Any Serious Ideas on The Middle East?

[Indiana Oracle]

ItsFairmont

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Quote: Originally Posted by Evangelical
I got disgusted when Reverend Wright began to use an impression he got from the Holy Spirit was that we should reflect upon ourselves in regards to 9/11. What a veiled claim that Bush did it or that our bad policies caused such hatred.

Muslims hate us because we're Christian. No other reason needs be given.



I disagree.

First, we got along famously well with the Middle East throughout most of our nation's history. Prior to 1948, we were doing great with them. Oil was discovered in the Middle East, and U.S. Standard Oil got a lot of contracts with Arabia. Things were fine.

Then came the creation of Israel (led by the British), and since we joined sides with Israel (not saying whether that was a good or bad decision), then the Middle East started becoming more hostile toward the USA.

Terrorist activities against the USA by extremist Muslims began after the first Persian Gulf War.

Saudi Arabia let us mobilize troops and equipment in their land along the Iraqi border because the Saudis were worried that Saddam would invade and because we needed the strategic placement in order to more easily get into Kuwait and Iraq to defeat Hussein's army.

After the war, we kept troops in Saudi Arabia, both out of national interest and per their request. Osama bin Laden, having defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan (with US help, since he was our ally), wanted the U.S. troops out of Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has the holiest city in Islam, and bin Laden (and many others) felt it was a travesty for U.S. troops to be in their holy land.

So, they started striking out at Americans (Kenya, Yemen, WTC twice), etc.


I'm of the firm belief that if we withdrew all our troops from the Middle East, and let the UN handle the Israel situation, then the Muslim world would leave us alone.


Consider this: The nation with the most Muslims is actually Indonesia. We get along with them fairly well.

India has the second largest population of Muslims, and they are a democracy.

The United States has 10,000,000 Muslims, many of whom live in your town, and they aren't attacking anybody.


The problem isn't Muslims. It's politics and empire, just like it's always been.

+++
[Above is from another thread.]

Agree the point about politics and empire. Sometimes I wonder how the world would have turned out if Wilson had been assinated instead of the Archduke.

But we are stuck with Israel. Frankly I would like nothing better than to walk away from that area but the genie is out of the bottle.

Does anyone have any (serious) ideas as to what our strategy for the middle east should be?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You can't be serious?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

One can drill through glass I hear.

 

[neurosport]

One can drill through glass I hear.

seriously though. our government is full of Jews.

Missing Links

most of them Zionists.

there is nothing you can do but wait until Israelis kill the very last Palestinian in West Bank and Gaza.

after that the president is going to apologize to the Muslim world saying we made a terrible mistake - we didn't see what was going on - we should have resolved the problem one way or the other blah blah blah.

BUT WE BELIEVE IN LOOKING FORWARDS RATHER THAN BACKWARDS ! ! !

SUCK IT !

 

[krotchdog]

First, we got along famously well with the Middle East throughout most of our nation's history. Prior to 1948, we were doing great with them. Oil was discovered in the Middle East, and U.S. Standard Oil got a lot of contracts with Arabia. Things were fine.

You cannot make a false statement, I am surprised nobody called you on this, there was no middle east, all you have done is made us focus on 1948, that is the wrong starting point for this discussion.

If we cant get beyond this point, there is no discussion

 

[RodISHI]

Dumping Israel is a dumbass idea. For one you don't go dumping allies over bullies and terrorist. Unless of course your fine and dandy with the idea of being bullied around yourself. I am for one not.

Take my lunch money and pounce on me if you like but your not going to get me to just give it to becuase you think you can bully me into giving it to you.

Saddam slaughtered innocent babies for their own filthy greed in Kuwait. Either you have a very short memory or your to young to recall that incident. Our troops based out of Saudi one of our many allies to help put a stop to it. Kuwait is a Muslim country, yet they cheered when our troops marched into their cities to help deliver them from pure evil.

To your OP eludes that we should just let these Ben Ladin and Saddam type's have it because they have no power and they want it and they are willing to use any means possible to get it.


1990: Iraq invades Kuwait
More than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers backed up by 700 tanks invaded the Gulf state of Kuwait in the early hours of this morning.
"Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Well step one is to get our military out of the Middle East and end any sanctions we've got on Middle Eastern countries. Second is to offer the Middle East and Israel an equal hand of friendship.

