CDZ Are Some Cultures Better Than Others?

[Asclepias]

You made a reading error. I said Dahmer not Donner but thanks for the reminder. Many people that practice western culture say they would have done the same thing.

Ah yes, and Dahmer is at home watching Oprah because what he did is accepted in Western Culture. Again, your vast grasp of reality brings me to my knees.

No. someone from another culture took Dahmer from this world. He is stuck somewhere between western culture and hell right now.

So far on this thread you've tried to argue that literature and technology are not important factors in the cultural development of societies. I look forward to your next shattering insight.

Nope. The only thing I argued was that no one can say what is a superior culture. Nice try though.

Are you really going to make me review your posts for you? Very tiresome.

Yes. Please quote the post where I said what you are claiming. Dont stall either. You just painted yourself into a corner. If you cant provide the quote I will accept your concession.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You arest too smart for me.

Which cultures support these acts ?

He is just being silly because he has failed to make his point. Its just an attempt at distracting people. Its an old but easily spotted debating tactic of the weak.

I think he believes it. Its fast becoming the creed for shit kickers who have a narrow range of references. They are all rapists as well you know.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yes, cultures that instruct you on how to beat your wife, stone to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, cutting off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, strapping bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many as possible are vastly superior to western culture.

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Which cultures support these acts ?

You tell us. You're the one so pleased to see Jews murdered.

 

[Liminal]

You can tell how much the rest of the world eschews western culture by the way they're all trying to emulate it.

That doesn't mean that it is better, which you still haven't defined.

Lots of people support Trump and that doesn't mean he is better.

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why do you think the number of books published defines what is better?

Sad.

 

[Liminal]

I think we can easily measure the accomplishments of Western Civilization and compare them with the history of other cultures.

When will you define better?

"Better" meaning in comparison with other cultures. Islamic Arab culture, for example, is clearly inferior to Western Civilization. How many books are published in predominantly Islamic nations? Any idea about that?

Why do you think the number of books published defines what is better?

Simply an indicator of which culture is more open to new ideas and differing opinions.

Let me guess. You deemed this an indicator? I wonder what they did before books existed? I guess you dont see the logical fallacy in attempting to define a culture as better using a definition derived from your own culture?

Astonishing!

 

[Liminal]

In what way?

Better at surviving and adapting to a changing world? Better at morality? Better at flourishing? How is such a judgement made?

I'll give you a small example of what I'm talking about. When Spain conquered the Americas they discovered many seemingly advanced civilizations of great cities, dams, canals, paved roads, systems of law and government, literature, science, art, etc. The Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and others seemed to have all the elements in place to advance and progress into a modern society, except they were missing one crucial technological development....the wheel. Because there were no suitable draft animals in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans the wheel had never been utilized as a method of conveyance. Not having the wheel as a basic tool severely limits any further progress; they can't develope gears or pulleys, water wheels etc., all the things that lead to more advanced technology. The cultures of the Americas couldn't compete and so they succumbed.

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

 

[Liminal]

Ah yes, and Dahmer is at home watching Oprah because what he did is accepted in Western Culture. Again, your vast grasp of reality brings me to my knees.

No. someone from another culture took Dahmer from this world. He is stuck somewhere between western culture and hell right now.

So far on this thread you've tried to argue that literature and technology are not important factors in the cultural development of societies. I look forward to your next shattering insight.

Nope. The only thing I argued was that no one can say what is a superior culture. Nice try though.

Are you really going to make me review your posts for you? Very tiresome.

Yes. Please quote the post where I said what you are claiming. Dont stall either. You just painted yourself into a corner. If you cant provide the quote I will accept your concession.

It must be frustrating for you to be just on the verge of deeper insight and then have it slip away.

 

[Asclepias]

In what way?

Better at surviving and adapting to a changing world? Better at morality? Better at flourishing? How is such a judgement made?

I'll give you a small example of what I'm talking about. When Spain conquered the Americas they discovered many seemingly advanced civilizations of great cities, dams, canals, paved roads, systems of law and government, literature, science, art, etc. The Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and others seemed to have all the elements in place to advance and progress into a modern society, except they were missing one crucial technological development....the wheel. Because there were no suitable draft animals in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans the wheel had never been utilized as a method of conveyance. Not having the wheel as a basic tool severely limits any further progress; they can't develope gears or pulleys, water wheels etc., all the things that lead to more advanced technology. The cultures of the Americas couldn't compete and so they succumbed.

