Are the Palestinians a real people?

[ForeverYoung436]

Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.

Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

Well, it depends on the boundaries of Areas A, B and C, and on whether Oslo is dead or not.

 

[admonit]

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

Well, it depends on the boundaries of Areas A, B and C, and on whether Oslo is dead or not.

Oslo was dead from the beginning.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.

Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?

 

[rylah]

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?

28% under the control of the Jewish Nation,
only one legitimate control according to international law.

 

[rylah]

The Egyptians - Masarwa clan

The Masarwa clan (in Arabic : Masarwa , in Hebrew transliterated from Mazarwa ) is one of the largest Arab families in Israel. The name of the clan preserves its Egyptian origin.

History
The geographical proximity and the fact that the Land of Israel was for centuries under a regime centered in Egypt led to the almost permanent migration of peasants and Bedouins from Egypt to the Land of Israel. Beginning in the 18th century , this immigration increased, culminating in the days of Ibrahim Pasha, who conquered Palestine in 1831 and ruled it until 1840 . Many of his soldiers had deserted and remained in the country, and general immigration had increased since his rule. During the British Mandate many workers were brought from Egypt and some remained in Israel. The rise in the standard of living of the Arabs in the country also had a great influence on the Egyptian fellahs from the delta region, who suffered from great poverty and overcrowding.

The Egyptian immigrants dispersed throughout the country, but mainly concentrated between Tulkarm and Gaza. Some of the names of the villages and the family names of the Arabs in the country testify to the Egyptian origin or hint at a certain place of origin in Egypt. According to Yaakov Shimoni, this group is the largest of the foreign minorities among Muslims in Israel. [1] [2]

 

[José]

GOLDA AND JOSÉ
​

Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

Peace will come when America will love her skyscrappers (and the americans inside them) more than she loves jewish racism in Palestine.

José

 

[Dogmaphobe]

What is "a people"?

A "people" is a cohesive group of individuals who self-identify and can be distinguished in point of fact from other groups through measurable traits or factors. Those traits have traditionally included culture, language, religious beliefs, geographic locality, ceremony and ritual, a system of laws, worldview, specific ceremonial practices, system of myths and legends, connection to monuments and antiquities, political views or aspirations, tribal and familial relationships and probably a few things I've missed. A "people" typically has a number of these different traits and can be readily distinguished from others, even if they may share some similar traits.

Who gets to decide whether or not they are a "people"?

Tough question.

In the absence of malice, I'd say that only the people can decide if they are different from all other people.

That said, malice exists and thus an objective standard would be a reasonable starting place.

And that said, recognition is also a factor, in that if there is no way for a reasonable person to distinguish between your people and another people...um....shrug.

At what point do they become a "people"?

When they are sufficiently distinguished, in point of fact, from other people.

Do they need a unique culture

Depends on what they "need" it for. What's the purpose of being a "people"?

(and what "defines" a unique culture"?)

Language. Ceremonial practices. Life event practices. Celebrations. Holidays. Religious practices. System of laws. Special diets. Distinctive clothing. Rituals and ritual objects. Myths and stories. Moral precepts. Probably some I've missed.

Do they need a unique language?

As an objective requirement? No. They very often do, however. Its a definitive marker, imo.

Do they have to have had a nation?

As an objective requirement, in the modern sense? No. This presumes that new cultures and "peoples" can not come into being which is sort of ridiculous. On the other hand, most of today's "peoples" do actually have a some sort of history as a self-governing entity.

......and, of course, their sense of peoplehood arose naturally over time rather than springing into existence quite suddenly as a propaganda tool.

The incredibly dishonest Islamist will never admit this, however. Truth, here, runs counter to her subversive agenda.

 

[rylah]

GOLDA AND JOSÉ
​

Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

Peace will come when America will love her skyscrappers (and the americans inside them) more than she loves jewish racism in Palestine.

José

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

 

[Dogmaphobe]

GOLDA AND JOSÉ
​

Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

Peace will come when America will love her skyscrappers (and the americans inside them) more than she loves jewish racism in Palestine.

José

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

 

[admonit]

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?

Palestine? Where is it?

 

[Hollie]

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?

Wben you write "Palestine", you fail to identity the soverign territory of such a place.

What foreign military controls soverign territory of a place you can't identify?

 

[José]

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

​

Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:

​

The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?

Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza. (I mean the Arabs who live there, of course. Jews who live there usually have Israeli citizenship.) Virtually all Arabs born in Israel today hold Israeli citizenship, and would not give it up. Some Israeli Arabs are even Zionist, like Mohammed Zoabi, and serve in the IDF. I personally know of one Arab who moved from the West Bank to Israel, but never became an Israeli citizen. He is being deported back to the West Bank, but is fighting fiercely against that.

Mostly today, that is defined as the West Bank and Gaza.

Those are terms of occupation.

What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?

Stupid question. The definition of occupation is controlled by external military forces.

Your typical sidestep. The question was "What soverign territories controlled by Gaza or the West Bank are occupied?[

What part of Palestine is not controlled by foreign military?

All of what the international community recognizes to be a part of Israel proper.

 

[Hollie]

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

​

Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:

​

The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?

Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.

^^^^^ Message board gee-had.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

​

Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:

​

The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?

Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.

The only ones responsible for 9-11 were those extreme Muslim terrorists. None of those sick Muslim terrorists were even Palestinian. I watched that monster Osama's video at the time, and he used Israel as only one out of 4 or 5 excuses for that horrendous act. Why don't you stop fixating on Israel, Jose, and worry about Catalonia instead.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

​

Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:

​

The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?

Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.

You never addressed rylah's question about leading by example. Did you even read the article he posted? When is Spain going to grant citizenship to the descendants of the Muslims she expelled during the Inquisition? What about the right of return? Let's see how much you like living as a dhimmi under Sharia law.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane
hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason
enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

​

Let's establish a clear distinction here:

The government of the United States and the american people.

The 3000 innocent american civilians who perished in 2001 were completely innocent and didn't do anything to deserve their horrendous fate.

But the american government, America as a tribe, as a country, as a nation-state is a whole different story.

America spent the last 70 years providing the weapons that murder the palestinian people like for example Apache helicopters this palestinian refugee fighting for his right to return to Yibna referred to:

​

The american civilians didn't deserve to die but their country fully deserved the punishment.

Now Rylah or Dogmaphobe can reply:

José, can you really separate the just punishment inflicted on America from the unjust punishment inflicted on those 3000 americans?

Aren't the two punishments inextricably intertwined?

This would be an excellent reply to which I don't have a good answer let alone an excellent one...

Or maybe I do...

The two punishments can't realy be separated at all.

And that's precisely why I feel kind of bad when I make these references to 9-11.

The country deserved the punishment it received and much more...

I personally believe 10 skyscrappers would be a just punishment for America's pornographic financing of the murder of palestinians refugees.

But the 3000 american civilians definitely didn't deserve to have a single broken nail.

You never addressed rylah's question about leading by example. Did you even read the article he posted? When is Spain going to grant citizenship to the descendants of the Muslims she expelled during the Inquisition? What about the right of return? Let's see how much you like living as a dhimmi under Sharia law.

Btw, if you answer my post, can you try to do so without putting up my avatar? I know what it looks like. Just press the "post reply" button.

 

[Coyote]

GOLDA AND JOSÉ
​

Peace will come when the arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda Meir

Peace will come when America will love her skyscrappers (and the americans inside them) more than she loves jewish racism in Palestine.

José

Typical race bait of a desperate degenerate.

Maybe peace comes to Europe
when Span gives eastern Madrid to the Al-Andalus Caliphate.

Why don't you show by example?

Muslims Demand "Right of Return" to Spain

Antisemitic filth like to turn the tables by accusing the targets of theit insane hatred of being the haters. Jewish people merely wanting to exist is reason enough for these monsters to accuse them of racism.

Jewish people are no different than any other people when it comes racism, bigotry or any of a number petty or major hatreds. They are just people, good and bad and everything in between. Jews can be racist. Blacks can racist. It is just another kind of tribalism usually hidden under a thin veneer of nationalism. The people I admire are those who rise above it and see the commonality in all of us.

I don't understand those who seek to elevate them to a higher pedestal any more than I understand those who denigrate them to a lower level. It comes off rather patronizing.

 

[Shusha]

Palestinians were born in Palestine and hold that citizenship.

Nobody else can make that claim. That distinguishes them from all other people.

First, that is not true. Palestinian citizenship is not jus soli, nor was citizenship granted based on birthplace. Also, this is solely a political designation. Which is fine but doesn't necessarily constitute "a people"

 

[Coyote]

Then why are we arguing? That is essentially what I meant.

We are arguing because you didn't say "shared land" or "disputed land". You said "their land", in the context of Arab Palestinians. In future, if you mean shared land or disputed land you need to specify that.

Oh for heaven's sake. I wish you were as picky when team Israel claims it as Jewish land. No "their" arguments then.