Are there any economic beneffits from global corporations ?

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Agriculture is protected. I find that a valid point because food autosuficiency is a matter of national security.

now thats really stupid since the list of rare earth metals and 1000's of other items needed for national security are generally not protected. If they were world trade would decline 50% over night and we'd have another liberal Smoot Hawley depression. To a liberal its all simple magic: you protect your industry, save jobs, and don't think about driving prices up or that other countries will do they same thing.

See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance!! This liberal would have us grow our own bananas in greenhouses instead of getting them virtually for nothing from SA.

 

[CultureCitizen]

2) If the Yuan is undervalued that means lower prices and more wealth for us

Maybe you haven't noticed Ed but the US economy isn't exactly booming. The chinese economy is. The worse thing is that such things happen and US citizens are deluded into thinking China is a free trade nation when it is actually a case of state capitalism with protectionist policies.
You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Maybe you haven't noticed Ed but the US economy isn't exactly booming. The chinese economy is.

yes because they are more capitalist than we are. They devote 5% to entitlements while we devote 30%. They survive by working and saving. We surivie by collecting!!! Their system keeps them focused. And this is to say nothing of our liberal taxes, deficits unions, and attack on and destruction of schools and families.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

100% stupid and liberal as always!! the banana gets here through a global corporation!!!

 

[CultureCitizen]

You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

100% stupid and liberal as always!! the banana gets here through a global corporation!!!

So , banana trade was null before the existance of global corporations dimwit ?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

100% stupid and liberal as always!! the banana gets here through a global corporation!!!

So , banana trade was null before the existance of global corporations dimwit ?

Dear how do yo

You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

100% stupid and liberal as always!! the banana gets here through a global corporation!!!

So , banana trade was null before the existance of global corporations dimwit ?

Dear,how did they get a banana here if not with a global corporation. Feel like a liberal yet??

 

[Andylusion]

When Venezuela tried to devalue their currency intentionally, they had a massive black market currency exchange. Why? Because the real market value of the Bolivar was difference from the government rates.

The government can't just say "This is how much our currency is worth", because the market will react accordingly, and exchange it for the real market rate.

China has its own black market (see link) . It can do what it does because it is a police state and it is sitting on top of 4 Trillion of USD reserves, and on top of that the trade balance with the US is 5 to 1. So China and Venezuela have very different economical situations.

http://www.economist.com/node/10180842

And by your own posting :
"Last year, the IMF said the yuan was “moderately” undervalued—IMF lingo for 5% to 10% undervalued."
That is after a significant valuation over the past 10 years. That means that during the last 20 or 30 years the yuan was certainly undervaluated.
The article doesn't claim it wasn't undervaluated in the past it just claims it is probably no longer undervaluated as of may 2014. And I must point out the IMF still thinks it is undervaluated.

Here's another tip: In order to engage in intelligent discussion, make sure you actually read the articles you post.

You just posted a link to an article..... that *I* posted. I posted that article. You apparently didn't read it when I posted it, and obviously didn't read it when YOU posted it.

I know this, because I read it when I posted the prior message, which is why I used to it support my claims, because the article does support my claims, and doesn't support yours.

Or I would not have posted it.

No, China could not do that even in a police state. The black market does not respect boundaries in China or Venezuela. Most of the black market trading of Bolivar for Dollars, happens in Columbia, outside of Venezuela.

If there was a massive discrepancy in the Yuan value compared to the dollar, then we should see signs of massive trading outside of China, as well as in.

We don't.

MY article, that YOU posted again, does not suggest there is any devaluing of the Yuan. Instead the article talks about the controls on capital flows, and subsidized goods.

IF YOU HAD READ THE ARTICLE.....

Subsidized oil, at a huge cost to tax payers, was being purchased, and then resold at the market price outside China. Yeah, what a great system that is.

Or subsidized export products, sold to subsidiaries in free-trade countries like Singapore, being resold at market price from the outside country. The company in China gets the subsidy, and then the full price. Double dipping.