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

 

[Liminal]

In what way?

Better at surviving and adapting to a changing world? Better at morality? Better at flourishing? How is such a judgement made?

I'll give you a small example of what I'm talking about. When Spain conquered the Americas they discovered many seemingly advanced civilizations of great cities, dams, canals, paved roads, systems of law and government, literature, science, art, etc. The Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and others seemed to have all the elements in place to advance and progress into a modern society, except they were missing one crucial technological development....the wheel. Because there were no suitable draft animals in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans the wheel had never been utilized as a method of conveyance. Not having the wheel as a basic tool severely limits any further progress; they can't develope gears or pulleys, water wheels etc., all the things that lead to more advanced technology. The cultures of the Americas couldn't compete and so they succumbed.

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

Now you're just lying. As if no one can read what you wrote. There it is right in front of you.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I wonder how you figure thats any different than what goes on in western culture?

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Which cultures support these acts ?

You tell us. You're the one so pleased to see Jews murdered.

Why would you say that ? You are not well.

 

[Asclepias]

In what way?

Better at surviving and adapting to a changing world? Better at morality? Better at flourishing? How is such a judgement made?

I'll give you a small example of what I'm talking about. When Spain conquered the Americas they discovered many seemingly advanced civilizations of great cities, dams, canals, paved roads, systems of law and government, literature, science, art, etc. The Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and others seemed to have all the elements in place to advance and progress into a modern society, except they were missing one crucial technological development....the wheel. Because there were no suitable draft animals in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans the wheel had never been utilized as a method of conveyance. Not having the wheel as a basic tool severely limits any further progress; they can't develope gears or pulleys, water wheels etc., all the things that lead to more advanced technology. The cultures of the Americas couldn't compete and so they succumbed.

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

Now you're just lying. As if no one can read what you wrote. There it is right in front of you.

I see you are confused. I cant be held responsible because you think asking you a question is arguing that literature is not an important part of some cultures. Literature was first created by an African so I would agree its important in some societies. I just wondered why you thought it was the only indicator. Sorry but you fail again.

 

[Liminal]

I'll give you a small example of what I'm talking about. When Spain conquered the Americas they discovered many seemingly advanced civilizations of great cities, dams, canals, paved roads, systems of law and government, literature, science, art, etc. The Aztecs, Mayans, Incas and others seemed to have all the elements in place to advance and progress into a modern society, except they were missing one crucial technological development....the wheel. Because there were no suitable draft animals in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans the wheel had never been utilized as a method of conveyance. Not having the wheel as a basic tool severely limits any further progress; they can't develope gears or pulleys, water wheels etc., all the things that lead to more advanced technology. The cultures of the Americas couldn't compete and so they succumbed.

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

Now you're just lying. As if no one can read what you wrote. There it is right in front of you.

I see you are confused. I cant be held responsible because you think asking you a question is arguing that literature is not an important part of some cultures. Literature was first created by an African so I would agree its important in some societies. I just wondered why you thought it was the only indicator. Sorry but you fail again.

You are absolutely right. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but you are clearly the master of deductive reasoning. I just want to thank you for broadening my horizons and expanding my perspective.

 

[Asclepias]

So now you think not inventing the wheel is what caused the attempted genocide of the natives by harbingers of western culture.?

Western culture didnt invent the wheel so that may throw a snag in your logic. Also the Maya and the Axtecs did use the wheel. This is just another example of how indoctrinated you are.

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

Now you're just lying. As if no one can read what you wrote. There it is right in front of you.

I see you are confused. I cant be held responsible because you think asking you a question is arguing that literature is not an important part of some cultures. Literature was first created by an African so I would agree its important in some societies. I just wondered why you thought it was the only indicator. Sorry but you fail again.

You are absolutely right. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but you are clearly the master of deductive reasoning. I just want to thank you for broadening my horizons and expanding my perspective.

I am honored I was able to educate you. I was wondering when you were going to see the logical fallacy in your OP. You resisted, deflected, and attempted to poison the well but at least you were able to see the error in your thinking.

 

[Liminal]

Talk about deflecting.

I guess this is about what I expected.. You couldnt provide any quotes saying what you claimed I said so you list posts that have nothing to do with your claim. My work here is done. I accept your concession.

Now you're just lying. As if no one can read what you wrote. There it is right in front of you.

I see you are confused. I cant be held responsible because you think asking you a question is arguing that literature is not an important part of some cultures. Literature was first created by an African so I would agree its important in some societies. I just wondered why you thought it was the only indicator. Sorry but you fail again.

