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CDZ Are Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia two sides of the same coin?

Dogmaphobe

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So when a man attacked a Sikh Temple, killing and injuring a number of people, thinking they were Muslims....that is “a rejection of a totalitarian, supremist ideology”.....

How interesting.

I didn't say it was, but thanks for your characterizing me as if I had.

While we are on the subject, though, your false equivalence comparing a lone gunman who kills several people (reprehensible as that was) to the systematic extermination of 6 million people is an insult to all who have suffered from genocide.
 

sakinago

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I posted this in CDZ because I want to explore this troubling mine field of labeling, suffering, and ostracizing groups in a civil matter. My position is that “isms” are dangerous, whether race, faith or ethnic group, they enevitably lead to human tragedy and there is no valid justification for those views.

Islamophobia is a really inaccurate term for the rhetoric of demonization and seperation that marks “isms”...Anti Muslimism might be better.

One of the things I find troubling is how many people who denounce anti-semitism will turn around and justify Islamophobia. Likewise, those who support Palestinian rights will turn around and deny the same rights to Jews. And they can’t see what they are doing.

What do they have in common?

They target a minority population in a country.
They promote disinformation and conspiracy theory about “the other”.
They utilize fear mongering.
They broad brush the other, painting the entire population around the world by the actions of a few, individuality is denied, acts of individual nations are ignored because the whole is held responsible.

They deny identity...Jews aren’t a people, Islam is not a religion.
They promote violence, wether tacitly or overtly.
They distort history.
They distort religion.
They scapegoat.

There is no question violence against innocent people occurs, whether it is the Holocaust or the genocide of today’s Rohinga. Or, terrorist attacks on a Jewish school or terrorist attacks on A Sikh Temple. I do not understand why it is impossible for some to see both as reprehensible, dangerous and to be denounced without reservation.

When I was looking for articles for this OP, I searched for “Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are the same thing” and I was surprised by the number of articles passionately denouncing that they were the same, mostly by Jewish authors while others saw the parallels. One author pointed out something interesting as well, the Jewish ownership of the Holocaust as a unique event that is incomparable to any other thus anti-semitism can not be comparable to any other “ism”. These are really touchy topics to discuss, but the author makes valid points, humanity is hardwired to commit genocide, it occurred in ancient world, it occurred in the “modern world” and it occurs today. It is the ultimate end result of “isms” and it is usually preceded by the same tactics and rhetoric designed to dehumanize, seperate, criminalize, and alienate the other. The “other” can never be a true citizen, they are a fifth column, they can’t be trusted, etc.

A couple of articles, food for thought. Quora isn’t an article, but a collection of responses to a question. Still it is revealing for what people think.

https://www.quora.com/Is-Islamophob...emitism-vs-contemporary-historic-Islamophobia

Most disagree with similarities...mostly by justifying Islamophobia. This one caught my eye though:

Yes, it is. The arguments are pretty much the same:

  • “Mass immigration of Muslims is destroying European culture.”
  • “Mass immigration of Jews is destroying the European race.”
  • “Muslims can't be trusted. Not all are terrorists, but most support terrorism.”
  • “Jews can't be trusted. Not all are bolsheviks, but most support communism.”
  • “Islam is a religion of violence.”
  • “Judaism is a religion of deceit.”
  • “Muslims will outnumber Europeans in Europe because they have more children.”
  • “Jews will outnumber Europeans in Europe because they have a child every year.”
And, in fact, many a islamophobe blame the mass immigration of Muslims to Europe today on World Jewry just as much as Hitler did 90 years ago, and for the very same alleged intent:

The Jews were responsible for bringing negroes into the Rhineland, with the ultimate idea of bastardizing the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate. For as long as a people remain racially pure and are conscious of the treasure of their blood, they can never be overcome by the Jew. Never in this world can the Jew become master of any people except a bastardized people.

– Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1925.​



And this article offers another view:
Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism: Different Religions, Same Hate
Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism: Different Religions, Same Hate


Islamophobia Denialism

Many Jews expend considerable amounts of energy denying that Islamophobia exists or, if it exists, that it is nowhere near as threatening or potent to its Muslim victims as anti-Semitism is to Jews. Part of the reason for this denial is that many Jews view Muslims and Arabs as enemies of Israel. This fear and mistrust itself often becomesIslamophobia. But even if it doesn’t, Jews who blame these two groups for Israel’s predicament can ill-afford to see any commonality with their perceived enemy.​

This bifurcation between Jews and Muslims costs both religions critical allies who could help each other fight against religious bigotry. Whether Jews wish to acknowledge this commonality or not, our historical plight as “the hated ones” shares much with Muslims. To give but one small example: while I don’t think much of the spectacle of Israelis (in Paris, an Israeli Jewish journalist and in Berlin, an Israeli Palestinian) who don kippot in Arab neighborhoods daring Muslims to assault them, the truth is that this is precisely the same form of bigotry Muslim women who wear the hijab and Sikh men who wear the turban, endure.

If we were smart, we would make a common alliance to fight this scourge, not separate ourselves by making our victimization worse than anyone else’s.


That last line can just as easily apply to Muslims, particularly in Europe where they are a minority under attack, yet they attack another minority under attack, Jews. Anti-semitism is prevalent among Muslims today but too few challenge it.
I don’t think that they are comparable or on the same level for a couple of reasons. One is you did not include one of the biggest sources of anti-semitism coming from the Muslim world. This type of anti-semitism states that Jews and the state of Israel needs to be wiped off of the planet, and it is their duty to do so. Contrast that to a generalized fear of Muslims committing acts of terrorism in Islamaphobia. I think it’s safe to say that there are at least 20 million Muslims who subscribe to this belief (probably more, that’s a low estimate). You have most of the Iranians, Palestinians, a majority of Saudis, a good amount of Sudanese and Lybians, Syrians, Yemen, etc., and close to another at least 5 million Muslims world wide who believe that. I’d say 20 million is a rather low estimate that advocates for basically genocide, or at the very least conversion by force through threat of death which isn’t all that much better.

I also think there is more justification for islamaphobia than there is for anti-semitism (depends on what you define as islamaphobia). Not saying that justification is warranted. It’s not hard to look at heinous terrorist attacks going after the innocent and have fear for the most common denominator behind those attacks. Like it or not, Islam does offer an easier path at justifying the use of violence compared to any other religion. That’s just the simple truth. I’m not saying that all or most Muslims want/seek/encourage violence/terrorism. No, a large majority of them are friendly wonderful people who’d make great neighbors. But for those who harbor resentful and destructive thoughts, they have a path that isn’t much of a cognitive leap to turn those evil thoughts into something righteous and just. That’s a very powerful combination of turning evil thoughts of hate, domination, and destruction into a righteous cause. That was Hitlers ideology, and he turned an entire western state into something evil. Islam was founded by a warlord, now I’m not saying it’s therefore a violent ideology, but it doesn’t resist violence as much as other religions. It’s also an ideology that believes that one day, everyone will be Muslim. Contrast that to the other major religions that make the opposite claims, that there will be few of you, and you will be persecuted. A large majority of the bad actors in Islam hurt other Muslims, but there is enough of harm that they also want to inflict on the west for the west to be concerned about. Again, this does not justify islamaphobia (which id characterize as “keep Muslims out of our country”). But to say Islam is a religion of peace isn’t entirely true. It can be, for most it is, but it doesn’t have to be. I think that is self evident.

So to answer the OP, yes, there is a difference between anti-semitism and islamaphobia. Both are certainly wrong. One says stay out of or country, the other says eradicate them from the earth.
 

Dogmaphobe

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No, obviously not.

Antisemitism is an extreme prejudice against an ethno-religious group, utilizes falsehoods to spread the hatred and has resulted in genocide.

"Islamophobia" is just a silly, made up word to describe those who reject a totalitarian, supremacist ideology responsible for a huge amount of the world's troubles today.

Islamists and terrorist supporters try to claim they are the same, but that is only because they have a political objective in making the ridiculous claim.

It's wrong to pre-judge any group of people, Jews, Muslims, Cops, School Teachers, Gingers, or Shriners based on the actions... good or bad ... of a few.

It's just lazy.
Islam is an ideology . The Quoran represents the instructions of a murderous warlord given to his warriors and the Hadiths represent accounts of him as offered by his followers. Together, they make up Islam.

What is actually lazy here is the refusal to learn what the Qur'an and Hadirhs contain while assuming that because Isalm is called a religion, it acts the same as any other .

