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Oh for heaven's sake. I wish you were as picky when team Israel claims it as Jewish land. No "their" arguments then.Then why are we arguing? That is essentially what I meant.
We are arguing because you didn't say "shared land" or "disputed land". You said "their land", in the context of Arab Palestinians. In future, if you mean shared land or disputed land you need to specify that.
You miss my point. Their arguments are consistent with their beliefs. Just as Tinmore's daily referral to Palestinian land is consistent with his beliefs.
But if you and I are going to continue to present ourselves as the only two people on this entire board who see the territory as *shared* land it is incumbent upon us to be consistent in our use of language.
I called you out because I want to know if you really believe that the territory is "Arab land" or "Palestinian land". Are you misrepresenting your beliefs?
There ya go... Been trying to tell you that...
You figured out how to say it in less than my 150 words.. So -- I ask you AGAIN -- does it matter if they ARE a people if they can't organize for representation and governance?
Yes...it does. Because it's identity. An identity that recognizes a shared culture, heritage, and if they can get their act together - a future. Denying it is denying THEIR right to an identity, history, a being. And that is what this is all about isn't? When you deny a people their identity, you erase them.
I just told you that NO ONE can deny anyone their identity... Even if I choose to identify as a spotted owl or a unicorn....
THat's why this doesn't matter...
Now folks over history HAVE been deprived of their religion or political views or even their voice in total.. Been deprived of their FREEDOM which is even worse.. But writing a law taking away an identity, never made a diff in the struggles..
Can you expand on this? I'm not sure I understand you.
IMO people can and are deprived of their identity. Case in point - the Rohinga in Myanmar.
Cases like the Rohinga or the Uyghars are ethnic persecution.. When a govt power decides to persecute them, it's because the govt ACCEPTS their identity as a crime.. You and I both know how extreme this is..
But nobody is stripping them of their identity/ethnicity.. They are being persecuted BECAUSE of it...
ALL of the Palis within Israel probably are not genuine Palestinian.. In terms of when they came and what allegiances to countries that they had before... Palestinians simply don't WANT "Israeli rights".. They want sovereignty.. They are not being stripped of rights because they are Palestinian.. They are refugees from conflict that have been occupied.. And if they HAD a history of self-governance and self-representation to go along with that Pali identity -- they'd be much farther towards negotiating a settlement...
But the "Pali identity" lacks that history and determination....
Actually - with the Rohinga they ARE being stripped of their identity. That is the peculiar evil of it (other than the obvious genocide) - they are not called "Rohinga" - an identity that establishes them as a minority in Myanmar, but "Bengali" by the Myanmar government. They are stripped of their identity, history and lives.
Yes, I'm comfortable adding that to a list of possible traits. Not required, but a possible salad ingredient.I agree. That is a great definition. I would add to your list of traits - a shared national history that unites the group as one group and begins the process of separation into a different “people”. In my opinion that can be a turning point in separating a group of people out of a larger group. Much as genetic bottlenecks through geographical barriers can create new species, a similar thing can happen to separate one group from a larger culture and create a new one. In that sense it is an organic evolution of a people.
I was thinking when I wrote this as an objective possibility and not necessarily relating to this specific conflict. Interesting that you assumed that.First: is the “malice” malice? IS there malice and is it entirely where you seem to want to place it?
Those are leading question, so I'm not going to bite. But I'll ask a different question based on your premise: If there is a group of people disenfranchised from nationalist movements and "losing out" -- why is that, do you think?Is there a group of people disenfranchised from the nationalist movements playing out around them?
Is there a group of people who see themselves as losing out in this?
But not a history that they steal from other peoples.It seems to me that a shared unique history that binds them is sufficient.
In this context? Yep. If you want to talk about disenfranchised nationalism, absolutely there has to be purpose. Otherwise we are just tossing definitions around like philosophy majors in the cafeteria line.Does there have to be a “purpose”?
I disagree. Show me. I can buy a "shared history" beginning in the late 60s (Arafat, Abbas and all that). Not at all convinced about the rest of it. But, if there is something I don't know, please feel free to enlighten me.I believe the Palestinians meet some of those requirements: myths and stories, a shared history Naqba, life and cultural changes within refugee camps. It might not be centuries old but if there is no magical date or time frame, then I think these would qualify to separate them as a their own entity.
There is a magical date: 28 May 1964, when a new political entity "the Palestinian people" was declared.I didn't answer this earlier because I was on my phone during my lunch half hour and I feel you deserve a better answer then a snark - thank you for a serious reply!
It might not be centuries old but if there is no magical date or time frame, then I think these would qualify to separate them as a their own entity.What is "a people"?
A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.
Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
Btw, if you answer my post, can you try to do so without putting up my avatar? I know what it looks like. Just press the "post reply" button.
Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
You never addressed rylah's question about leading by example. Did you even read the article he posted? When is Spain going to grant citizenship to the descendants of the Muslims she expelled during the Inquisition? What about the right of return? Let's see how much you like living as a dhimmi under Sharia law.
Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
Why don't you stop fixating on Israel, Jose, and worry about Catalonia instead.
Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.
Tough question.
In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.
That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.
And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.
When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Depends on what they "need" it for. What's the purpose of being a "people"?
Language. Ceremonial practices. Life event practices. Celebrations. Holidays. Religious practices. System of laws. Special diets. Distinctive clothing. Rituals and ritual objects. Myths and stories. Moral precepts. Probably some I've missed.
As an objective requirement? No. They very often do, however. Its a definitive marker, imo.
As an objective requirement, in the modern sense? No. This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous. On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?
Indeed, you still sidestep the question of what sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.
Tough question.
In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.
That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.
And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.
When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Depends on what they "need" it for. What's the purpose of being a "people"?
Language. Ceremonial practices. Life event practices. Celebrations. Holidays. Religious practices. System of laws. Special diets. Distinctive clothing. Rituals and ritual objects. Myths and stories. Moral precepts. Probably some I've missed.
As an objective requirement? No. They very often do, however. Its a definitive marker, imo.
As an objective requirement, in the modern sense? No. This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous. On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?
Also, they were invented in order to take advantage of all the familiar antisemit...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
Not only that, but Pallywood propaganda utilizes all the classic anti-Semitic canards from the Nazi era. That is why it was so essential to create this new "Palestinian" people to act as victim to the powerful and manipulative Jew forever working behind the scenes. Change the word Jew to Israel, and spin those tales of wagging the dog, sneaky Jews getting America to do their bidding, undue control and all the rest of the familiar themes. The Arabs in the region learned well from their years aligned with the Nazis and the casual Pallywood supporter todays feels perfectly comfortable repeating them.
For instance, here is a comment from a few Months ago accusing Jews of manipulating Muslims to kill Christians. It might as well have been lifted directly from the Protocols or Mein Kampf. I would suggest you pay close attention to who it was inspired enough to proclaim it a winner and soon thereafter agreed that it is a FACT that Jews are doing this.
Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.
And that is different from your obsessive hatred of Muslims...so much so you will resort to hate sites to promote outright lies (like when you claimed the notorious American Pedo Larry Nasser was a Muslim) It is time to start discussing the rape of Britain’s children. Ya know....that could come right out of Mein Kampf couldn't it? Canards based in hate and lies.
Pot Kettle Black.
I suggest you don't go down the bigot road and derail this thread without examining your own blemishes in the mirror (but please don't pop your zits publicly.)
Palestine.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?Indeed, you still sidestep the question of what sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?
Palestine.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?Indeed, you still sidestep the question of what sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.Those are terms of occupation.Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?
Palestine.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Those are terms of occupation.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?Indeed, you still sidestep the question of what sovereign Arab-Moslem territory is occupied.Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.Those are terms of occupation.
What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?
Indeed, no. You still sidestep the question of what soverign territory was controlled by Arabs-Moslems.
The fact that you have been clearly caught out lying more than once (the example I gave, your claims about Stanford, etc) makes anything you say suspect, including your never ending accusations of members supporting child rape. Your transparent attempt to derail a thread, who's topics is on whether or or not the Palestinians are a people, by changing it to antisemitism and bringing in stuff from another thread, isn't unnoticed.Also, they were invented in order to take advantage of all the familiar antisemit...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
Not only that, but Pallywood propaganda utilizes all the classic anti-Semitic canards from the Nazi era. That is why it was so essential to create this new "Palestinian" people to act as victim to the powerful and manipulative Jew forever working behind the scenes. Change the word Jew to Israel, and spin those tales of wagging the dog, sneaky Jews getting America to do their bidding, undue control and all the rest of the familiar themes. The Arabs in the region learned well from their years aligned with the Nazis and the casual Pallywood supporter todays feels perfectly comfortable repeating them.
For instance, here is a comment from a few Months ago accusing Jews of manipulating Muslims to kill Christians. It might as well have been lifted directly from the Protocols or Mein Kampf. I would suggest you pay close attention to who it was inspired enough to proclaim it a winner and soon thereafter agreed that it is a FACT that Jews are doing this.
Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.
And that is different from your obsessive hatred of Muslims...so much so you will resort to hate sites to promote outright lies (like when you claimed the notorious American Pedo Larry Nasser was a Muslim) It is time to start discussing the rape of Britain’s children. Ya know....that could come right out of Mein Kampf couldn't it? Canards based in hate and lies.