You are absolutely right. I don't know why I didn't see it before, but you are clearly the master of deductive reasoning. I just want to thank you for broadening my horizons and expanding my perspective.

I am honored I was able to educate you. I was wondering when you were going to see the logical fallacy in your OP. You resisted, deflected, and attempted to poison the well but at least you were able to see the error in your thinking.

You've been very effective in educating me to the fact that a formal education is evidently wasted on some people.

 

[Unkotare]

The other terrible influence of Western Culture was stopping the practice of widows in India throwing themselves into the funeral pyres of their late husbands. Of course if they didn't cooperate the people helped her do it. It is a terrible law, that since invoked has not seen one widow from tossing herself into the fire. Because we all know, it would be impossible to do such a thing because you could be arrested for throwing yourself into a bonfire.

Maybe some of these people would have been happier if the Chinese had established global hegemony instead of the Europeans.

Chinese culture is vastly superior to Western Culture. Murdering 60 million of your own citizens in the past century was a great first step for the Chinese.

60 million? Are you kidding? Not even close. They don't know how many, but between the Chinese Civil War and the Great Leap Forward at least 200 million people are estimated to have perished.

Got a link to support that figure?

 

[Elvis Obama]

who says you're ordinary? or the norm?

This entire thread appears to be the logical fallacy of false presumption.

Seriously? You see no social development in the entire history of humanity? That's bizarre to me. The social evolution of the human race has been measured by the empowerment of the individual. The movement of power from the top. We have evolved from thinking leaders were gods to believing they ruled by divine right, to the Magna Carta, where the king was forced to share power, to the modern developments of the free press, which has lead to Gandhi and King and Biko and Walesa, putting true power into the hands of ordinary people.

Of course there is social development though I disagree with your conflicting examples. Where did I say different? The false presumption of the thread comes in when one use the logical fallacy that some cultures are better than others. The whole thing rests on amusing belief that one culture can decide what is superior and what is not.

A very confusing reply. Cultures develop but that development is irrelevant? All cultures do is decide what is superior and what is not. That's how they develop. Do you think North Korea has a bright and vibrant culture? They don't. How about Russia? What was the Arab Spring except yet another example of cultures yearning for what we have in the West?

The Enlightenment started in Europe, but they didn't adopt the principles developed by those philosophers until we showed them the way. Then they did. Why? Because the idea of a nation built on the principle of a social contract was clearly better. An important evolutionary step forward. One which I have no problem labeling as superior.

You managed to imply I said something again that I didnt say. You dont have to do that to make your point. Yes all cultures decide what they think is superior but that doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. Some cultures think eating monkey brains is superior food culture. Some dont. Who is correct and what makes them correct? I dont live in North Korea so how would I know if they have a bright and vibrant culture? Its possible they do since S. Korea does.. Same with Russia.

The Enlightenment was based on the teachings of the Moors that literally reeducated europeans to Greek history and their own history. If there were no Moors then europe is stuck in the dark ages where they thought water contained evil spirits and considered not bathing a good thing. Also the Enlightenment was not really so enlightening. This is the time period where the ideas of racial superiority for europeans were developed along with the rationalization for slavery. Practically everyone knows that isnt enlightening. In fact it shows that europeans had a hard time with comprehension.

Again, I find your perspective to be very strange. What I'm talking about is social evolution. It is no different from biological evolution. All such development is a continuum. Are such developments objectively superior? In the long run, yes. Changes are either beneficial or they are not. If they are beneficial they are retained. If they are beneficial they spread.

A continuum is a process which takes a loooong time to play out. The value of the incremental steps can be argued, but not the entire process. All cultures, from the Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon on, have contributed to this continuum. Islamic culture contributed important steps to this development, a long time ago. Then they suffered setbacks. They stagnated, in isolation, for a thousand years. Ever since they were thrust back into the international mix in WWI, their relative cultural inferiority has seemed glaringly apparent to most people in the West, but apparently not to you. You apparently do not see their tribalism as a backwards, less evolved state. You apparently don't see theocracy as less evolved than democracy.

