Annexing West Bank

[Coyote]

Because the settlement program did not exist prior to that event.

True only if you continue to frame "settlement" as applying uniquely to Jews/Israelis.

Example:

In 1931 two farmer families purchase land in what will become Area C and each family builds a village. One is Jewish. One is Arab.

In 1948 the Jews are expelled from their village. In 1967 the Arabs are expelled from their village.

Why is it that when the Jews return to their village, they are "settlers" building a "settlement" (with all the negative connotation which has been added to that word over time and has come to specifically mean Jews)?

And yet Arabs are "returning" or "liberating" land which "belongs" to them?


Example:

The JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem is considered a "settlement" in "occupied East Jerusalem". The JEWISH QUARTER.

Because it IS in this case - and it isn't how I define - it is how ISRAEL defines it.

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land? - and yes, at that time occupation was the correct term and the term used by the Israeli's themselves.

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews. You also forget - Palestinians were expelled. Where is their right to create settlements if we are going to be defining it so broadly as to be meaningless? How far back do you go ousting people? If you go back far enough everyone has a right to be there.

Settlements has a meaning and it doesn't have to be Jewish. But it does have to have a real definition, not just a convenient one. It's based on a program - a program with a religiously ordained purpose in this case, but it could be ethnic as well (such as what the Russians did) - of the deliberate settling of people in a region taken in war and under occupation and only that people. It is a program with an intent and typically government support with a motive of securing the territory. Not just people wandering in and moving in during natural migrations. In this case only ONE group gets to create settlements (unless you can give me an actual number of Arab settlements built since the territory was occupied).

It isn't about "right of return" it's about a specific program which has a direct impact on a two state solution. You can keep pretending it doesn't, but it isn't really up to the Jews to claim it doesn't, it's up to the Palestinians to determine whether or not settlements have an effect on the peace process. Just like the Palestinians can't claim "right of return" and Israel having to take in uptillion Palistinians should have no effect on the peace process. It does. From Israel's point of view, it's not up to the Palestinians to say what effects the peace process for the Israeli's.

 

[Coyote]

Because the majority of the pop consists of filthy Jews...Coyote and Tinmore won’t say it but IMO they think it.

What a stupid thing to say.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Because the majority of the pop consists of filthy Jews...Coyote and Tinmore won’t say it but IMO they think it.

What a stupid thing to say.

Yet several people agree. Just my opinion based on your and Tinmores posts.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Because the settlement program did not exist prior to that event.

True only if you continue to frame "settlement" as applying uniquely to Jews/Israelis.

Example:

In 1931 two farmer families purchase land in what will become Area C and each family builds a village. One is Jewish. One is Arab.

In 1948 the Jews are expelled from their village. In 1967 the Arabs are expelled from their village.

Why is it that when the Jews return to their village, they are "settlers" building a "settlement" (with all the negative connotation which has been added to that word over time and has come to specifically mean Jews)?

And yet Arabs are "returning" or "liberating" land which "belongs" to them?


Example:

The JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem is considered a "settlement" in "occupied East Jerusalem". The JEWISH QUARTER.

Because it IS in this case - and it isn't how I define - it is how ISRAEL defines it.

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land? - and yes, at that time occupation was the correct term and the term used by the Israeli's themselves.

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews. You also forget - Palestinians were expelled. Where is their right to create settlements if we are going to be defining it so broadly as to be meaningless? How far back do you go ousting people? If you go back far enough everyone has a right to be there.

Settlements has a meaning and it doesn't have to be Jewish. But it does have to have a real definition, not just a convenient one. It's based on a program - a program with a religiously ordained purpose in this case, but it could be ethnic as well (such as what the Russians did) - of the deliberate settling of people in a region taken in war and under occupation and only that people. It is a program with an intent and typically government support with a motive of securing the territory. Not just people wandering in and moving in during natural migrations. In this case only ONE group gets to create settlements (unless you can give me an actual number of Arab settlements built since the territory was occupied).

It isn't about "right of return" it's about a specific program which has a direct impact on a two state solution. You can keep pretending it doesn't, but it isn't really up to the Jews to claim it doesn't, it's up to the Palestinians to determine whether or not settlements have an effect on the peace process. Just like the Palestinians can't claim "right of return" and Israel having to take in uptillion Palistinians should have no effect on the peace process. It does. From Israel's point of view, it's not up to the Palestinians to say what effects the peace process for the Israeli's.

