.

Of course you would have far much more preferred that they be AMERICAN dead rather than Japs.
Would you have felt that way had a parent been among those "murdered" as you choose to style it? Or, wait, would you even be here? Yeah, given that possibility....maybe it would have been better your way.

Think that through before replying. If you are allowed to....or if you are capable.

I’m not the one who believes the lying State. You are. Our criminal government didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only fools and pussies think Truman right, in mass murdering defenseless women and children. Men of honor never murder women and children. Cowards do.

Do you condemn the firebombing of Tokyo that killed many more than the atom bomb?

 

[gipper]

The war was over before he took charge from Stalin’s Stooge. Then he went an mass murdered thousands of defenseless Japanese women and children, yet you find this admirable.

Damn right!

Of course all you know about World War II came only from your indoctrination and maybe the word of one or two people who went into hiding to escape their duty to America.

Truman's ultimate nipping of the Nips saved countless thousands of American lives. Yes, Japan would have ultimately surrendered but only after countless Americans died without reason.

There were going to be horrendous death tolls either way.

Of course you would have far much more preferred that they be AMERICAN dead rather than Japs.
Would you have felt that way had a parent been among those "murdered" as you choose to style it? Or, wait, would you even be here? Yeah, given that possibility....maybe it would have been better your way.

Think that through before replying. If you are allowed to....or if you are capable.

I’m not the one who believes the lying State. You are. Our criminal government didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only fools and pussies think Truman right, in mass murdering defenseless women and children. Men of honor never murder women and children. Cowards do.

Do you condemn the firebombing of Tokyo that killed many more than the atom bomb?

Absolutely. I also condemn the terrible fire bombings of German civilians. The Dresden fire bombing was one of the worst. There were no military installations there. It was a war crime that Churchill should have been hung for.

The USA has a long history of using total war, mass murdering defenseless civilians, though most Americans are uninformed of our criminal government’s atrocities. It started with Dishonest Abe, who committed treason by murdering Americans. He too should have been hung as a war criminal.

You might point out to the Asian poster in this thread that he is a hypocrite. He condemns Truman’s actions, but loves Dishonest Abe’s. Dumb. Really dumb.

 

[shoshi]

The war was over before he took charge from Stalin’s Stooge. Then he went an mass murdered thousands of defenseless Japanese women and children, yet you find this admirable.

Damn right!

Of course all you know about World War II came only from your indoctrination and maybe the word of one or two people who went into hiding to escape their duty to America.

Truman's ultimate nipping of the Nips saved countless thousands of American lives. Yes, Japan would have ultimately surrendered but only after countless Americans died without reason.

There were going to be horrendous death tolls either way.

Of course you would have far much more preferred that they be AMERICAN dead rather than Japs.
Would you have felt that way had a parent been among those "murdered" as you choose to style it? Or, wait, would you even be here? Yeah, given that possibility....maybe it would have been better your way.

Think that through before replying. If you are allowed to....or if you are capable.

I’m not the one who believes the lying State. You are. Our criminal government didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only fools and pussies think Truman right, in mass murdering defenseless women and children. Men of honor never murder women and children. Cowards do.

Do you condemn the firebombing of Tokyo that killed many more than the atom bomb?

Absolutely. I also condemn the terrible fire bombings of German civilians. The Dresden fire bombing was one of the worst. There were no military installations there. It was a war crime that Churchill should have been hung for.

The USA has a long history of using total war, mass murdering defenseless civilians, though most Americans are uninformed of our criminal government’s atrocities. It started with Dishonest Abe, who committed treason by murdering Americans. He too should have been hung as a war criminal.

You might point out to the Asian poster in this thread that he is a hypocrite. He condemns Truman’s actions, but loves Dishonest Abe’s. Dumb. Really dumb.

i agree Dresden was wrong. But for the atom bomb how many would have died if it had not been used? At the time American soldiers were training for the big one. Invasion of Japan. That would be very bloody. And how would the American people react if they discovered the war could have been ended fast and was not? political careers would have ended.

 

[HenryBHough]

Inescapable fact:

About 25% of those posting on this board would not exist today if Truman had not nuked Japan.

Why? Because a father or grandfather would have been killed along with several hundred thousand other Americans with a conventional approach toward defeating Japan.

On the other hand, some of those 25% might be alive but have different complexions and eye shapes since they would have been born to American women forced to perform as "comfort women" for Jap soldiers.

Or........are there? Maybe one or two????

 

[gipper]

The war was over before he took charge from Stalin’s Stooge. Then he went an mass murdered thousands of defenseless Japanese women and children, yet you find this admirable.