Screwing the tax payers over and over, to benefit the wealthy. That's what your subsidies do.

I am getting the feeling that you really don't know anything about this topic, and don't really care to. How is it that you post a link to an article that directly contradicts your statements about the article..... even after I already posted the exact same article?

 

[Andylusion]

When Venezuela tried to devalue their currency intentionally, they had a massive black market currency exchange. Why? Because the real market value of the Bolivar was difference from the government rates.

The government can't just say "This is how much our currency is worth", because the market will react accordingly, and exchange it for the real market rate.

China has its own black market (see link) . It can do what it does because it is a police state and it is sitting on top of 4 Trillion of USD reserves, and on top of that the trade balance with the US is 5 to 1. So China and Venezuela have very different economical situations.

http://www.economist.com/node/10180842

And by your own posting :
"Last year, the IMF said the yuan was “moderately” undervalued—IMF lingo for 5% to 10% undervalued."
That is after a significant valuation over the past 10 years. That means that during the last 20 or 30 years the yuan was certainly undervaluated.
The article doesn't claim it wasn't undervaluated in the past it just claims it is probably no longer undervaluated as of may 2014. And I must point out the IMF still thinks it is undervaluated.

Oh and yes, I am well aware that the IMF claims the Yuan is undervalued. Yes I also know that the other article says it was undervalued in the past.

Again..... IF it was...... then we should see a massive black market for Yuan trading at a different exchange rate than the governmental rate.

We don't. We never have.

There is no evidence that I can find, suggesting the Yuan was undervalued. None.

Here's where the problem is..... We have foreign currency exchange markets.

Do you understand? Markets that exist outside China, and trade in all currencies, including Yuan and USD.

If I log into say.....

XE.com - USD CNY Chart

Currency exchange market. They don't care what China's official policy is. This is an open market. I can buy Yuan from someone, and there is nothing China can do... or the US for that matter, can do, to stop me. If I want to buy 5 yuan, for $1.... no one could stop me from doing that. And if I wanted to buy 10 Yuan for $1, as long as someone was willing to make that trade, I could do that.

Neither government controls this, anymore than if I come to your home, and offer you money for money.

Now if you look at that graph, the Yuan to Dollar ratio isn't a steady flat line. It's not. It goes up... it goes down... it goes up... it goes down.

Just like any other free market system. China would LOVE to dictate what it is.... but they can't. That's the point.

And unsurprisingly the going market rate for Yuan to Dollars, is pretty close to what the official rate is... because the official rate is close to what the real value of the Yuan is.

The IMF..... is wrong. If they were right..... we should see it on the open markets. We should see it on the black markets.

Another example..... Argentina.

How to use Argentina s black market money exchange

Black market for Argentina Peso. It is so wide spread that local papers publish the unofficial black market exchange rates.

Again.... if China was doing this....> WE WOULD SEE IT <

It's just not true. Sorry.

 

[Andylusion]

2) If the Yuan is undervalued that means lower prices and more wealth for us

Maybe you haven't noticed Ed but the US economy isn't exactly booming. The chinese economy is. The worse thing is that such things happen and US citizens are deluded into thinking China is a free trade nation when it is actually a case of state capitalism with protectionist policies.
You can still have your bananas without having global corporations, even a farmer from south america knows that.

Again, the sun came up.... Obama is president.... therefore Obama caused the sun to come up.

Correlation is not causation.

The fact the US economy is not booming, and the Chinese economy is, does not mean it's because of a trade imbalance.

It could be that China is encouraging and supporting business, and free-market capitalist principals that have been universally found to generate economic growth every single time they are tried....

... whereas the US is enacting minimum wage laws, regulations and controls, putting socialized health care mandates, and anti-business laws, that have harmed the economy, and failed every single time they are tried.

Maybe that has more to do with it, than trade.

As I said before, the problem harming the company I'm at, is labor law that drive up costs, not international trade. International trade is the ONLY reason we are still in business at all.