What would your solution be? Please share.

 

[Foxfyre]

Because the settlement program did not exist prior to that event.

True only if you continue to frame "settlement" as applying uniquely to Jews/Israelis.

Example:

In 1931 two farmer families purchase land in what will become Area C and each family builds a village. One is Jewish. One is Arab.

In 1948 the Jews are expelled from their village. In 1967 the Arabs are expelled from their village.

Why is it that when the Jews return to their village, they are "settlers" building a "settlement" (with all the negative connotation which has been added to that word over time and has come to specifically mean Jews)?

And yet Arabs are "returning" or "liberating" land which "belongs" to them?


Example:

The JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem is considered a "settlement" in "occupied East Jerusalem". The JEWISH QUARTER.

Because it IS in this case - and it isn't how I define - it is how ISRAEL defines it.

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land? - and yes, at that time occupation was the correct term and the term used by the Israeli's themselves.

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews. You also forget - Palestinians were expelled. Where is their right to create settlements if we are going to be defining it so broadly as to be meaningless? How far back do you go ousting people? If you go back far enough everyone has a right to be there.

Settlements has a meaning and it doesn't have to be Jewish. But it does have to have a real definition, not just a convenient one. It's based on a program - a program with a religiously ordained purpose in this case, but it could be ethnic as well (such as what the Russians did) - of the deliberate settling of people in a region taken in war and under occupation and only that people. It is a program with an intent and typically government support with a motive of securing the territory. Not just people wandering in and moving in during natural migrations. In this case only ONE group gets to create settlements (unless you can give me an actual number of Arab settlements built since the territory was occupied).

It isn't about "right of return" it's about a specific program which has a direct impact on a two state solution. You can keep pretending it doesn't, but it isn't really up to the Jews to claim it doesn't, it's up to the Palestinians to determine whether or not settlements have an effect on the peace process. Just like the Palestinians can't claim "right of return" and Israel having to take in uptillion Palistinians should have no effect on the peace process. It does. From Israel's point of view, it's not up to the Palestinians to say what effects the peace process for the Israeli's.

And the Jews have no say at all when they withdraw from the land Palestinians claim and Hamas or other militant groups immediate set up their rocket and missile launchers in those areas and fire away at Jewish homes and businesses? How much danger to you allow to your property and family before you say enough and no longer feel your neighbor has a right to that property?

It got so bad that even the U.N. conceded that the Israelis should control the Golan Heights seized from Syria in the Six Day War and which is critical to Israeli security being high ground that militant Syrians will certainly use to wreck havoc on Israel if they are allowed to have it back. Recently President Trump acknowledged that land to be Israel's rightful property.

How many mothers and small children have to be blown up on busses and how many crowded markets have to be suicide bombed before you say it is okay for Israel to deny access to those busses and markets by the non-Iraeli Palestinians since there is no way to know who is good and who is bad?

Israel, a teensy little strip of land smaller than the tiny state of New Jersey is all the Israelis want. It is hardly noticeable in the huge area of the Arab world and much larger area of all the lands controlled by Islam.

Jews have lived in that land--holy land to them as well as Christians but not so much Islam--for more than 4000 years. Israel has been a country now for 71 years, technically longer than a LOT of independent countries on Earth.

Why is it so important not to allow the Jews that land and the right to order their own affairs?

 

[Indeependent]

Because the settlement program did not exist prior to that event.

True only if you continue to frame "settlement" as applying uniquely to Jews/Israelis.

Example:

In 1931 two farmer families purchase land in what will become Area C and each family builds a village. One is Jewish. One is Arab.

In 1948 the Jews are expelled from their village. In 1967 the Arabs are expelled from their village.

Why is it that when the Jews return to their village, they are "settlers" building a "settlement" (with all the negative connotation which has been added to that word over time and has come to specifically mean Jews)?

And yet Arabs are "returning" or "liberating" land which "belongs" to them?


Example:

The JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem is considered a "settlement" in "occupied East Jerusalem". The JEWISH QUARTER.