The inability to distinguish between one thing and another is the ultimate laziness, here .
 

Kondor3

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...Islam generally respects Jesus as a prophet...
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

...Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Fortunately, historically, they have lacked the power to impose that old viewpoint upon others, until their own perspective changed.

...Boiling complex faiths down to bumper sticker memes is part of what fuels the rhetoric of intolerance...
True. Enemy Identification is an exercise in complex analysis, summarized by simplistic labels.

...It shows a general lack of (or cherry picked) knowledge...
While that can certainly hold true, it is by no means universally true.

Many objective, practical and highly knowledgeable people in non-Islamic cultures despise Islam and its dogma.


...People pick the ugliest parts, distort them and propagate them.
Yep. Like 9-11. Like the London Tube Bombings. Like Munich 1972. Like Lockerbie. All distortions.

--------------------

I genuinely admire your position; sensing its origins in tolerance and egalitarianism and righteousness.

I vigorously repudiate your position; knowing that it's tantamount to admitting a poisonous viper into our midst.

Islam and Western Civilization are like oil and water - they do not mix well over a prolonged period of time.

You cannot see it. Others can, Thank God.
 

SobieskiSavedEurope

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OK, you are on the unjustified fear side.
The purpose of terrorism is to instill fear.
Don't give other people reasons to be prejudice and the prejudices will go away.
Soooo, stop the terrorism.

Actually no. It won’t go away. There is no rational reason for prejudice against Jews. Yet it has never gone away.

Prejudices are about as rational as you can get, why would anyone go through life thinking everything was equal threat to them, or their society, when it's clearly not the case?
You would have a point if perception of threats were related to reality of threats.

Islamic terrorism is a threat, even if it's a rather smaller one.
Jewish Liberalism is in fact, even a much bigger threat, it weakens, degrades, and divides the nation from within.
So, are Russia, and China bigger threats than Islamic terrorism too.

Individualism is all about poor planning, and weak reactions, exactly why it belongs in the dust-bin of history.

You don't create a better society by thinking judge everybody as individuals, or everything's equal, and not a threat, that's how you create a terrible society, exactly why everything's going down the tubes in the West.

Individualism and individual rights is what built this country.

Individualism, and individual rights are ruining America, particularly groups tolerated by Individualism as they break-apart our society like Jewish Liberals, and Muslim radicals. (Among others)

Individualism, and Individual rights being what the U.S.A is founded on is a huge myth.

Oh really? Is that why only 6% of the U.S.A could vote in it's first election? Because only 6% of the U.S.A was qualified, as free White male property owners?

So, 94% of the U.S.A didn't even have Individual rights, and some were even severely oppressed, and discriminated against including Black slaves, Native Americans, early Asians, early Catholics particularly Irish Catholics, among others.
 
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SobieskiSavedEurope

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Are Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia two sides of the same coin?
No.

Anti-Semitism is an aversion to Jews attributable to Gentiles looking for scapegoats to cover their own shortcomings.

Islamophobia is an aversion to Muslims attributable to Unbelievers' revulsion at Islam's bloodthirsty warmongering nature.

The former is inappropriate.

The latter is a survival mechanism attributable to an existential threat to Western Civilization.

LOL, Why is one religious criticism so right, and another religious criticism so wrong?
Islam is not a religion.

It is totalitarianism disguised as a religion.

Islam generally respects Jesus as a prophet, Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Boiling complex faiths down to bumper sticker memes is part of what fuels the rhetoric of intolerance. It shows a general lack of (or cherry picked) knowledge. People pick the ugliest parts, distort them and propagate them.

Tolerance, and Individualism for all groups displays a severe naivety, and ignorance.

Especially for Semitic groups, like Jews, and Muslims who have a big time reputation of ethno-centrism, aggressiveness, and belligerence towards outsiders.

A.) Victims of Intolerance are in general caused by Balkanized, rather than solved by it, tell me who can attack who they don't see as an issue before their eyes?

B.) In aggressive intolerance events, sides tend to splinter, and therefor your group can be attacked, or have to defend against them regardless of tolerance, or individualism.

C.) Tolerance of different groups who don't assimilate, is classic Balkanization, and when groups compete over resources, jobs, money, food, water, faith, etc. etc. there's an increased likely hood of intolerance, or group vs group violence.