 

[CultureCitizen]

When Venezuela tried to devalue their currency intentionally, they had a massive black market currency exchange. Why? Because the real market value of the Bolivar was difference from the government rates.

The government can't just say "This is how much our currency is worth", because the market will react accordingly, and exchange it for the real market rate.

China has its own black market (see link) . It can do what it does because it is a police state and it is sitting on top of 4 Trillion of USD reserves, and on top of that the trade balance with the US is 5 to 1. So China and Venezuela have very different economical situations.

http://www.economist.com/node/10180842

And by your own posting :
"Last year, the IMF said the yuan was “moderately” undervalued—IMF lingo for 5% to 10% undervalued."
That is after a significant valuation over the past 10 years. That means that during the last 20 or 30 years the yuan was certainly undervaluated.
The article doesn't claim it wasn't undervaluated in the past it just claims it is probably no longer undervaluated as of may 2014. And I must point out the IMF still thinks it is undervaluated.

Here's another tip: In order to engage in intelligent discussion, make sure you actually read the articles you post.

You just posted a link to an article..... that *I* posted. I posted that article. You apparently didn't read it when I posted it, and obviously didn't read it when YOU posted it.

I know this, because I read it when I posted the prior message, which is why I used to it support my claims, because the article does support my claims, and doesn't support yours.

Or I would not have posted it.

No, China could not do that even in a police state. The black market does not respect boundaries in China or Venezuela. Most of the black market trading of Bolivar for Dollars, happens in Columbia, outside of Venezuela.

If there was a massive discrepancy in the Yuan value compared to the dollar, then we should see signs of massive trading outside of China, as well as in.

We don't.

MY article, that YOU posted again, does not suggest there is any devaluing of the Yuan. Instead the article talks about the controls on capital flows, and subsidized goods.

IF YOU HAD READ THE ARTICLE.....

Subsidized oil, at a huge cost to tax payers, was being purchased, and then resold at the market price outside China. Yeah, what a great system that is.

Or subsidized export products, sold to subsidiaries in free-trade countries like Singapore, being resold at market price from the outside country. The company in China gets the subsidy, and then the full price. Double dipping.

Screwing the tax payers over and over, to benefit the wealthy. That's what your subsidies do.

I am getting the feeling that you really don't know anything about this topic, and don't really care to. How is it that you post a link to an article that directly contradicts your statements about the article..... even after I already posted the exact same article?

You asume too much.
Yes I read and posted a fragment of your own article just to point out that the IMF still thinks

If I log into say.....

XE.com - USD CNY Chart

Currency exchange market. They don't care what China's official policy is. This is an open market. I can buy Yuan from someone, and there is nothing China can do... or the US for that matter, can do, to stop me. If I want to buy 5 yuan, for $1.... no one could stop me from doing that. And if I wanted to buy 10 Yuan for $1, as long as someone was willing to make that trade, I could do that.

what??? So a central bank can't increase the money supply of its own currency? How naive.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

what??? So a central bank can't increase the money supply of its own currency? How naive.

dear, real economic growth comes from Republican new inventions not new liberal money! if currency manipulation mattered every country would do it and have 50% GDP growth per year.

 

[Andylusion]

When Venezuela tried to devalue their currency intentionally, they had a massive black market currency exchange. Why? Because the real market value of the Bolivar was difference from the government rates.

The government can't just say "This is how much our currency is worth", because the market will react accordingly, and exchange it for the real market rate.

China has its own black market (see link) . It can do what it does because it is a police state and it is sitting on top of 4 Trillion of USD reserves, and on top of that the trade balance with the US is 5 to 1. So China and Venezuela have very different economical situations.

http://www.economist.com/node/10180842

And by your own posting :
"Last year, the IMF said the yuan was “moderately” undervalued—IMF lingo for 5% to 10% undervalued."
That is after a significant valuation over the past 10 years. That means that during the last 20 or 30 years the yuan was certainly undervaluated.
The article doesn't claim it wasn't undervaluated in the past it just claims it is probably no longer undervaluated as of may 2014. And I must point out the IMF still thinks it is undervaluated.