"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all countries; entangling alliances with none." - Thomas Jefferson

 

[mash107]

All the problem started in 1918 when the Entente diced up Arabia to suit their colonial exploits.

We are suffering as a result of artificial factions, whose dictatorships suppresses any chance of liberty for the Arabs, that were created at that time. The prime example is Saudi Arabia. They follow Wahhabiism, an anti-Islamic sect that is bent on nationalism, rather than purity of religion. They even tried to destroy their prophet's tombs in centuries prior, so I doubt Islam has anything to do with what these nutcases preach.

If not for the billions of dollars the United States has poured into the many dictatorships that oppress its people in the Arab world, we'd see a much freer, prosperous and happier Middle East. The U.S. and the Middle East got along just fine from 1789 to 1914, so I don't understand why people think this recent escalation of violence is anything but a recent phenomenon.

Israel is not entirely to blame for the many dictatorships that are up-- that's a rather ridiculous assertion, as Israel's not responsible for what happens in Saudi Arabia or elsewhere outside its borders, but it certainly had no right to be created from Arab land prior to 1948. Again, this is what happens when we rely on international governance, such as the United Nations, that undermines sovereignty and liberty throughout the world. Despite what Karl Marx says, right to land/property is the most inalienable of basic human rights, and the international bodies deprived the Palestinians of that land, and that's another reason they're pissed off.

What's to learn? Empowering Socialist dictatorships and depriving people of their land can piss off a group of people badly enough. Time to follow Thomas Jefferson's advice to freely trade with all nations, but alliance with none.

 

[krotchdog]

Mash107, I like your post, only problem I find is this one part.

had no right to be created from Arab land prior to 1948

I dont understand how this statement is accurate. How do you define the land as Arab.

 

[xsited1]

any serious ideas on the middle east?

 

[Kalam]

Any serious ideas?

A timetable for a military withdrawal needs to be drafted and followed. A policy of evenhandedness in the Arab-Israeli conflict needs to be pursued, and it needs to be made clear to every country that our relationship with each of them will be dependent on their government's treatment of its citizens and those under its control - no more favoritism. Consequently, Israel and most of the Gulf States would have to reform politically or risk losing one of their most important allies. Energy independence would obviously need to be made a priority to make this strategy feasible.

 

[Kalam]

any serious ideas on the middle east?

View attachment 7287

The entire world would be affected by some sort of radiation-related illness after being exposed to radioisotopes created by the explosion. Plus, hundreds of millions of innocent lives would be needlessly destroyed. The Middle East is no more deserving of annihilation than the rest of the world.

 

[Kalam]

Mash107, I like your post, only problem I find is this one part.

had no right to be created from Arab land prior to 1948

I dont understand how this statement is accurate. How do you define the land as Arab.

It was populated mostly by Arabs and had been for quite some time. The Arab language, culture, and ethnicity were the most prevalent in the area in question, making it rightfully Arab land rather than land rightfully belonging to recent non-Arab immigrants.

 

[mash107]

Mash107, I like your post, only problem I find is this one part.

had no right to be created from Arab land prior to 1948

I dont understand how this statement is accurate. How do you define the land as Arab.

I meant, original inhabitants. The people that owned the land prior to 1948. I didn't mean to associate land with a race, as that seems to be the problem in the conflict. Land only belongs to the person that owns it, and that can't be deprived through force, under any circumstance.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Any serious ideas?

A timetable for a military withdrawal needs to be drafted and followed. A policy of evenhandedness in the Arab-Israeli conflict needs to be pursued, and it needs to be made clear to every country that our relationship with each of them will be dependent on their government's treatment of its citizens and those under its control - no more favoritism. Consequently, Israel and most of the Gulf States would have to reform politically or risk losing one of their most important allies. Energy independence would obviously need to be made a priority to make this strategy feasible.

Golly... we didn't have a Military presence in the Middle East when the Muslims FIRST waged war on the US... Hell we didn't even have much of a Military...

Conceding to Palestinian ("A policy of evenhandedness in the PALESTINIAN WAR ON ISRAEL) demands has never brought ANY OTHER REACTION FROM THE MUSLIMS THAN MORE IRRATIONAL VIOLENCE BY THE MUSLIMS...

Energy independence can only be accomplished by stripping the proceeds of the sale of oil FROM THE MUSLIMS.

 

[mash107]

Any serious ideas?