Because it IS in this case - and it isn't how I define - it is how ISRAEL defines it.

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land? - and yes, at that time occupation was the correct term and the term used by the Israeli's themselves.

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews. You also forget - Palestinians were expelled. Where is their right to create settlements if we are going to be defining it so broadly as to be meaningless? How far back do you go ousting people? If you go back far enough everyone has a right to be there.

Settlements has a meaning and it doesn't have to be Jewish. But it does have to have a real definition, not just a convenient one. It's based on a program - a program with a religiously ordained purpose in this case, but it could be ethnic as well (such as what the Russians did) - of the deliberate settling of people in a region taken in war and under occupation and only that people. It is a program with an intent and typically government support with a motive of securing the territory. Not just people wandering in and moving in during natural migrations. In this case only ONE group gets to create settlements (unless you can give me an actual number of Arab settlements built since the territory was occupied).

It isn't about "right of return" it's about a specific program which has a direct impact on a two state solution. You can keep pretending it doesn't, but it isn't really up to the Jews to claim it doesn't, it's up to the Palestinians to determine whether or not settlements have an effect on the peace process. Just like the Palestinians can't claim "right of return" and Israel having to take in uptillion Palistinians should have no effect on the peace process. It does. From Israel's point of view, it's not up to the Palestinians to say what effects the peace process for the Israeli's.

They weren’t expelled; they ran to the West Bank of Jordan.
Jordan won’t let them come any further east.
The bottom line is that Jordan lost that land in war and in 2019, Israel is no longer taking bullshit from the UN.
No matter what your feelings tell you.

 

[Indeependent]

Because the settlement program did not exist prior to that event.

True only if you continue to frame "settlement" as applying uniquely to Jews/Israelis.

Example:

In 1931 two farmer families purchase land in what will become Area C and each family builds a village. One is Jewish. One is Arab.

In 1948 the Jews are expelled from their village. In 1967 the Arabs are expelled from their village.

Why is it that when the Jews return to their village, they are "settlers" building a "settlement" (with all the negative connotation which has been added to that word over time and has come to specifically mean Jews)?

And yet Arabs are "returning" or "liberating" land which "belongs" to them?


Example:

The JEWISH QUARTER of Jerusalem is considered a "settlement" in "occupied East Jerusalem". The JEWISH QUARTER.

Because it IS in this case - and it isn't how I define - it is how ISRAEL defines it.

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land? - and yes, at that time occupation was the correct term and the term used by the Israeli's themselves.

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews. You also forget - Palestinians were expelled. Where is their right to create settlements if we are going to be defining it so broadly as to be meaningless? How far back do you go ousting people? If you go back far enough everyone has a right to be there.

Settlements has a meaning and it doesn't have to be Jewish. But it does have to have a real definition, not just a convenient one. It's based on a program - a program with a religiously ordained purpose in this case, but it could be ethnic as well (such as what the Russians did) - of the deliberate settling of people in a region taken in war and under occupation and only that people. It is a program with an intent and typically government support with a motive of securing the territory. Not just people wandering in and moving in during natural migrations. In this case only ONE group gets to create settlements (unless you can give me an actual number of Arab settlements built since the territory was occupied).

It isn't about "right of return" it's about a specific program which has a direct impact on a two state solution. You can keep pretending it doesn't, but it isn't really up to the Jews to claim it doesn't, it's up to the Palestinians to determine whether or not settlements have an effect on the peace process. Just like the Palestinians can't claim "right of return" and Israel having to take in uptillion Palistinians should have no effect on the peace process. It does. From Israel's point of view, it's not up to the Palestinians to say what effects the peace process for the Israeli's.

And the Jews have no say at all when they withdraw from the land Palestinians claim and Hamas or other militant groups immediate set up their rocket and missile launchers in those areas and fire away at Jewish homes and businesses? How much danger to you allow to your property and family before you say enough and no longer feel your neighbor has a right to that property?

It got so bad that even the U.N. conceded that the Israelis should control the Golan Heights seized from Syria in the Six Day War and which is critical to Israeli security being high ground that militant Syrians will certainly use to wreck havoc on Israel if they are allowed to have it back. Recently President Trump acknowledged that land to be Israel's rightful property.