Here's another tip: In order to engage in intelligent discussion, make sure you actually read the articles you post.

You just posted a link to an article..... that *I* posted. I posted that article. You apparently didn't read it when I posted it, and obviously didn't read it when YOU posted it.

I know this, because I read it when I posted the prior message, which is why I used to it support my claims, because the article does support my claims, and doesn't support yours.

Or I would not have posted it.

No, China could not do that even in a police state. The black market does not respect boundaries in China or Venezuela. Most of the black market trading of Bolivar for Dollars, happens in Columbia, outside of Venezuela.

If there was a massive discrepancy in the Yuan value compared to the dollar, then we should see signs of massive trading outside of China, as well as in.

We don't.

MY article, that YOU posted again, does not suggest there is any devaluing of the Yuan. Instead the article talks about the controls on capital flows, and subsidized goods.

IF YOU HAD READ THE ARTICLE.....

Subsidized oil, at a huge cost to tax payers, was being purchased, and then resold at the market price outside China. Yeah, what a great system that is.

Or subsidized export products, sold to subsidiaries in free-trade countries like Singapore, being resold at market price from the outside country. The company in China gets the subsidy, and then the full price. Double dipping.

Screwing the tax payers over and over, to benefit the wealthy. That's what your subsidies do.

I am getting the feeling that you really don't know anything about this topic, and don't really care to. How is it that you post a link to an article that directly contradicts your statements about the article..... even after I already posted the exact same article?

You asume too much.
Yes I read and posted a fragment of your own article just to point out that the IMF still thinks

If I log into say.....

XE.com - USD CNY Chart

Currency exchange market. They don't care what China's official policy is. This is an open market. I can buy Yuan from someone, and there is nothing China can do... or the US for that matter, can do, to stop me. If I want to buy 5 yuan, for $1.... no one could stop me from doing that. And if I wanted to buy 10 Yuan for $1, as long as someone was willing to make that trade, I could do that.

what??? So a central bank can't increase the money supply of its own currency? How naive.

Of course they can. HELLO.... WE DO TOO. Maybe the US dollar is undervalued?

You are in fact proving to me you don't understand even the terms you are throwing around.

You just don't seem to understand what it is you are talking about.

When the IMF, or Obama, or any government, or any one anywhere, says that Yuan is undervalued......

What they are saying is, the value the government claims that currency has, is not really what the real market value is.

When they say the Yuan is undervalued, they mean the government of China is setting a price for their currency that is lower, than the real market value of the currency.

If they printed money to devalue the Yuan.................... hello..... It isn't undervalued. They changed the real market value.

Just like if we print more dollar we wouldn't say the dollar is "undervalued"... it has simply lost value. The new real market value is lower. Its not "undervalued" because the real value is less. It simply has less value.

Increasing the money supply does not cause money to be "undervalued". No, it simply makes the value less. The real market value is now less. It isn't undervalued.

And increasing the money supply is what every country does, that has control of it's own currency. Even the EU recently increased the supply of Euros.

We are just as much guilty of devaluing the dollar, as much as China the Yuan. If that's the complaint... then you have no argument. We're doing the same. Always have, by the way.

 

[CultureCitizen]

We are just as much guilty of devaluing the dollar, as much as China the Yuan. If that's the complaint... then you have no argument. We're doing the same. Always have, by the way.

So , the fact that the Chinese government uses part of its income to purchase a nice stash of dollars ( 4T ) doesn't mean they are keeping the yuan undervalued , it just means the dollar has ( how did you put it ) gained value.

Ok , have it your way . The end result is the same. US factories can't compete with Chinese prices and going into an importing spree doesn't make the US any richer, specially because most of those imported goods have been acquired through debt ( not public debt, but private debt).

