Ashkenazi DNA ??

[Quasar44]

Very fascinating topic as I technically am from this gene pool
From all the studies and history, this is what I think:
It’s clearly a mix dna of European and Middle Eastern

The male side - the research shows very Middle Eastern
The Female side they can tell from the mitochondria. During the early Roman republic you have many thousands of wornen coverts to Judaism . Many of the female origins are Italian !!!

Now in USA : you have 60 percent intermarriage , so this topic becomes very mute!!

I think I am accurate and I hope this topic stays stable

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Good luck with the topic staying stable. Anything involving Jews here acts as an invitation to the antisemites to have a field day.

Nothing brings together the mainstream left and the extremist portion of the right in an orgy of hatred quite like Jews.

 

[Picaro]

Only the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox still care about 'racial purity'; most Jews quit caring about 2,000 years ago, when the Temple shakedown in Jerusalem ended. Some day somebody will post the 200 odd pages of those laws, and still not get them all in there. We could list the categories, though. If you think the Nazi stuff is nuts, you will find the Jewish ones even more entertaining.

 

[fncceo]

so this topic becomes very mute!!

I believe you mean 'moot'.

If you're talking about the subject, it definitely, isn't 'mute'.

 

[rylah]

Very fascinating topic as I technically am from this gene pool
From all the studies and history, this is what I think:
It’s clearly a mix dna of European and Middle Eastern

The male side - the research shows very Middle Eastern
The Female side they can tell from the mitochondria. During the early Roman republic you have many thousands of wornen coverts to Judaism . Many of the female origins are Italian !!!

Now in USA : you have 60 percent intermarriage , so this topic becomes very mute!!

I think I am accurate and I hope this topic stays stable

It's an interesting topic,
but mixing politics and DNA is...nothing good ever comes from this, because people tend to address it as some sort of "blood purity test" instead of a tool in historic research.

From what I've studied:
1. Diaspora communities were usually, (Jerba aside), established around core 4-5 families,
of Jewish male refugees and local converted women. Each community can be traced to 4-5 female progenitors. Imagine Israeli slaves, gladiators winning their freedom and establishing networks of communication to build community centers.

2. When DNA test write 'European', in many cases they put Ashkenazi communities under that category without distinction, because that's where Ashkenazi communities are most concentrated physically, not as an indication of their origin. So goes with categories as "Middle Eastern", inside that category are Mizrahi Jews who are concentrated physically there, but that is usually not specified.

3. The local population saw a significant flow of early European DNA prior to the Israelite era, the Hebrews, or Canaanites as they're usually identified and lumped together, were always a mixture, the whole Levant region. Actually for a modern Levantine to have specifically one side, east or west, means late arrival of the community.

4. DNA is not static, certain genes express more strongly in certain climatic environment,
food etc. Even skin pigmentation can change in matters of a single generation. Less evident now, but also attested in Gmarah, is that in pre-exile time, pronunciation of the language, certain throaty letters, is as well function of environment.

5. DNA databases are using categories based on location rather than nations, or ethnicity.
It is a good tool for historic research of a movement of a community, not its origin.
As well most of their categories are based on modern population in a location,
real ancient DNA is relatively scarce for any significant database.

I.e. they go to Saudi Arabia, sift out the most strongly expressed sequences,
and decide these are 'the Arabs'. These categories are based on modern gene pool.
And if the Arabs of old had a different DNA, it would be tossed out as foreign - Nebuhadnezzar did a groat job erasing entire nations moving them places.

6. In order to make a Hebrew database, we have to open the graves of our ancestors, G-d forbid, and we won't do that ever. The only cases this is done is to transfer remains to Israel, not for research. Nobody will let anyone touch the Cave of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs or the mount of Olives.

7. All that said, the main conclusion is that such categories in the modern study help indicate relationships between modern communities based on their current location, and movement rather than origin - and the most extensive researches I've seen show clear clusters between both Ashkenazi and Mizrahi communities with Lebanese Christians and Druze, and the Arab population in the cluster of today's Saudi Arabia, Syrian Muslims and Bedouins.

You would do better researching from which community did Your core family came,
and I don't mean going millenias back, only as far back as emancipation, 17th-18 century Haskalah, and study those communities closer, because at that time most of them they still had family trees and other communal historic accounts (genizah), and were typically clustered in somewhat similarity to the communities in Babylon, i.e. for lack of better term - Judean aristocracy and royalty, like once used to Reish Galutah. Probably as much a half of those communities trace their core back to the family of Rashi and his grandsons. Around this axis one can get a more detailed information and personally accurate about the history of the family.

There were, and still are many Rabbinic courts that keep the names of the communities based on their specific location in the diaspora, these are also the families who still keep family trees, and have much information and records about their community. As well I'd suggest looking into the Hebrew library, I don't remember the name of the books now, but there were several such extended researches and documented in several writings. As well as the archive of Beit Hatfutzot ('house of diasporas') in Israel.

