Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[BreezeWood]

As a slave of Jews?

I never ONCE heard this stuff about Gentiles being the slaves of Jews.

liar, there is no difference than what is made so by racist than for their own personal distinction.

 

[Meriweather]

I started Sunday School at age 5, learning about Jewish history and traditions, and have continued to this day - more than 60 years later. I never ONCE heard this stuff about Gentiles being the slaves of Jews. All we were ever taught is that all people, Jew or Gentile, have a share in the World to Come if they are good, righteous people.

Early on, I ran across some of this, including Jesus now suffering in boiling excrement, Gentiles being slaves, etc. Did not take long to separate the wheat of Judaism from the chaff, and that the chaff came from a segment of Judaism who were fiercely loyal Jews. The reason that Gentiles were 'slaves' was because certain tasks needed to be done, but life for Jews would be above such everyday work. And, Jesus was being blamed for all the evils that befell Jews by those professing to be Christians.

In the end? My own feelings was that I wanted to hug and kiss away all the pain they had undergone--and, to re-introduce them to Jesus, not to be Christians, but so they might understand what a truly great Jewish man he was--a man who lived in and through such a difficult time in Jewish history. Without accepting the Christian religion, Jesus is a man Jews would be proud to claim. And, if tending their gardens would assist in bringing that about, I would happily tend gardens.

Meanwhile, studies into more main-stream Judaism introduced me to a beautiful faith. So I thank all Jews.

 

[Meriweather]

As a slave of Jews?

Certainly. Did you know that if a Jew and a slave/servant were caught outside at night with only one cloak between them, the slave/servant would be given the cloak?

 

[there4eyeM]

With thousands of years to refine all argumentation, almost anything can be honed down to being palatable. That does nothing to address the transcendent capacities of human spirit.

 

[rosends]

You really should watch more of the video and try to understand it instead of isolating a sentence a person says which doesn't even convey what you are claiming.

They're saying that non-Jews can look forward to being the slaves of Jews. You can continue denying it, but anyone who watches those videos will see that.

​

You're in denial.

See? This is exactly your problem. I never said that and in fact referenced something different but you have already decided your truth so you replace anything I say with your erroneous conclusion. Sad.

Your flippant dismissal of the fact that your religion is a xenophobic, ethnocentric tribal religion, doesn't make it not so. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

Except I'm not the one convinced that an entire religion is out to get me. You are. Now you can see why you have no friends.

Except you're the one in denial that your religion is a self-centered, ethnocentric, Jew-supremacist religion.

No, it isn't. Your ignorance of Judaism is staggering but is nothing compared to your arrogance in insisting you know the normative positions of Judaism when you don't.

You're just a liar.
Again, if you had watched all of the videos, you would have seen people saying things that directly contradict your claims. It is sad that you aren't even familiar with your own videos.

I already admitted to the fact that the non-religious Jews in the videos and one religious Jew, was against the idea of Gentiles becoming slaves. Can't you comprehend what you read? Practically all of the religious Jews, admitted that the goyim, will be slaves of the Jews. No one has to believe me, they just have to watch the video for themselves. You can deny it, but people are going to see religious Jews admitting that non-Jews will be serving them forever.

There is also the video showing how many religious Jews consider converts to be second-status Jews. Not 100% Jews. They won't marry their sons and daughters to the converts and state that converts should marry converts. One of them admits that the convert isn't really a Jew, because he was once a Gentile. Not a born Jew. There's also the testimony of more than one convert to Judaism, including a rabbi that recognizes the many problems that converts have in the Orthodox Jewish community. You can deny it, and pretend there's no issue, but non-Jews who watch those videos are going to see the truth.

you like blaming everyone else because it supposedly takes the focus off your problems. You want to be loved by the world that sees you for the hateful and foolish person you are. You play the victim just not very well. Everyone else is wrong and lying and you are persecuted for telling the truth. You have a Jesus complex. So keep blaming victims, inventing conspiracies and misquoting people because that seems to define your existence.