Government Debt Isn t the Problem Private Debt Is - The Atlantic

With so many goods imported from China the fact that their private debt is growing so rapidly and a crisis is looming doesn't make me comfortable at all. But then maybe it is a chance for the US to regain is production capacity.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

US factories can't compete with Chinese prices.

100% stupid. We cant compete with SA banana prices either so the liberal wants to ban banana imports, grow our own and somehow paying $10.00/lb will make us richer than paying 10 cents/lb.

See why we are positive that a liberalism is based in pure ignorance. The liberal is too stupid to know he is against progress. If CA has cheap fruits and vegetables should NEw Jersey ban them to get richer?? 100% stupid and liberal.

 

[Andylusion]

We are just as much guilty of devaluing the dollar, as much as China the Yuan. If that's the complaint... then you have no argument. We're doing the same. Always have, by the way.

So , the fact that the Chinese government uses part of its income to purchase a nice stash of dollars ( 4T ) doesn't mean they are keeping the yuan undervalued , it just means the dollar has ( how did you put it ) gained value.

Ok , have it your way . The end result is the same. US factories can't compete with Chinese prices and going into an importing spree doesn't make the US any richer, specially because most of those imported goods have been acquired through debt ( not public debt, but private debt).

Government Debt Isn t the Problem Private Debt Is - The Atlantic

With so many goods imported from China the fact that their private debt is growing so rapidly and a crisis is looming doesn't make me comfortable at all. But then maybe it is a chance for the US to regain is production capacity.

First, again if the Yuan is undervalued, we should see that. We don't. Stash of dollars blaw blaw blaw... all irrelevant. The Yuan is either undervalued, or it is not. If it was, we should see it. We don't. The public market for Yuan, shows that the market price is exactly the same as the government stated value. Therefore it is not "undervalued".

Second, nearly every single country in the has a stash of dollars. Even North Korea has a stash of US dollars. So if having a stash of US dollars means the local currency is devalued, then are you suggesting that every single currency in the world is undervalued? Ridiculous.

Third, US Factories have been competing with the world for decades. I don't understand how no one knows this. Do you even know that 2013 was a record year in US manufacturing? Manufacturing in the US has increased in product every single year with the exception of 2008 to 2009.

Like I said before, we export manufactured goods to China. BMW exports to China from the US. By they way, you would have that, and those jobs eliminated, if we prevented international investment.

Lastly, debt is a problem the individual. Debt is just as bad, if we buy locally, than if we buy international. If we didn't buy foriegn goods, then we would be in MORE debt, because the cost of goods would be higher. How is that a win?

 

[danielpalos]

what??? So a central bank can't increase the money supply of its own currency? How naive.

dear, real economic growth comes from Republican new inventions not new liberal money! if currency manipulation mattered every country would do it and have 50% GDP growth per year.

dude, where have you been? have you not heard of a Congressional Continental.

 

[CultureCitizen]

First, again if the Yuan is undervalued, we should see that. We don't. Stash of dollars blaw blaw blaw... all irrelevant. The Yuan is either undervalued, or it is not. If it was, we should see it. We don't. The public market for Yuan, shows that the market price is exactly the same as the government stated value. Therefore it is not "undervalued".

Second, nearly every single country in the has a stash of dollars. Even North Korea has a stash of US dollars. So if having a stash of US dollars means the local currency is devalued, then are you suggesting that every single currency in the world is undervalued? Ridiculous.

Oh , come on , the fact is that the Chinese stash of USD is nearly of 4 Trillion. That is a huge stash. No other country hase ever had such a huge reserve. They are larger than the reserves of japan, saudi arabia, switzerland, taiwan , south korea, brasil , and Russia put together. It is not the fact that they have reserves, but how huge those reserves are.

List of countries by foreign-exchange reserves - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[CultureCitizen]

Third, US Factories have been competing with the world for decades. I don't understand how no one knows this. Do you even know that 2013 was a record year in US manufacturing? Manufacturing in the US has increased in product every single year with the exception of 2008 to 2009.