The Enlightenment was based on every piece of philosophy which had previously been written. It was a philosophical evolution. Ignoring the benefits that have accrued from that is willful ignorance, imo. Your comments about slavery are absurd. Slavery had been a constant for all of human history until the time of the Enlightenment when it died out throughout the world. Yes, there were extremely contradictory aspects to Enlightenment concepts of equality and race. So what? Has America ever fully lived up to its principles? No. Does that negate the value of those principles? No. Were the founding fathers feminists? No. Does that mean the principles they enshrined weren't eventually the rationale behind the end of slavery and the rising equality of women? No. Did Enlightenment philosophers consider the LGBT community? Of course not. Does that mean that the eventual recognition of the equal status of the LGBT community was not based on the Enlightenment based principles enshrined in our Constitution? As Justice Kennedy wrote:

"The nature of injustice is that we may not always see it in our own times. The generations that wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment did not presume to know the extent of freedom in all of its dimensions, and so they entrusted to future generations a charter protecting the right of all persons to enjoy liberty as we learn its meaning. When new insight reveals discord between the Constitution’s central protections and a received legal stricture, a claim to liberty must be addressed."

Why is there a problem recognizing the superiority of this flexible, evolving system? Why is there a reluctance to state, unequivocally, that a system which suppresses women, which persecutes gays, which enshrines intolerance of religious differences, is inferior?

 

[Elvis Obama]

The Enlightenment started in Europe, but they didn't adopt the principles developed by those philosophers until we showed them the way. Then they did. Why? Because the idea of a nation built on the principle of a social contract was clearly better. An important evolutionary step forward. One which I have no problem labeling as superior.

That would depend upon your situation within that society.

No, it would not. The benefits of culture have never been made available to everyone within that culture. What we have achieved are systems which extend those benefits to an ever growing segment of society. It's not a straight line, but its trajectory, throughout history, has been to grow the number of people who can fit under the umbrella of such protections. The middle class is a fairly recent development. The rise of the middle class is a direct outgrowth of the spread of Enlightenment principles.

I've never understood why so many people, who can recognize how far we still have to go, completely fail to acknowledge how far we've come.

 

[Elvis Obama]

Western tradition toppled the Kings. Re-established democracy for the first time in 2,000 years. Those were new and different ideas, as were the discovery of vaccinations, atoms, etc. Yes, it took awhile for the old guard to accept the new ideas, but contrast that with China, where written language was kept as a state secret for centuries. I believe the OP is asking if this makes us "the greatest."
I say no. We have had some great ideas and great achievements, but so have other cultures. One doesn't have to play King of the Hill; it's a big planet.

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

There is still slavery in the US. Matter of fact slavery is still legal in the US. I'm assuming you didnt realize that?

????

 

[Weatherman2020]

Yes, you are correct. Western governments do enforce how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
No one can withstand your vast knowledge.

I was going to thank you for agreeing then I noticed you made up something no one else was talking about. We are talking about western culture not governments.

Governments do not mirror the cultures of its people?
OK then, people of Western Cultures openly support how to properly beat your wife, cuts off hands and feet of children for stealing a slice of bread, stoning to death your daughter for being raped and disgracing the family, strap bombs on 5 year olds, firing missiles at cities in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible.
You are just too smart for me.

Which cultures support these acts ?

You tell us. You're the one so pleased to see Jews murdered.

Why would you say that ? You are not well.

Why would anyone think you support Palestinian terrorists? I wonder.

 

[320 Years of History]

I dont understand how that was new or different or that they were the first to reestablished democracy? The got the idea of democracy from the Iroquois nation (already in practice) and the greeks. Western culture was also not the first to discover vaccines or discover the atom. Those discoveries were made long ago and many times before.

I got the feeling the OP wanted to establish that western culture was open to new ideas as a tradition when the facts are that its no more open to new ideas than other cultures.

No...they did not get the idea for democracy from the Iroquois...that is one of those stupid, left wing myths and lies........the Foumders were steeped in western history and philosophy.........and did not look to Stone Age primitives for the ideas for government.....

But western civilisation burnt witches and kept slaves. Women couldnt vote , in fact in most countries voting was restricted due to property rights. Where does the superiority come from ?

Hundreds of years ago....every culture burnt witches, every culture had slavery.......and in every culture women were chatel.....except for the rare few......but Western Civilization developed the philosophies and the attitudes and the means to make men and women free and equal...

There is still slavery in Africa....

We ended all of those practices...do you realize that?

There is still slavery in the US. Matter of fact slavery is still legal in the US. I'm assuming you didnt realize that?

????

I'm with you there. Last I read the 13th Amendment, it said, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Did the discussion shift to the similarity between slavery and the work prisoners do plus that performed by folks assigned to community service as part of their penalty for a crime committed?