At this point, we know the differences are irreconcilable between libs and conservatives

[AntonToo]

Yeah, I don't think any of that would accessible to the general public. Russia and Ukraine both are pretty secretive about their finances. I'm still looking. I found one site, but it wanted me to pay for information. I wasn't sure I could get what I was looking for, so I didn't bother.

So then the question is, where the hell did you pick up that idea in the first place? Who's pumping you full of this?

 

[AntonToo]

I based my statement about Putin on who he was before the collapse of the Soviet Union. After the collapse he embraced democratic government. If he did otherwise, there would have been no place for him in the new Russian government.

Nope, Putin certainly did not "embrace democratic government". He embraced authroritarianism with a pretense to democracy.

People putting their vote in IS NOT A DEMOCRACY MAKE.

There are no competetive elections in Russia,
no serious political opposition,
no true separation of power and Judicial independance
no peaceful transfer of power,
no true choices being made in the market of ideas.

This power hungry thug sustains his regime by subjugating media and squashing his political opposition with tactics which include jailings and assasinations.

Embraced democratic governmet? What a joke.

 

[para bellum]

1. What agreement? NATO has always had open door policy.

1991 reunification of Germany. We promised not "one inch past the Elbe".

Clinton reneged on the agreement, and NATO added 14 countries from central and eastern Europe.

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

 

[BS Filter]

Putin invades Ukraine....rightwingers respond by blaming United States government.

What the fuck is wrong with you idiots? Did Putin's trolls get into all of your facebook feeds? What the hell is going on?

Wrong. We blame Biden. Try again.

 

[BS Filter]

We have a wider range of Clutching Pearls and Wailing Towels on Sale now than ever before for the pain you must be feeling now after all that fact free gibberish you typed there.

But that is the beauty of the Neo GOP wordsmiths. You believe he is a failed president don't you?

Only an indoctrinated fool would think Biden is running on all cylinders.

 

[AntonToo]

1991 reunification of Germany. We promised not "one inch past the Elbe".

Clinton reneged on the agreement, and NATO added 14 countries from central and eastern Europe.

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

So no, there was no agreement actually signed. There were just promisses between administrations long gone.

1994 Agreement however was signed and subsequently breached by Russian invasions.

 

[AntonToo]

Wrong. We blame Biden. Try again.

Biden heads the Executive of the United States government.

That is who you are blaming for Putin's invasion, instead of blaming Putin.

It's partisan silliness at it's worst.

 

[Turtlesoup]

After just a little over one year we are living the reality of a completely failed president and his party. Whatever could go wrong has gone wrong and continues to go worse and there is no sign of it letting up. Still, while one side is saying - See? Just look around and listen to our president try and talk!, the other side is finding ways to defend this shit show. If the media was even a little bit honest, some of these people would realize how bad it is, but I think most would still cling to some alternate lib reality any way they could.

Eloi and the Liberal parasitic Morlocks

 

[BS Filter]

Biden heads the Executive of the United States government.

That is who you are blaming for Putin's invasion, instead of blaming Putin.

It's partisan silliness at it's worst.

Still, Biden isn't the government. He's not a dictator. Talk about partisan silliness....Trump is Putin's buddy is very partisan silliness. Putin has been preparing for this invasion since the day Biden was sworn in.

 

[AntonToo]

Still, Biden isn't the government. He's not a dictator. Talk about partisan silliness....Trump is Putin's buddy is very partisan silliness.

American foreign policy is conducted primarily by Executive branch.

You didn't know that?

 

[BS Filter]

American foreign policy is conducted primarily by Executive branch.

You didn't know that?

Yes, I knew that. The Executive Branch isn't "The Government". Didn't you know that? Now apply your same standard when a Republican is the President.

 

[Donald H]

I will agree it is an unreal war because it's hard to see what Russia will gain from this. Putin is concerned about the NATO threat yet invading the Ukraine has consolidated opinions and views in NATO countries which certainly will lead to a military expansion. He sold the invasion to the Federal Assembly and the Duma as a rescue mission to free Russian being attacked in Ukraine and stop NATO expansion. He did not sell this invasion as a war but a military action to save Russians. Russians are not going to be expecting thousands of deaths, a consolidated NATO, a conquered nation with the 2nd largest army in the region to deal with plus a lot financial problems due to sanctions.

I'm not quite sure I can agree with your prognosis but in any case I'm not going to get into fighting andy armchair wars with any of you. Fwiw, I think you're buying into a little too much propaganda.

I think you are right. Putin is going to try to end this thing quickly. If Zelensky doesn't throw in the towel in the current talks,

I wonder if Zelensky is making any of the decisions now? But I don't think any possible settlement will be seen as throwing in the towel by either side. If peace talks succeed, if will need to be politically spun as a victory for both sides.

Russia will hit the country hard and it that fails, Zelenksky might be able to negotiate a deal where Russia keeps the western region and he makes a guarantee about joining NATO. Putin would go home a victor accomplishing what he promised.

If the losses Russia has suffered are anywhere near true, I would say that Putin will take it all and then demilitarize the Ukraine. Contrary to US/Nato propaganda, the Ukraine recently had the majority of Ukrainians favouring Russia. The US won't allow a fair election and it's impossible anyway with Russia owning the Crimea and the two Donbass regions declared as free states.
But sadly, neither a solution that would be suitable for the US/Nato or Russia seems possible.

Much depends on Putin's resolve and the Russian people's resolve?