D.) Tolerating people who are quite different in culture, is a conflict of interest, ultimately there will be friction, and resentment by at least SOME individuals on both sides.

E.) Tolerance can caused to your people's demise, by allowing in hostile intruducers.
 
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SobieskiSavedEurope

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...Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Fortunately, historically, they have lacked the power to impose that old viewpoint upon others, until their own perspective changed.

Explain how Muslims have more power than Jews?

Certainly not in America. (Considering the Jews run Hollywood, dominate the media, contribute 1/2 of Democrat campaign money, make up between 1/3rd - 1/2 of all Billionaires in the U.S.A etc.)

Certiainly not in the Mid-East, either. (Considering Israel has Nukes, and other Arab, Turkic, and Persian states don't)
 
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So when a man attacked a Sikh Temple, killing and injuring a number of people, thinking they were Muslims....that is “a rejection of a totalitarian, supremist ideology”.....

How interesting.

I didn't say it was, but thanks for your characterizing me as if I had.

While we are on the subject, though, your false equivalence comparing a lone gunman who kills several people (reprehensible as that was) to the systematic extermination of 6 million people is an insult to all who have suffered from genocide.
And yet the example I gave is a perfect example of of what Islamophobia can lead to - what you call (your exact words):

Islamophobia" is just a silly, made up word to describe those who reject a totalitarian, supremacist ideology responsible for a huge amount of the world's troubles today.

Nor is it an isolated incident. There is ongoing genocide against the Muslim Rohinga by the Buddhist majority. Is genocide nothing more than “rejecting a totalitarian,supremacist ideology”?

The rhetoric and tactics of systemic dehumanization and demonization are the same.
 
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...Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Fortunately, historically, they have lacked the power to impose that old viewpoint upon others, until their own perspective changed.

Explain how Muslims have more power than Jews?

Certainly not in America. (Considering the Jews run Hollywood, dominate the media, contribute 1/2 of Democrat campaign money, make up between 1/3rd - 1/2 of all Billionaires in the U.S.A etc.)

Certiainly not in the Mid-East, either. (Considering Israel has Nukes, and other Arab, Turkic, and Persian states don't)
They do by virtue of sheer numbers.
 

SobieskiSavedEurope

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Are Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia two sides of the same coin?
No.

Anti-Semitism is an aversion to Jews attributable to Gentiles looking for scapegoats to cover their own shortcomings.

Islamophobia is an aversion to Muslims attributable to Unbelievers' revulsion at Islam's bloodthirsty warmongering nature.

The former is inappropriate.

The latter is a survival mechanism attributable to an existential threat to Western Civilization.

Exactly what any Anti-semite would say to defend his own beliefs.

What you said is no different from the anti-semites who proclaim that all Jews are thieves and that they secretly sacrifice Christian children.

There's a lot of hypocrisy on this thread, where one group (Jews) is invalid to attack, and the other group (Muslims) is valid to attack.

Extreme Collectivist views, and Extreme Individualist groups tend to be ignorant.

Saying there's no groups, or differences between groups is how Extreme Individualists behave.

Saying there's just groups, as if a group is a complete organism without variation is how Extreme Collectivists behave.

Ultimately, however Collectivism is more accurate, and strong.

Individualism tends to be inaccurate, and weak.

Individualists tend to be sort of Autistic, if you ask me.

The extreme Individualist would go so far as to say judge those who attack your nation, as just Individuals, rather than a threat, or menace to your people.

This is EXACTLY why Individualism needs to be put in the garbage can of history.

Extreme Collectivists tend to work together better for goals too, and tend to cling to culture for preservation, and value culture, and groups better.
 

SobieskiSavedEurope

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...Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Fortunately, historically, they have lacked the power to impose that old viewpoint upon others, until their own perspective changed.

Explain how Muslims have more power than Jews?

Certainly not in America. (Considering the Jews run Hollywood, dominate the media, contribute 1/2 of Democrat campaign money, make up between 1/3rd - 1/2 of all Billionaires in the U.S.A etc.)

Certiainly not in the Mid-East, either. (Considering Israel has Nukes, and other Arab, Turkic, and Persian states don't)
They do by virtue of sheer numbers.

Muslims outnumbered Jews in 1948, 1967, and 1973, all with Muslim losses to Israel.