Oh boohoo, you're the eternal victims of the goyim. You're all so innocent. The reality is that if Jews were keeping Torah as it should be kept, they wouldn't have all of these problems. Read the blessings that YHWH proclaims for those who actually keep Torah:

“If you follow my statutes and keep my commandments and observe them faithfully, I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit... I will grant peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and no one shall make you afraid; I will remove dangerous animals from the land, and no sword shall go through your land." (Leviticus 26:3-6)

"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God: You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country. The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed. You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out." (Deuteronomy 28:1-6)

If you obey, if you keep the Torah, if you do what you're supposed to do. It has nothing to do with you having a Jewish mother or a "Jewish soul" that is supposedly superior to the goy soul. According to Torah, you shouldn't even be in a state of suffering, or persecution, under the heel of the nations that don't keep the Torah. Living on welfare from the US, receiving your 4 billion dollars a year from Uncle Sam. Without peace in the land. Something is going wrong, with you, and that is your delusion that you are God's people without keeping YHWH's actual commandments.

Someday you might actually learn the actual position of Jewish law. It isn't the opinion of the few people in a video. Zechariah 8:22-23
"The many peoples and the multitude of nations shall come to seek the LORD of Hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.
Thus said the LORD of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold—they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”"

The Gentiles on the Time of Moshiach

www.chabadnj.org

Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. This page explains the Jewish attitudes towards non-Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in Olam Habah?

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in the world to come? I'll post the source text once I find it, or if someone can edit this and post the source for me. I believe it's in the Talmud, but not s...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Seven Universal Laws (of Noahides)

In both Jew in the City and my day job, I receive a surprising number of inquiries about conversion. While Judaism accepts converts, we discourage them because taking on Judaism is such a huge commitment. If someone wasn’t born Jewish, they have no obligation to assume all that responsibility...

jewinthecity.com

Ask the Rabbi - Texas Jewish Post

Dear Rabbi Fried, Recently a non-Jewish friend asked me why someone would want to convert to Judaism. Although I could think of a lot of reasons, I’m not sure which one was the best. What would your answer be? Thank you, Courtney R. Dear Courtney, First I would ask, what is your motivation? If it

tjpnews.com

You see, I'm one step ahead of you. I know the positions of rabbis like R. Yosef who made statements about non-Jews serving Jews, but I also know that his voice is not the one representing mainstream Judaism. If you want to read a good and exhaustive discussion of the historical statements about the differences between Jews and non-Jew, you just have to ask (instead of assuming you know everything). This isn't a secret

https://hakirah.org/Vol%2016%20Balk.pdf

but you have to read the whole thing and see that it is a collection of opinions and interpretations, but not rulings. Maimonides' position is much closer to the one that Orthodoxy's mainstream has adopted.

You are better served asking questions and trying to learn than assuming everyone is out to get you. And in terms of "keeping the Torah" you know very little of what the Torah is and teaches so you should probably steer clear of that.

 

[Lisa558]

Early on, I ran across some of this, including Jesus now suffering in boiling excrement, Gentiles being slaves, etc. Did not take long to separate the wheat of Judaism from the chaff, and that the chaff came from a segment of Judaism who were fiercely loyal Jews. The reason that Gentiles were 'slaves' was because certain tasks needed to be done, but life for Jews would be above such everyday work. And, Jesus was being blamed for all the evils that befell Jews by those professing to be Christians.

In the end? My own feelings was that I wanted to hug and kiss away all the pain they had undergone--and, to re-introduce them to Jesus, not to be Christians, but so they might understand what a truly great Jewish man he was--a man who lived in and through such a difficult time in Jewish history. Without accepting the Christian religion, Jesus is a man Jews would be proud to claim. And, if tending their gardens would assist in bringing that about, I would happily tend gardens.

Meanwhile, studies into more main-stream Judaism introduced me to a beautiful faith. So I thank all Jews.

Thank you. It is my belief that most Jews view Jesus as a good Jewish man, who taught traditional Jewish values. I have mentioned before that his teachings were obviously influenced by those of Hillel, whom Jesus admired. It is also the belief of the vast majority of Jews that Jesus did not intend to start a new religion at all - that came later.

 

[Meriweather]

I have mentioned before that his teachings were obviously influenced by those of Hillel, whom Jesus admired. It is also the belief of the vast majority of Jews that Jesus did not intend to start a new religion at all - that came later.

Not only Hillel, but Jesus was clearly influenced by Isaiah as well.