How many mothers and small children have to be blown up on busses and how many crowded markets have to be suicide bombed before you say it is okay for Israel to deny access to those busses and markets by the non-Iraeli Palestinians since there is no way to know who is good and who is bad?

Israel, a teensy little strip of land smaller than the tiny state of New Jersey is all the Israelis want. It is hardly noticeable in the huge area of the Arab world and much larger area of all the lands controlled by Islam.

Jews have lived in that land--holy land to them as well as Christians but not so much Islam--for more than 4000 years. Israel has been a country now for 71 years, technically longer than a LOT of independent countries on Earth.

Why is it so important not to allow the Jews that land and the right to order their own affairs?

Because people became accustomed to Jews being homeless; they can’t adapt to reality.
No matter how many wars God wins for the Jews.

 

[Shusha]

How many Arab settlements have been built since Israel occupied the land?

But your bias in setting up the question makes it impossible to give an answer other than the one you are using your bias to create. You insist that the "occupation" of 1967 is the only one which counts, so that any Jews are "settlers" (with the negative connotations of that term), while any Arabs are not settlers. You have set up the question so as to cheat the results.

Why not include 1948 war and occupation (which was actually an occupation), which also produced refugees and an exchange of populations?

Example: Before 1948 the Jewish Quarter was largely home to Jews. Those Jews were expelled in 1948 and a whole bunch of Arabs moved in. In 1967 the Jewish Quarter was liberated from Arab Jordanian occupation. Some Arabs were expelled. And a whole bunch of Jews moved (back) in.

So, in the Jewish Quarter of "East Jerusalem", which are the settlers? The Jews? or the Arabs?

 

[Shusha]

Not all or even most of those settlements exist on land previously owned by expelled Jews.

Link?

 

[Indeependent]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Jordan pays Israel to keep West Bank Arabs out of Jordan.
Bad Israel!

 

[José]

Originally posted by Shusha
Wow. Quite amazing, then, isn't it, that Jews with no nationalism created (actually reconstituted) an actual NATION. How can you possibly explain how the LACK of Jewish nationalism created a Jewish NATION? How do you explain that? What could possibly drive the Jewish people to do ALL THAT WORK for no reason?

I explain israeli nationalism in the exact same way I explain american and canadian nationalism.

The british colonists created American and Canadian nationalism...

Nobody in 17th century Britain had any emotional, national attachment to the north american landmass...

What created the real, not fictitious American and Canadian nationalisms was decades of european colonialism in North America.

The british colonial project in North America created both nationalisms.

Similarly there was no Jewish nationalism before the zionist movement got going.

Even in 1930 Jewish nationalism was still an exotic idea to most Jews as Uri himself pointed out.

ForeverYoung... listen to grandpa Avnery and learn that your own people (askhenazis as well as sefaradis and mizrahis) never had a nationalist attachment to Palestine:

MY FATHER was a Zionist. When he married my mother, a pretty young secretary, one of the wedding presents was a printed document stating that a tree had been planted in the name of the couple in Palestine.

At the time, the Zionists were a tiny minority among the Jews in Germany (and elsewhere). Most Jews thought that they were a bit crazy. A current joke had it that a Zionist was a Jew who gave money to a second Jew in order to send a third Jew to Palestine.

Why did my father become a Zionist? He certainly did not dream of going to Palestine himself.

So what about his Zionism? My father was a “Querkopf”, a contrarian. He did not like to run with the herd. It suited him to belong to a lonely little group. The Zionists.

​

So just like the british in North America, what created the israeli national identity was the Zionist colonization of Palestine...

The zionist colonial movement took a religious identity and a sense of people without nationalist attachment to the territory of Palestine and turned it into a new national identity (the israeli national identity) with a strong nationalist link to the biblical land.

The american, Canadian and Israeli nationalisms are all absolutely real, they do exist, but they are the result of colonialism... they are the result of a violent act through which foreigners moved to a land they were not natives of without the consent of the indigenous population.

They are totally different from, let's say, russian, french and italian nationalisms that are the result of natives developing a sense of national identity in their own historical homelands .