Now Israel has nukes on the table as well.

We know Israel has nukes, because Mordechei Vanunu exposed them, he was also kidnapped by Israel, and jailed.
(Lovely people, let me tell you)
 
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" Know Hypocrisy "

* Valiance Of Deception *
There's a lot of hypocrisy on this thread, where one group (Jews) is invalid to attack, and the other group (Muslims) is valid to attack.
Individualism is a political science concept the expects non aggression principles be applied as a basis for establishing civil liberties , irrespective of which collective is in charge , which is entirely distinct from lauding democracy as tyranny by majority and not based in non aggression principles that is so clearly evident in governments elected by statistical majorities of fictional ishmaelism adherents .

Does fictional ishmaelism violate non aggression principles is a question posed repeatedly to those pretending to espouse civil liberties , but it is not taken as a legitimate question - Nomian Schism Spoken Idiom Off His Bah Hum Bug Ascribes Illegitimate Aggression ?

I have personally been told , unabashedly , that sharia applies to all and they would kill any who professes otherwise ; thus , my contempt against those with such principles and against those without regard for non aggression principles runs particularly deep , to include reporting the individuals to the local police , nsa and fbi .

Facts are that no israeli believes the 613 mitzvot apply to any other than to themselves within the city state of israel and they do not proselytize for converts or otherwise expect that those city state laws be implemented outside of israel , which is a marked distinction from the debase inanity of fictional ishmaelism .
 

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...Islam generally respects Jesus as a prophet...
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

...Judaism generally thinks Jesus is boiling in Hell in excrement.
Fortunately, historically, they have lacked the power to impose that old viewpoint upon others, until their own perspective changed.

...Boiling complex faiths down to bumper sticker memes is part of what fuels the rhetoric of intolerance...
True. Enemy Identification is an exercise in complex analysis, summarized by simplistic labels.

...It shows a general lack of (or cherry picked) knowledge...
While that can certainly hold true, it is by no means universally true.

Many objective, practical and highly knowledgeable people in non-Islamic cultures despise Islam and its dogma.


...People pick the ugliest parts, distort them and propagate them.
Yep. Like 9-11. Like the London Tube Bombings. Like Munich 1972. Like Lockerbie. All distortions.

--------------------

I genuinely admire your position; sensing its origins in tolerance and egalitarianism and righteousness.

I vigorously repudiate your position; knowing that it's tantamount to admitting a poisonous viper into our midst.

Islam and Western Civilization are like oil and water - they do not mix well over a prolonged period of time.

You cannot see it. Others can, Thank God.
You forgot the Armenian genocide.
 

Dogmaphobe

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They do by virtue of sheer numbers.


Since this is a thread attempting to equate "Islamophobia" with antisemitism, wouldn't it be better if you avoided confirming one of the absolute CLASSIC antisemitic canards about that dreaded Jew power?

Just saying.
 
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They do by virtue of sheer numbers.


Since this is a thread attempting to equate "Islamophobia" with antisemitism, wouldn't it be better if you avoided confirming one of the absolute CLASSIC antisemitic canards about that dreaded Jew power?

Just saying.
They do by virtue of sheer numbers.


Since this is a thread attempting to equate "Islamophobia" with antisemitism, wouldn't it be better if you avoided confirming one of the absolute CLASSIC antisemitic canards about that dreaded Jew power?

Just saying.

Huh? How is stating that Muslims have have more power than Jews due to sheer numbers world wide an antisemitic canard? A simple google search will confirm demographic reality.
 

Dogmaphobe

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They do by virtue of sheer numbers.


Since this is a thread attempting to equate "Islamophobia" with antisemitism, wouldn't it be better if you avoided confirming one of the absolute CLASSIC antisemitic canards about that dreaded Jew power?

Just saying.
They do by virtue of sheer numbers.


Since this is a thread attempting to equate "Islamophobia" with antisemitism, wouldn't it be better if you avoided confirming one of the absolute CLASSIC antisemitic canards about that dreaded Jew power?

Just saying.

Huh? How is stating that Muslims have have more power than Jews due to sheer numbers world wide an antisemitic canard? A simple google search will confirm demographic reality.

I thought you were following up on his themes about why Jews run Hollywood, control the media and exert undue influence. My mistake.

My apologies for that .
 

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