Pot Kettle Black.
I suggest you don't go down the bigot road and derail this thread without examining your own blemishes in the mirror (but please don't pop your zits publicly.)
The fact that you support the rape of children in Britain has nothing to do with the antisemitic roots of the creation of a brand new "Palestinian" people.
And neither that thread you brought on antisemitism in Europe. You want to argue off topic? Meet me in the FZAlso, they were invented in order to take advantage of all the familiar antisemit...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
...springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.
Existence predicated on eliminating another's sovereignty is certainly sketchy and I agree, a disqualification.
Not only that, but Pallywood propaganda utilizes all the classic anti-Semitic canards from the Nazi era. That is why it was so essential to create this new "Palestinian" people to act as victim to the powerful and manipulative Jew forever working behind the scenes. Change the word Jew to Israel, and spin those tales of wagging the dog, sneaky Jews getting America to do their bidding, undue control and all the rest of the familiar themes. The Arabs in the region learned well from their years aligned with the Nazis and the casual Pallywood supporter todays feels perfectly comfortable repeating them.
For instance, here is a comment from a few Months ago accusing Jews of manipulating Muslims to kill Christians. It might as well have been lifted directly from the Protocols or Mein Kampf. I would suggest you pay close attention to who it was inspired enough to proclaim it a winner and soon thereafter agreed that it is a FACT that Jews are doing this.
Europe: The Psychological Gap Between East and West.
And that is different from your obsessive hatred of Muslims...so much so you will resort to hate sites to promote outright lies (like when you claimed the notorious American Pedo Larry Nasser was a Muslim) It is time to start discussing the rape of Britain’s children. Ya know....that could come right out of Mein Kampf couldn't it? Canards based in hate and lies.
Pot Kettle Black.
I suggest you don't go down the bigot road and derail this thread without examining your own blemishes in the mirror (but please don't pop your zits publicly.)
The fact that you support the rape of children in Britain has nothing to do with the antisemitic roots of the creation of a brand new "Palestinian" people.
They speak Arabic, like in 21 other countries. They wear the keffiya and hijab, like in 21 other countries. They eat hummus and shwarma, like in 21 other countries. They celebrate Mohammed's birthday and Abraham's near sacrifice of his son, like in 21 other countries.
In Israel, they speak Hebrew. It's the only country with this national language. In Israel, they wear the kippa and kova temble, like in no other country. In Israel, they eat gefilte fish, kugel, kishke, and cholent, like in no other country. In Israel, the national holidays are Yom Kippur, Passover and Hanukkah. These are no other country's national holidays.
Why does Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? Is this what the world really needs?
"Why does 
Tinmore want to destroy the only Jewish state in the world to set up a 22nd jihadist state? 
It is a distinct and unifying marker that is not shared by any other people. They have Palestinian citizenship. No other people can say that.A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.What is "a people"?
Tough question.Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?
In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.
That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.
And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.
When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.At what point do they become a "people"?
Depends on what they "need" it for. What's the purpose of being a "people"?Do they need a unique culture
Language. Ceremonial practices. Life event practices. Celebrations. Holidays. Religious practices. System of laws. Special diets. Distinctive clothing. Rituals and ritual objects. Myths and stories. Moral precepts. Probably some I've missed.(and what "defines" a unique culture"?)
As an objective requirement? No. They very often do, however. Its a definitive marker, imo.Do they need a unique language?
As an objective requirement, in the modern sense? No. This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous. On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.Do they have to have had a nation?Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Citizenship is a function of state - not of being "a people".
People within a loosely defined area called the “Bible Belt” are sometimes called, you know, “Bible Belters”. That’s also a marker but it doesn’t identify anything particularly unique.It is a distinct and unifying marker that is not shared by any other people. They have Palestinian citizenship. No other people can say that.A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.What is "a people"?
Tough question.Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?
In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.
That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.
And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.
When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.At what point do they become a "people"?
Depends on what they "need" it for. What's the purpose of being a "people"?Do they need a unique culture
Language. Ceremonial practices. Life event practices. Celebrations. Holidays. Religious practices. System of laws. Special diets. Distinctive clothing. Rituals and ritual objects. Myths and stories. Moral precepts. Probably some I've missed.(and what "defines" a unique culture"?)
As an objective requirement? No. They very often do, however. Its a definitive marker, imo.Do they need a unique language?
As an objective requirement, in the modern sense? No. This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous. On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.Do they have to have had a nation?Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.
Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.
Citizenship is a function of state - not of being "a people".
The names “palestine” and its derivative “palestinian” are European, not Middle Eastern. Jews were first called “palestinians“ by the British. My family members in the Mandate had “palestinian“ stamped on their documents.