It does seem that Jesus' intent was to make some changes to the religion of his own day, perhaps changes back to an earlier time? Many Jews saw Herod's rebuilding of the second Temple as the third Temple foretold in prophecy. With the destruction of Herod's Temple, Jesus as Messiah instead took hold. At the same time Gentiles were accepting the teachings of Jesus as a new Judaism, which were--in the main--Jewish theology. Traditional Jews became alarmed with both of these events and began their own crusade arguing that renovating the second Temple was not the same as building a new one, and that Jesus was not a human manifestation of God.

In many respects, Jesus' life had an effect on two religions, and it could be loosely argued that he created two religions--that his life did re-focus Judaism as well. Also, had Jewish authorities listened to Jesus and the Apostles, we might have had one united faith.

 

[rylah]

We atone through repentance, prayer and acts of charity.

Shalom ahi,
been enjoying reading your posts lately.
On a side note, have You been acquainted with Manitou?



Now, specifically regarding the post, the problem with
'atonement' and 'repentance' is these terms are very much
percieved in association with the narrow Christian perceptions of the G-dly.

What do You think about the idea that, for us Jews, and the universal terminology
for the families of earth, the universal terminology should be singular - Teshuvah?

 

[rylah]

The suffering servant is Israel. God refers to Israel being his servant many times

Read Isaiah 53 in context.

We mostly disagree,
however, we agree on this,
and this is an important one.

Pretty much sums up the entire thread.

 

[surada]

We mostly disagree,
however, we agree on this,
and this is an important one.

Pretty much sums up the entire thread.

Christians look for anything that might refer to Jesus in the old testament.

 

[Moonglow]

Jesus doesn't fit the prophecies. He wasn't an anointed warrior king and he didn't vanquish the enemies of the Jews.

He wasn't even sexy

 

[rosends]

Shalom ahi,
been enjoying reading your posts lately.
On a side note, have You been acquainted with Manitou?



Now, specifically regarding the post, the problem with
'atonement' and 'repentance' is these terms are very much
percieved in association with the narrow Christian perceptions of the G-dly.

What do You think about the idea that, for us Jews, and the universal terminology
for the families of earth, the universal terminology should be singular - Teshuvah?

I am unfamiliar with R. Ashkenazi but that was an interesting shiur (though he jumped the shark when he mentioned Hollywood and connected it to Holy. And his view of New York isn't one I share...

in terms of language, I would rather use the technical hebrew terms to ensure that I can discuss with specificity the precise ideas but those words won't make sense to others so I do reduce or simplify and use the common English words. Does this cause confusion, yes. But it also helps bridge the gap to some degree.

 

[BreezeWood]

Certainly. Did you know that if a Jew and a slave/servant were caught outside at night with only one cloak between them, the slave/servant would be given the cloak?

well, that's a new one for me ...

- is that what your response is for your slave as a - christian.

- and, do you lay in the ditch while it is raining so they will not ruin their shoes ... christians really are a caring bunch. its in the c-bible, must be good. meriweather ...

 

[BreezeWood]

Jews view Jesus as a good Jewish man, who taught traditional Jewish values ...

judaism is not a heavenly religion, jesus never referred to himself as a jew nor ever promoted judaism as a worthy objective rather for bigotry and racism as its core values. hillel's golden rule during the events of the 1st century was an admonishment to jewish values hillel like most jews would not have supported.

l558's induced folklore is providence for the disingenuous they blindly ascend.

 

[BS Filter]

judaism is not a heavenly religion, jesus never referred to himself as a jew nor ever promoted judaism as a worthy objective rather for bigotry and racism as its core values. hillel's golden rule during the events of the 1st century was an admonishment to jewish values hillel like most jews would not have supported.

l558's induced folklore is providence for the disingenuous they blindly ascend.

Jesus is a Jew. Scripture is clear.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Reactions:Tom Paine 1949
What about what I said is wrong in your opinion?

It is probably impossible to convince you that these Judeo-Christian arguments about theology and dogma are ridiculous, that your own religious beliefs corrupt your reason and judgement and make you crazy and paranoid, and imprison rather than free your spirit.

Suffice it to say I think almost everything you say is “wrong,” or “right” in only a very narrow and superficial way. Not that this means those who cling desperately to Orthodox Jewish theology are “right” or closer to some supposedly “divine Truth.”

It seems to me a lot of your arguments are rooted in complaints that some very Orthodox Jews may not allow you as a Christian a sufficiently honored position in their or Yahweh’s “heaven.” I suppose there are Muslims and Hindus who say much the same about Christians & Jews and each other. Why do you worry about all that?