To keep fighting till they subdue the country makes no sense for Russia. They end up with a bombed out country, thousands of armed troops wandering the countryside killing Russians as they have been doing for years

Perhaps, but don't discount the pro-Russian sentiments of a great number of Ukrainians and the fact that it appears they're being used as cannon fodder for US gain.

and to top it off, Ukraine was no real threat to Russia.

It wasn't but it has become a threat to Russia under US/Nato directions. A detailed explanation is perhaps needed but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[AntonToo]

Yes, I knew that. The Executive Branch isn't "The Government". Didn't you know that? Now apply your same standard when a Republican is the President.

I always make sure my standards and arguments are consistent. Do you?

 

[para bellum]

So no, there was no agreement actually signed. There were just promisses between administrations long gone.

Rationalize it however you like. There are a number of contemporaneous memos and transcripts from the highest levels, in multiple countries, that describe the assurances given. What we showed Russia is that we can't be trusted.

I imagine if China started entering into security agreements with our neighbors, and basing right on our borders, we would be pretty uptight about it.

1994 Agreement however was signed and subsequently breached by Russian invasions.

So why didn't Obama do anything in 2014?

Putin has been laughing his ass off for the last 5 years as you dems fell all over yourselves with your Trump-Russia hoax. No one has done more to empower Putin than democrats.

Honestly, If you think Putin and Xi (and Iran and North Korea) are not going to take advantage of a helpless US President, you are naive. This is just the opening shot.

 

[AntonToo]

Putin has been laughing his ass off for the last 5 years as you dems fell all over yourselves with your Trump-Russia hoax. No one has done more to empower Putin than democrats.

? umm dummy, Trump was the president for 4 of those 5 years.

Putin and Russia are not in for laughs after his gross miscalculation in Ukraine, they are in for a very long, cold recession.

 

[BS Filter]

I always make sure my standards and arguments are consistent. Do you?

No, you dont.

 

[Dragonlady]

After just a little over one year we are living the reality of a completely failed president and his party. Whatever could go wrong has gone wrong and continues to go worse and there is no sign of it letting up. Still, while one side is saying - See? Just look around and listen to our president try and talk!, the other side is finding ways to defend this shit show. If the media was even a little bit honest, some of these people would realize how bad it is, but I think most would still cling to some alternate lib reality any way they could.

You're not living in reality at all. You're parroting the lies of Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump and the Republican Party.

Just like Donald Trump went too far for freedom loving Americans when he tried to overturn the will of the nation's voters on January 6th, and steal the Presidential elections away from the legal winner, Joe Biden, on January 6th, 2021, Vladimir Putin has gone too far in trying to overthrow the legally elected government of its neighbour, the Ukraine.

Even worse, the Russians are losing the war, just like Donald Trump lost the election. Two facts you conveniently ignore.

Look how Dumb Donald is trying to jump on the Zelensky bandwagon. When Trump was in power, he withheld weapons from President Zelensky and urged him repeatedly to settle with Putin. A week ago he was praising Putin's invasion as a "genius move". Now Trump is cheering for Zelensky, even though he was completely prepared to throw him Zelensky under the bus last week when Putin invaded.

 

[para bellum]

? umm dummy, Trump was the president for 4 of those 5 years.

Yes, and he laughed his ass off as democrats used a ridiculous conspiracy theory to weaken a US President.

Putin and Russia are not in for laughs after his gross miscalculation in Ukraine, they are in for a very long, cold recession.

He is flush with Petrobucks thanks to Biden, and China and India have already signaled (or stated outright) that they won't honor the sanctions. Biden has actually managed to move India back in Russia's direction, that's pretty remarkable. Our Asian allies are justifiably worried, and themselves weighing the necessity of softening towards China.

We have no interest in Ukraine. There are no good guys in that place. It's one set of corrupt oligarchs or another. We dumped $1.5 Billion+ into the energy sector in Ukraine so people like Biden and Kerry and various other dems and their family members can get kickbacks from the oligarchs they installed in power.

The Obama administration's preferred tool of foreign policy was the color revolution, they ran them through the State Dept., in Ukraine and all over the world. The organizers were trained right here in the US.

They ran the exact same playbook in the US against Trump. That's why Putin controlled Trump, Trump was an autocrat/dictator, the daily media barrage of Trump's "crimes" and upcoming "indictments", the BLM/Antifa riots in every city- it's all part of the script. Those are requirements of a color revolution, as per the Norm Eisen "Democracy Playbook".

The dems were going to call it the "purple revolution", but Trump got wind of it, and everyone in the White House wore purple on the day Pelosi was going to give it the name, lol.

 

[bendog]

Putin invades Ukraine....rightwingers respond by blaming United States government.

What the fuck is wrong with you idiots? Did Putin's trolls get into all of your facebook feeds? What the hell is going on?

I'm not sure what the OP was about other than Biden Bad Trump blago. lol

 

[para bellum]

The reason Putin and Xi and Kim Jong Un and Khamenei didn't challenge Trump was because they couldn't predict his reaction.

Khamenei tried, and Trump killed his most popular general. We killed more than 100 Russian forces in Syria when they attacked a Kurdish base- Putin did nothing. When Trump sent cruise missiles from the Med, the Russians moved their ships and aircraft out of harms way.

They don't have Trump to deal with now, of course they are going to take advantage of the situation. They aren't even interested in meeting with Biden, he is completely sidelined.