Damn right!

Of course all you know about World War II came only from your indoctrination and maybe the word of one or two people who went into hiding to escape their duty to America.

Truman's ultimate nipping of the Nips saved countless thousands of American lives. Yes, Japan would have ultimately surrendered but only after countless Americans died without reason.

There were going to be horrendous death tolls either way.

Of course you would have far much more preferred that they be AMERICAN dead rather than Japs.
Would you have felt that way had a parent been among those "murdered" as you choose to style it? Or, wait, would you even be here? Yeah, given that possibility....maybe it would have been better your way.

Think that through before replying. If you are allowed to....or if you are capable.

I’m not the one who believes the lying State. You are. Our criminal government didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only fools and pussies think Truman right, in mass murdering defenseless women and children. Men of honor never murder women and children. Cowards do.

Do you condemn the firebombing of Tokyo that killed many more than the atom bomb?

Absolutely. I also condemn the terrible fire bombings of German civilians. The Dresden fire bombing was one of the worst. There were no military installations there. It was a war crime that Churchill should have been hung for.

The USA has a long history of using total war, mass murdering defenseless civilians, though most Americans are uninformed of our criminal government’s atrocities. It started with Dishonest Abe, who committed treason by murdering Americans. He too should have been hung as a war criminal.

You might point out to the Asian poster in this thread that he is a hypocrite. He condemns Truman’s actions, but loves Dishonest Abe’s. Dumb. Really dumb.

i agree Dresden was wrong. But for the atom bomb how many would have died if it had not been used? At the time American soldiers were training for the big one. Invasion of Japan. That would be very bloody. And how would the American people react if they discovered the war could have been ended fast and was not? political careers would have ended.

No. Wrong. What it would have been is a massacre of Japanese women, children, and old men by US troops. Americans seem to think, as you do, that Japan should have just stopped fighting while they were being mercilessly destroyed from the air, by US bombers. If we were invaded by a foreign force intent on destroying us, most Americans were put up a fight, just as the Japanese would have.

Are you aware that months before the A bombings, the US bombing missions went to daylight bombing WITHOUT fighter support? Japan couldn’t do shit to defend itself, yet the bombings continued daily killing thousands of civilians...women and children.

Another thing Americans never consider is why did we need to invade and occupy Japan’s home islands? Why? They were done. Their navy and air forces destroyed. Accept their surrender and go home. Unfortunately the US government was an imperialist force then, as it is today.

 

[Unkotare]

The war was over before he took charge from Stalin’s Stooge. Then he went an mass murdered thousands of defenseless Japanese women and children, yet you find this admirable.

Damn right!

Of course all you know about World War II came only from your indoctrination and maybe the word of one or two people who went into hiding to escape their duty to America.

Truman's ultimate nipping of the Nips saved countless thousands of American lives. Yes, Japan would have ultimately surrendered but only after countless Americans died without reason.

There were going to be horrendous death tolls either way.

Of course you would have far much more preferred that they be AMERICAN dead rather than Japs.
Would you have felt that way had a parent been among those "murdered" as you choose to style it? Or, wait, would you even be here? Yeah, given that possibility....maybe it would have been better your way.

Think that through before replying. If you are allowed to....or if you are capable.

I’m not the one who believes the lying State. You are. Our criminal government didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only fools and pussies think Truman right, in mass murdering defenseless women and children. Men of honor never murder women and children. Cowards do.

Do you condemn the firebombing of Tokyo that killed many more than the atom bomb?

Absolutely. I also condemn the terrible fire bombings of German civilians. The Dresden fire bombing was one of the worst. There were no military installations there. It was a war crime that Churchill should have been hung for.

The USA has a long history of using total war, mass murdering defenseless civilians, though most Americans are uninformed of our criminal government’s atrocities. It started with Dishonest Abe, who committed treason by murdering Americans. He too should have been hung as a war criminal.

You might point out to the Asian poster in this thread that he is a hypocrite. He condemns Truman’s actions, but loves Dishonest Abe’s. Dumb. Really dumb.

i agree Dresden was wrong. But for the atom bomb how many would have died if it had not been used? At the time American soldiers were training for the big one. Invasion of Japan. That would be very bloody. And how would the American people react if they discovered the war could have been ended fast and was not? political careers would have ended.

This post has been addressed and discredited already. Why repeat the exact same thing?

 

[Unkotare]

Inescapable fact:
...

Empty speculation.

 

[Unkotare]

... a father or grandfather would have been killed along with several hundred thousand other Americans ...

Speculation.