Most non-religious people like myself can only laugh at all this. but I confess it saddens me — and rubs me the wrong way — when I meet religious fanatics of any religion who use their own superstition and dogma to complain about (or persecute) other groups.

Not that all groups, religions and dogmas are the same!

My point is that modern, cultured, ethical and “enlightened” Jews & Christians, Muslims & Hindus, atheists and agnostics, Deists, pagans, humanists, even neo-Confucians, socialists & capitalists … can all live in harmony so long as they don’t let identity politics, economic interests, political power, or simple paranoia corrupt their hearts and minds.

 

[BS Filter]

It is probably impossible to convince you that these Judeo-Christian arguments about theology and dogma are ridiculous, that your own religious beliefs corrupt your reason and judgement and make you crazy and paranoid, and imprison rather than free your spirit.

Suffice it to say I think almost everything you say is “wrong,” or “right” in only a very narrow and superficial way. Not that this means those who cling desperately to Orthodox Jewish theology are “right” or closer to some supposedly “divine Truth.”

It seems to me a lot of your arguments are rooted in complaints that some very Orthodox Jews may not allow you as a Christian a sufficiently honored position in their or Yahweh’s “heaven.” I suppose there are Muslims and Hindus who say much the same about you and each other. Why do you worry about all that?

Most non-religious people like myself can only laugh at all this, but I confess it saddens me — and rubs me the wrong way — when I meet religious fanatics of any religion who use their own superstition and dogma to complain about (or persecute) other groups.

Not that all groups, religions and dogmas are the same!

But modern cultured, ethical and “enlightened” Jews & Christians, Muslims & Hindus, atheists and agnostics, Deists, pagans, “humanists,” even neo-Confucians, socialists & capitalists … can all live in harmony so long as they don’t let identity politics, economic interests, political power, or simple paranoia corrupt their hearts and minds.

Are you a buddhist?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Someday you might actually learn the actual position of Jewish law. It isn't the opinion of the few people in a video. Zechariah 8:22-23
"The many peoples and the multitude of nations shall come to seek the LORD of Hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.
Thus said the LORD of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold—they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”"

The Gentiles on the Time of Moshiach

www.chabadnj.org

Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. This page explains the Jewish attitudes towards non-Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in Olam Habah?

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in the world to come? I'll post the source text once I find it, or if someone can edit this and post the source for me. I believe it's in the Talmud, but not s...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Seven Universal Laws (of Noahides)

In both Jew in the City and my day job, I receive a surprising number of inquiries about conversion. While Judaism accepts converts, we discourage them because taking on Judaism is such a huge commitment. If someone wasn’t born Jewish, they have no obligation to assume all that responsibility...

jewinthecity.com

Ask the Rabbi - Texas Jewish Post

Dear Rabbi Fried, Recently a non-Jewish friend asked me why someone would want to convert to Judaism. Although I could think of a lot of reasons, I’m not sure which one was the best. What would your answer be? Thank you, Courtney R. Dear Courtney, First I would ask, what is your motivation? If it

tjpnews.com

You see, I'm one step ahead of you. I know the positions of rabbis like R. Yosef who made statements about non-Jews serving Jews, but I also know that his voice is not the one representing mainstream Judaism. If you want to read a good and exhaustive discussion of the historical statements about the differences between Jews and non-Jew, you just have to ask (instead of assuming you know everything). This isn't a secret

https://hakirah.org/Vol%2016%20Balk.pdf

but you have to read the whole thing and see that it is a collection of opinions and interpretations, but not rulings. Maimonides' position is much closer to the one that Orthodoxy's mainstream has adopted.

You are better served asking questions and trying to learn than assuming everyone is out to get you. And in terms of "keeping the Torah" you know very little of what the Torah is and teaches so you sho

Someday you might actually learn the actual position of Jewish law. It isn't the opinion of the few people in a video. Zechariah 8:22-23
"The many peoples and the multitude of nations shall come to seek the LORD of Hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.
Thus said the LORD of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold—they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”"

The Gentiles on the Time of Moshiach

www.chabadnj.org

Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. This page explains the Jewish attitudes towards non-Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in Olam Habah?