On an ending note - if anyone wants to know his tribal affiliation along these lines,
one can rely on a commonly accepted distinction that was made in Hebrew literature on this subject, of course not as a rule personally, but along the historic lines of the communities - the northern diaspora are the tribe of Binyamin, the southern diaspora are the tribe of Yehudah.

 

[Mindful]

Good luck with the topic staying stable. Anything involving Jews here acts as an invitation to the antisemites to have a field day.

Nothing brings together the mainstream left and the extremist portion of the right in an orgy of hatred quite like Jews.

Especially when you get into genetics and mitochondria. From people who aren’t even biologists.

It’s like a walk in the candy store for them.

What’s next? Eugenics? Oh, that’s been done already.

 

[Picaro]

Old genealogies past a certain dates are useless as well; those from the post-exilic eras are known to have been faked in a lot of 'family trees', and the false rubric of excluding Jewish men who married 'foreign' wives was used as an excuse to exclude countless families from 'the good lineages'. See Ezra for the beginnings of that, and Jerusalem in the Time Of Jesus for what some 400+ years of developing every more ridiculous 'racial purity' laws can do to divide up and stagnate a once dynamic and progressive culture into irrelevance.

 

[Picaro]

Good luck with the topic staying stable. Anything involving Jews here acts as an invitation to the antisemites to have a field day.

Nothing brings together the mainstream left and the extremist portion of the right in an orgy of hatred quite like Jews.

Especially when you get into genetics and mitochondria. From people who aren’t even biologists.

It’s like a walk in the candy store for them.

What’s next? Eugenics? Oh, that’s been done already.

I think most of those old arguments are dead now; most people agree environment and culture play by far the largest role, though P.Rushton's work can provide some limited insights into some behaviors.

What good is having half a population of 300 million with IQ's of 140 or more when there isn't nearly enough challenging work for even a few hundred of those? The vast majority of jobs created even in our alegedly 'high tech world' actually require less intelligence than most jobs in the 1950's did. We pay them to play chess all day or something?

 

[MartyNYC]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

 

[fncceo]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Jews aren't a race ...

... we're a Marathon.

 

[rylah]

Old genealogies past a certain dates are useless as well; those from the post-exilic eras are known to have been faked in a lot of 'family trees', and the false rubric of excluding Jewish men who married 'foreign' wives was used as an excuse to exclude countless families from 'the good lineages'. See Ezra for the beginnings of that, and Jerusalem in the Time Of Jesus for what some 400+ years of developing every more ridiculous 'racial purity' laws can do to divide up and stagnate a once dynamic and progressive culture into irrelevance.

What "racial purity" laws??!

When Abraham A"H established an nation with an Egyptian princess?
Or when the Judean royalty is based on a Moabite progenitor?
Maybe King Solomon A"H and his 1000 wives?

During Ezra it were the priestly families that were forced to abandon their wives,
not to be excluded from anything, but rather to to be included in the service.
If they married Israeli widows or divorcees, they'd be forced the same.

Are you insane or just making stuff up as you go?

 

[Mindful]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Jews aren't a race ...

... we're a Marathon.

Why do they even need to discuss it?

 

[fncceo]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Jews aren't a race ...

... we're a Marathon.

Why do they even need to discuss it?

People are always both fascinated with and jealous of their social and intellectual betters.

 

[Mindful]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Jews aren't a race ...

... we're a Marathon.

Why do they even need to discuss it?

People are always both fascinated with and jealous of their social and intellectual betters.

 

[fncceo]

Are you insane or just making stuff up as you go?

I suspect substantial quantities of each.

 

[Picaro]

Old genealogies past a certain dates are useless as well; those from the post-exilic eras are known to have been faked in a lot of 'family trees', and the false rubric of excluding Jewish men who married 'foreign' wives was used as an excuse to exclude countless families from 'the good lineages'. See Ezra for the beginnings of that, and Jerusalem in the Time Of Jesus for what some 400+ years of developing every more ridiculous 'racial purity' laws can do to divide up and stagnate a once dynamic and progressive culture into irrelevance.

What "racial purity" laws??!

When Abraham A"H established an nation with an Egyptian princess?
Or when the Judean royalty is based on a Moabite progenitor?
Maybe King Solomon A"H and his 1000 wives?

During Ezra it were the priestly families that were forced to abandon their wives,
not to be excluded from anything, but rather to to be included in the service.
If they married Israeli widows or divorcees, they'd be forced the same.

Are you insane or just making stuff up as you go?

lol it's cute when you try and deny stuff almost everybody knows already. The fact is most Jews dumped the racist idiocy some 2,000 years ago and went with the Evul Xian reformers eventually, as per the prophecy 'to go be a light unto the world' of the old Covenants. The racist cultists were left to snivel and whine over their losses of money, status in their own tribes, and influence ever since, ended up as house pets for Arabs for 1,100 years.

 

[Picaro]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Jews aren't a race ...

... we're a Marathon.

Why do they even need to discuss it?

Same reason you do; because somebody brought it up, and some Jewish bigots sniveled about it.