 

[José]

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
Oh, so now the Palestinians are the "real Jews"! Their story keeps changing. First they were descended from the Canaanites, then the Philistines, and now they're Jews.

And they are right on all counts!!

Palestinians descend from Canaanites, Philistines, Jews and all the other biblical peoples who inhabited their historical homeland.

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
You never explained why the poster child for Palestinian "resistance", Shirley Temper, has blond hair and blue eyes. Or why other blond-haired "Palestinians" occasionally pop up in Tinmore's pictures. Or why I once conversed with a blond-haired Palestinian at the Tomb of Abraham in Hebron.

I will let the british poster, Challenger, answer your question about Ahed, aka, Shirley Temper LOL:

 

[José]

Palestine was invaded by a small number of Europeans during the Crusades and the Ottomans relocated to Palestine some people from european parts of the empire like Bosnia.

So every now and then a "crusader" or "bosnian" gene pops up and you have a blond, blue eyed Palestinian.

Big deal.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Originally posted by Foxfyre
But when the Israelis prevailed and defeated those aggressors, the Israelis would not allow Palestinians who wanted them destroyed to come back citing that they had forfeited any right of return.

Europeans of jewish faith without a single drop of semitic blood running through their veins and with no nationalist attachment to Jerusalem, let alone the rest of Palestine, only a religious, metaphysical one, telling the real "Jews" of Palestine who never left the homeland of their jewish ancestors that "they had forfeited any right of return".

Quite ironic.

Don't tell us that we Jews have no "nationalist attachment to Jerusalem, let alone the rest of Palestine, only a religious, metaphysical one." You're from Spain, probably a Catholic, and you're confusing Judaism with Christianity and your "New Jerusalem" or the "Heavenly Jerusalem." We have an attachment to the earthly Jerusalem, as well as MANY other cities and towns in Eretz Israel, so none of this "let alone the rest of Palestine" applies to us..

So we have no real attachment to Jerusalem, "let alone the rest of Palestine"? Let me tell you about our attachment to other cities in what we call Eretz Yisrael, and NOT Palestine. Tiberias (Teveriya) is one of the 4 "holy cities" of Israel, along with Jerusalem, Sefad and Hebron (Chevron). Many important rabbis are buried there, and that's where the famous Hot Springs of Tiberias are located. Sefad is where the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) was born. It has a holy aura all its own and an artists' colony. Hebron is the city where our Patriarchs and Matriarchs are buried, and where King David was anointed. Bethlehem is King David's birthplace, and where his grandparents, Ruth and Boaz, married (although today it's mostly a Christian site). The beautiful port city of Jaffa is where the Prophet Jonah sailed out from, and the scene of the popular Israeli musical "Kazablan". Beersheba is where Abraham pitched his tent and where a modern university is located. Haifa is where the Cave of Elijah the Prophet is located (he hid there from the wicked Queen Jezebel). It's atop the majestic Mount Carmel. Many Israelis camp out at the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee, which is really a lake). The Dead Sea is also a popular tourist attraction. Need I go on? I venture to guess that you have never been to Israel. It's literally full of Jewish history--every nook and cranny of it.

 

[rylah]

Originally posted by Shusha
Wow. Quite amazing, then, isn't it, that Jews with no nationalism created (actually reconstituted) an actual NATION. How can you possibly explain how the LACK of Jewish nationalism created a Jewish NATION? How do you explain that? What could possibly drive the Jewish people to do ALL THAT WORK for no reason?

I explain israeli nationalism in the exact same way I explain american and canadian nationalism.

The british colonists created American and Canadian nationalism...

Nobody in 17th century Britain had any emotional, national attachment to the north american landmass...

What created the real, not fictitious American and Canadian nationalisms was decades of european colonialism in North America.

The british colonial project in North America created both nationalisms.

Similarly there was no Jewish nationalism before the zionist movement got going.

Even in 1930 Jewish nationalism was still an exotic idea to most Jews as Uri himself pointed out.

ForeverYoung... listen to grandpa Avnery and learn that your own people (askhenazis as well as sefaradis and mizrahis) never had a nationalist attachment to Palestine:

MY FATHER was a Zionist. When he married my mother, a pretty young secretary, one of the wedding presents was a printed document stating that a tree had been planted in the name of the couple in Palestine.