A timetable for a military withdrawal needs to be drafted and followed. A policy of evenhandedness in the Arab-Israeli conflict needs to be pursued, and it needs to be made clear to every country that our relationship with each of them will be dependent on their government's treatment of its citizens and those under its control - no more favoritism. Consequently, Israel and most of the Gulf States would have to reform politically or risk losing one of their most important allies. Energy independence would obviously need to be made a priority to make this strategy feasible.

Golly... we didn't have a Military presence in the Middle East when the Muslims FIRST waged war on the US... Hell we didn't even have much of a Military...

Conceding to Palestinian ("A policy of evenhandedness in the PALESTINIAN WAR ON ISRAEL) demands has never brought ANY OTHER REACTION FROM THE MUSLIMS THAN MORE IRRATIONAL VIOLENCE BY THE MUSLIMS...

Energy independence can only be accomplished by stripping the proceeds of the sale of oil FROM THE MUSLIMS.

You're sounding a lot like a Marxist right now. Stripping property from people? Never thought you'd say that.

Also, I never knew Muslims waged war on us prior to 1914. When and what was this? My history is a little bad around this time period.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

One can drill through glass I hear.

seriously though. our government is full of Jews.

Missing Links

most of them Zionists.

there is nothing you can do but wait until Israelis kill the very last Palestinian in West Bank and Gaza.

after that the president is going to apologize to the Muslim world saying we made a terrible mistake - we didn't see what was going on - we should have resolved the problem one way or the other blah blah blah.

BUT WE BELIEVE IN LOOKING FORWARDS RATHER THAN BACKWARDS ! ! !

SUCK IT !

You are insane, if Israel wanted to kill the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank they would all be dead. At the rate they are doing what you claim, the birth rate insures it simply will never happen, in fact the Arabs will continue to multiple.

 

[Kalam]

Golly... we didn't have a Military presence in the Middle East when the Muslims FIRST waged war on the US... Hell we didn't even have much of a Military...

The Barbary Pirates? The actions of North African thieves 300 years ago should influence our policies in the Middle East today? By extension of your logic, our closest ally should be Morocco. After all, they were the first foreign nation to recognize our government.

Conceding to Palestinian ("A policy of evenhandedness in the PALESTINIAN WAR ON ISRAEL) demands

You seem to be unable to comprehend basic English. "Evenhandedness" implies favoring neither side.

has never brought ANY OTHER REACTION FROM THE MUSLIMS THAN MORE IRRATIONAL VIOLENCE BY THE MUSLIMS...

We've never pursued a policy of evenhandedness as long as we've involved ourselves in the conflict. Our policy has always been to support Israel and to turn our backs whenever they decide to commit atrocities. What has that policy brought us? What actual benefit is there to our unconditional support of Israel?

Energy independence can only be accomplished by stripping the proceeds of the sale of oil FROM THE MUSLIMS.

Energy independence can be accomplished by relying on something other than oil, something that we can produce ourselves, for energy.

BTW, most of "THE MUSLIMS(!!1!!!!1!11!)" don't live in the Middle East.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Any serious ideas?

A timetable for a military withdrawal needs to be drafted and followed. A policy of evenhandedness in the Arab-Israeli conflict needs to be pursued, and it needs to be made clear to every country that our relationship with each of them will be dependent on their government's treatment of its citizens and those under its control - no more favoritism. Consequently, Israel and most of the Gulf States would have to reform politically or risk losing one of their most important allies. Energy independence would obviously need to be made a priority to make this strategy feasible.

Golly... we didn't have a Military presence in the Middle East when the Muslims FIRST waged war on the US... Hell we didn't even have much of a Military...

Conceding to Palestinian ("A policy of evenhandedness in the PALESTINIAN WAR ON ISRAEL) demands has never brought ANY OTHER REACTION FROM THE MUSLIMS THAN MORE IRRATIONAL VIOLENCE BY THE MUSLIMS...

Energy independence can only be accomplished by stripping the proceeds of the sale of oil FROM THE MUSLIMS.

You're sounding a lot like a Marxist right now. Stripping property from people? Never thought you'd say that.

Also, I never knew Muslims waged war on us prior to 1914. When and what was this? My history is a little bad around this time period.

Last I checked the Barbary Pirates were Muslim and also the Muslims helped the Turks in WW1.

 

[Kalam]

You are insane, if Israel wanted to kill the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank they would all be dead.

No they wouldn't. Israel's leadership isn't so fanatical that it doesn't realize that doing so would lead to Israel's destruction.