Like I said before, we export manufactured goods to China. BMW exports to China from the US. By they way, you would have that, and those jobs eliminated, if we prevented international investment.

I didn't know that 2013 was a record year in US manufacturing. Its an interesting fact worth of further analysis. I'll do some research and be back to make further comments on this topic.

 

[Andylusion]

First, again if the Yuan is undervalued, we should see that. We don't. Stash of dollars blaw blaw blaw... all irrelevant. The Yuan is either undervalued, or it is not. If it was, we should see it. We don't. The public market for Yuan, shows that the market price is exactly the same as the government stated value. Therefore it is not "undervalued".

Second, nearly every single country in the has a stash of dollars. Even North Korea has a stash of US dollars. So if having a stash of US dollars means the local currency is devalued, then are you suggesting that every single currency in the world is undervalued? Ridiculous.

Oh , come on , the fact is that the Chinese stash of USD is nearly of 4 Trillion. That is a huge stash. No other country hase ever had such a huge reserve. They are larger than the reserves of japan, saudi arabia, switzerland, taiwan , south korea, brasil , and Russia put together. It is not the fact that they have reserves, but how huge those reserves are.

List of countries by foreign-exchange reserves - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

No, $4 Trillion includes all reserves, Euros, Pounds and so on. Yes, they do have $3.3 Trillion in US reserves, but even that isn't actually in real dollars. Most of it is in Bonds and Treasuries.

Which again... we can fix that. Stop borrowing money. I agree with that policy.

Further, I still don't see any evidence that them owning our bonds is bad. You do realize that during the time frame that China acquired all those reserves, was during the high stable growth of the US economy..... right? Late 80s, 90s and early 2000s was when most of those bonds and T-bills were bought from us.

Third, US Factories have been competing with the world for decades. I don't understand how no one knows this. Do you even know that 2013 was a record year in US manufacturing? Manufacturing in the US has increased in product every single year with the exception of 2008 to 2009.

Like I said before, we export manufactured goods to China. BMW exports to China from the US. By they way, you would have that, and those jobs eliminated, if we prevented international investment.

I didn't know that 2013 was a record year in US manufacturing. Its an interesting fact worth of further analysis. I'll do some research and be back to make further comments on this topic.

2007 was a record year in Manufacturing before the recession.

It's amazing to me that so many people don't know this. Did you based your whole argument against international corporations and free trade, on 'we're losing manufacturing capacity'?

FYI..... the first total Free-Trade Agreement the US signed, was implemented in1985-1986.

It doesn't look to me like we have ever had a hard time competing internationally with 1st world, or 3rd world countries.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Lastly, debt is a problem the individual. Debt is just as bad, if we buy locally, than if we buy international. If we didn't buy foriegn goods, then we would be in MORE debt, because the cost of goods would be higher. How is that a win?

I desagree in this topic. Local debt can be controlled (at least in the mid term) . There is no control over foreign debt . While it is relatively easy to devaluate a currency it is hard to revalue it. Further more there is no control over interest rates

FYI..... the first total Free-Trade Agreement the US signed, was implemented in1985-1986.

It doesn't look to me like we have ever had a hard time competing internationally with 1st world, or 3rd world countries.

That single chart looks ok except for the last 10 years ( 2000 -2010 )

These two charts tell a different story.

While it is true the us had a manufacturing record on 2013, it seems 2008 was the last year in which the US was the country with the largest manufacturing output.
The jobs that were lost will probably will not be recovered they have either been outsourced or taken by automation. It makes me wonder what kind of future will await for people who lack the skills to get a job in other areas ... I had great expectations from the STEM areas, but recently I've read articles stating that STEM is not undersupplied.
I am not really sure this kind of lack of demand ( for jobs) is something the market will be able to adjust by itself.

IMHO the three pilars of development are science , technology and industry. The US no longer has the upper hand in one of them.