At the time, the Zionists were a tiny minority among the Jews in Germany (and elsewhere). Most Jews thought that they were a bit crazy. A current joke had it that a Zionist was a Jew who gave money to a second Jew in order to send a third Jew to Palestine.

Why did my father become a Zionist? He certainly did not dream of going to Palestine himself.

So what about his Zionism? My father was a “Querkopf”, a contrarian. He did not like to run with the herd. It suited him to belong to a lonely little group. The Zionists.

​

So just like the british in North America, what created the israeli national identity was the Zionist colonization of Palestine...

The zionist colonial movement took a religious identity and a sense of people without nationalist attachment to the territory of Palestine and turned it into a new national identity (the israeli national identity) with a strong nationalist link to the biblical land.

The american, Canadian and Israeli nationalisms are all absolutely real, they do exist, but they are the result of colonialism... they are the result of a violent act through which foreigners moved to a land they were not natives of without the consent of the indigenous population.

They are totally different from, let's say, russian, french and italian nationalisms that are the result of natives developing a sense of national identity in their own historical homelands .

Total nonsense.

Zionism started as a RESPONSE to the plight of native Jews for protection from the Damascus Affair and the following wave of Arab pogroms throughout the Caliphate.

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
Oh, so now the Palestinians are the "real Jews"! Their story keeps changing. First they were descended from the Canaanites, then the Philistines, and now they're Jews.

And they are right on all counts!!

Palestinians descend from Canaanites, Philistines, Jews and all the other biblical peoples who inhabited their historical homeland.

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
You never explained why the poster child for Palestinian "resistance", Shirley Temper, has blond hair and blue eyes. Or why other blond-haired "Palestinians" occasionally pop up in Tinmore's pictures. Or why I once conversed with a blond-haired Palestinian at the Tomb of Abraham in Hebron.

I will let the british poster, Challenger, answer your question about Ahed, aka, Shirley Temper LOL:

Jose wrote:
"Palestinians descend from Canaanites, Philistines, Jews and all the other biblical people who inhabited their historical homeland."
= = = = = = = =

Ria_Longhorn replies:

Almut Nebel's 2001 study, "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" found that, '[T]he Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews. According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the ARABIAN PENINSULA [emphasis mine], as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouins.'

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Palestine was invaded by a small number of Europeans during the Crusades and the Ottomans relocated to Palestine some people from european parts of the empire like Bosnia.

So every now and then a "crusader" or "bosnian" gene pops up and you have a blond, blue eyed Palestinian.

Big deal.

Palestine was invaded by a small number of Europeans during the Crusades and the Ottomans relocated to Palestine some people from european parts of the empire like Bosnia.

So every now and then a "crusader" or "bosnian" gene pops up and you have a blond, blue eyed Palestinian.

Big deal.

So, blond Suha Arafat, and the blue-eyed Amin al-Husseini are "bosnian". Got it.

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Originally posted by Shusha
Wow. Quite amazing, then, isn't it, that Jews with no nationalism created (actually reconstituted) an actual NATION. How can you possibly explain how the LACK of Jewish nationalism created a Jewish NATION? How do you explain that? What could possibly drive the Jewish people to do ALL THAT WORK for no reason?

I explain israeli nationalism in the exact same way I explain american and canadian nationalism.

The british colonists created American and Canadian nationalism...

Nobody in 17th century Britain had any emotional, national attachment to the north american landmass...

What created the real, not fictitious American and Canadian nationalisms was decades of european colonialism in North America.

The british colonial project in North America created both nationalisms.

Similarly there was no Jewish nationalism before the zionist movement got going.

Even in 1930 Jewish nationalism was still an exotic idea to most Jews as Uri himself pointed out.

ForeverYoung... listen to grandpa Avnery and learn that your own people (askhenazis as well as sefaradis and mizrahis) never had a nationalist attachment to Palestine:

MY FATHER was a Zionist. When he married my mother, a pretty young secretary, one of the wedding presents was a printed document stating that a tree had been planted in the name of the couple in Palestine.

At the time, the Zionists were a tiny minority among the Jews in Germany (and elsewhere). Most Jews thought that they were a bit crazy. A current joke had it that a Zionist was a Jew who gave money to a second Jew in order to send a third Jew to Palestine.