 

[Picaro]

Jews have among the longest histories—perhaps the longest history—as a distinct people with a continuous identity, as expressed by religion, language, culture, and genealogy.

Mostly true. They went into decline around the the time of the Return though, didn't do much until the 18th century, finally figuring out they weren't so 'special' after all, and decided to abandon the self-isolating racism and bigotry. Well, many did, anyway. Others are still pissed off about being barred from some country clubs and not being able to hang out with drunk Episcopalians for some reason nobody can fathom. So much for the stereotypes re intelligence; I worked a couple of summer at one of those during college and never saw the attraction of hanging out with them., but I run across this obsession with them in several modern biographies of Jewish New Yorkers and early Hollywood Jews. I also understand German Jews look down on eastern European Jews, which is hilarious.

 

[Coyote]

Very fascinating topic as I technically am from this gene pool
From all the studies and history, this is what I think:
It’s clearly a mix dna of European and Middle Eastern

The male side - the research shows very Middle Eastern
The Female side they can tell from the mitochondria. During the early Roman republic you have many thousands of wornen coverts to Judaism . Many of the female origins are Italian !!!

Now in USA : you have 60 percent intermarriage , so this topic becomes very mute!!

I think I am accurate and I hope this topic stays stable

It's an interesting topic,
but mixing politics and DNA is...nothing good ever comes from this, because people tend to address it as some sort of "blood purity test" instead of a tool in historic research.

From what I've studied:
1. Diaspora communities were usually, (Jerba aside), established around core 4-5 families,
of Jewish male refugees and local converted women. Each community can be traced to 4-5 female progenitors. Imagine Israeli slaves, gladiators winning their freedom and establishing networks of communication to build community centers.

2. When DNA test write 'European', in many cases they put Ashkenazi communities under that category without distinction, because that's where Ashkenazi communities are most concentrated physically, not as an indication of their origin. So goes with categories as "Middle Eastern", inside that category are Mizrahi Jews who are concentrated physically there, but that is usually not specified.

3. The local population saw a significant flow of early European DNA prior to the Israelite era, the Hebrews, or Canaanites as they're usually identified and lumped together, were always a mixture, the whole Levant region. Actually for a modern Levantine to have specifically one side, east or west, means late arrival of the community.

4. DNA is not static, certain genes express more strongly in certain climatic environment,
food etc. Even skin pigmentation can change in matters of a single generation. Less evident now, but also attested in Gmarah, is that in pre-exile time, pronunciation of the language, certain throaty letters, is as well function of environment.

5. DNA databases are using categories based on location rather than nations, or ethnicity.
It is a good tool for historic research of a movement of a community, not its origin.
As well most of their categories are based on modern population in a location,
real ancient DNA is relatively scarce for any significant database.

I.e. they go to Saudi Arabia, sift out the most strongly expressed sequences,
and decide these are 'the Arabs'. These categories are based on modern gene pool.
And if the Arabs of old had a different DNA, it would be tossed out as foreign - Nebuhadnezzar did a groat job erasing entire nations moving them places.

6. In order to make a Hebrew database, we have to open the graves of our ancestors, G-d forbid, and we won't do that ever. The only cases this is done is to transfer remains to Israel, not for research. Nobody will let anyone touch the Cave of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs or the mount of Olives.

7. All that said, the main conclusion is that such categories in the modern study help indicate relationships between modern communities based on their current location, and movement rather than origin - and the most extensive researches I've seen show clear clusters between both Ashkenazi and Mizrahi communities with Lebanese Christians and Druze, and the Arab population in the cluster of today's Saudi Arabia, Syrian Muslims and Bedouins.

You would do better researching from which community did Your core family came,
and I don't mean going millenias back, only as far back as emancipation, 17th-18 century Haskalah, and study those communities closer, because at that time most of them they still had family trees and other communal historic accounts (genizah), and were typically clustered in somewhat similarity to the communities in Babylon, i.e. for lack of better term - Judean aristocracy and royalty, like once used to Reish Galutah. Probably as much a half of those communities trace their core back to the family of Rashi and his grandsons. Around this axis one can get a more detailed information and personally accurate about the history of the family.

There were, and still are many Rabbinic courts that keep the names of the communities based on their specific location in the diaspora, these are also the families who still keep family trees, and have much information and records about their community. As well I'd suggest looking into the Hebrew library, I don't remember the name of the books now, but there were several such extended researches and documented in several writings. As well as the archive of Beit Hatfutzot ('house of diasporas') in Israel.

On an ending note - if anyone wants to know his tribal affiliation along these lines,
one can rely on a commonly accepted distinction that was made in Hebrew literature on this subject, of course not as a rule personally, but along the historic lines of the communities - the northern diaspora are the tribe of Binyamin, the southern diaspora are the tribe of Yehudah.

Wish we still had the “informative” button, thank you for an in-depth explanation.

 

[Shusha]

...so this topic becomes very mute!!

This topic should be MUTE.