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in the world to come? I'll post the source text once I find it, or if someone can edit this and post the source for me. I believe it's in the Talmud, but not s...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Seven Universal Laws (of Noahides)

In both Jew in the City and my day job, I receive a surprising number of inquiries about conversion. While Judaism accepts converts, we discourage them because taking on Judaism is such a huge commitment. If someone wasn’t born Jewish, they have no obligation to assume all that responsibility...

jewinthecity.com

Ask the Rabbi - Texas Jewish Post

Dear Rabbi Fried, Recently a non-Jewish friend asked me why someone would want to convert to Judaism. Although I could think of a lot of reasons, I’m not sure which one was the best. What would your answer be? Thank you, Courtney R. Dear Courtney, First I would ask, what is your motivation? If it

tjpnews.com

You see, I'm one step ahead of you. I know the positions of rabbis like R. Yosef who made statements about non-Jews serving Jews, but I also know that his voice is not the one representing mainstream Judaism. If you want to read a good and exhaustive discussion of the historical statements about the differences between Jews and non-Jew, you just have to ask (instead of assuming you know everything). This isn't a secret

https://hakirah.org/Vol%2016%20Balk.pdf

but you have to read the whole thing and see that it is a collection of opinions and interpretations, but not rulings. Maimonides' position is much closer to the one that Orthodoxy's mainstream has adopted.

You are better served asking questions and trying to learn than assuming everyone is out to get you. And in terms of "keeping the Torah" you know very little of what the Torah is and teaches so you should probably steer clear of that.

You're repeating yourself. The nations will want to serve the servants of God. The book written by the Jews states that the Jews are the "chosen ones" and will be exalted by the nations, forever.

Isaiah 60:10-12 in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) :

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you; for in my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I have had mercy on you. Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, so that nations shall bring you their wealth, with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste."

The Jews were being clobbered and exiled by the Babylonians and they wrote all of these verses in their holy book, stating how those non-Jews are going to serve them one day. You just assume that's true and you act accordingly, treating non-Jews as inferior to you, on the basis of pedigree and the notion of Jews having a superior soul than non-Jews.

Someday you might actually learn the actual position of Jewish law. It isn't the opinion of the few people in a video. Zechariah 8:22-23
"The many peoples and the multitude of nations shall come to seek the LORD of Hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord.
Thus said the LORD of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold—they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”"

The Gentiles on the Time of Moshiach

www.chabadnj.org

Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. This page explains the Jewish attitudes towards non-Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in Olam Habah?

Are non-Jews permanent slaves to Jews in the world to come? I'll post the source text once I find it, or if someone can edit this and post the source for me. I believe it's in the Talmud, but not s...

judaism.stackexchange.com

Seven Universal Laws (of Noahides)

In both Jew in the City and my day job, I receive a surprising number of inquiries about conversion. While Judaism accepts converts, we discourage them because taking on Judaism is such a huge commitment. If someone wasn’t born Jewish, they have no obligation to assume all that responsibility...

jewinthecity.com

Ask the Rabbi - Texas Jewish Post

Dear Rabbi Fried, Recently a non-Jewish friend asked me why someone would want to convert to Judaism. Although I could think of a lot of reasons, I’m not sure which one was the best. What would your answer be? Thank you, Courtney R. Dear Courtney, First I would ask, what is your motivation? If it

tjpnews.com

You see, I'm one step ahead of you. I know the positions of rabbis like R. Yosef who made statements about non-Jews serving Jews, but I also know that his voice is not the one representing mainstream Judaism. If you want to read a good and exhaustive discussion of the historical statements about the differences between Jews and non-Jew, you just have to ask (instead of assuming you know everything). This isn't a secret

https://hakirah.org/Vol%2016%20Balk.pdf

but you have to read the whole thing and see that it is a collection of opinions and interpretations, but not rulings. Maimonides' position is much closer to the one that Orthodoxy's mainstream has adopted.

You are better served asking questions and trying to learn than assuming everyone is out to get you. And in terms of "keeping the Torah" you know very little of what the Torah is and teaches so you should probably steer clear of that.

Ok I concede defeat.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Are you a buddhist?

Nope.

 

[rosends]

You just assume that's true and you act accordingly, treating non-Jews as inferior to you, on the basis of pedigree and the notion of Jews having a superior soul than non-Jews.

so you know how I act? How psychic of you. Now tell me what color shirt I'm wearing.