Why did my father become a Zionist? He certainly did not dream of going to Palestine himself.

So what about his Zionism? My father was a “Querkopf”, a contrarian. He did not like to run with the herd. It suited him to belong to a lonely little group. The Zionists.

​

So just like the british in North America, what created the israeli national identity was the Zionist colonization of Palestine...

The zionist colonial movement took a religious identity and a sense of people without nationalist attachment to the territory of Palestine and turned it into a new national identity (the israeli national identity) with a strong nationalist link to the biblical land.

The american, Canadian and Israeli nationalisms are all absolutely real, they do exist, but they are the result of colonialism... they are the result of a violent act through which foreigners moved to a land they were not natives of without the consent of the indigenous population.

They are totally different from, let's say, russian, french and italian nationalisms that are the result of natives developing a sense of national identity in their own historical homelands .

Twice a year on their holidays, the Jewish People in unison, say, "Next year in Jerusalem". (As a matter of fact, if you cup your ear ever so slightly, you'll hear it in a couple of days.)

During the season when rain was needed in Israel, the Jewish People, in whatever country they were, prayed for rain on their festival of Shmini Atzeret.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
Oh, so now the Palestinians are the "real Jews"! Their story keeps changing. First they were descended from the Canaanites, then the Philistines, and now they're Jews.

And they are right on all counts!!

Palestinians descend from Canaanites, Philistines, Jews and all the other biblical peoples who inhabited their historical homeland.

Originally posted by ForeverYoung436
You never explained why the poster child for Palestinian "resistance", Shirley Temper, has blond hair and blue eyes. Or why other blond-haired "Palestinians" occasionally pop up in Tinmore's pictures. Or why I once conversed with a blond-haired Palestinian at the Tomb of Abraham in Hebron.

I will let the british poster, Challenger, answer your question about Ahed, aka, Shirley Temper LOL:

Jose wrote:
"Palestinians descend from Canaanites, Philistines, Jews and all the other biblical people who inhabited their historical homeland."
= = = = = = = =

Ria_Longhorn replies:

Almut Nebel's 2001 study, "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" found that, '[T]he Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews. According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the ARABIAN PENINSULA [emphasis mine], as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouins.'

Sherri, a rabid anti-Semite, once mistakenly posted a document here from the British, from the 1920's, that said "Palestine's population is constantly being replenished by nomads from the Arabian peninsula." Canaanites my foot! Also, many Arabs from the region flocked to what was then known as Palestine because of the new job opportunities created by the Zionist Jews, after the Jews had drained the swamps and built new cities like Tel-Aviv.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Originally posted by Shusha
Wow. Quite amazing, then, isn't it, that Jews with no nationalism created (actually reconstituted) an actual NATION. How can you possibly explain how the LACK of Jewish nationalism created a Jewish NATION? How do you explain that? What could possibly drive the Jewish people to do ALL THAT WORK for no reason?

I explain israeli nationalism in the exact same way I explain american and canadian nationalism.

The british colonists created American and Canadian nationalism...

Nobody in 17th century Britain had any emotional, national attachment to the north american landmass...

What created the real, not fictitious American and Canadian nationalisms was decades of european colonialism in North America.

The british colonial project in North America created both nationalisms.

Similarly there was no Jewish nationalism before the zionist movement got going.

Even in 1930 Jewish nationalism was still an exotic idea to most Jews as Uri himself pointed out.

ForeverYoung... listen to grandpa Avnery and learn that your own people (askhenazis as well as sefaradis and mizrahis) never had a nationalist attachment to Palestine:

MY FATHER was a Zionist. When he married my mother, a pretty young secretary, one of the wedding presents was a printed document stating that a tree had been planted in the name of the couple in Palestine.

At the time, the Zionists were a tiny minority among the Jews in Germany (and elsewhere). Most Jews thought that they were a bit crazy. A current joke had it that a Zionist was a Jew who gave money to a second Jew in order to send a third Jew to Palestine.

Why did my father become a Zionist? He certainly did not dream of going to Palestine himself.

So what about his Zionism? My father was a “Querkopf”, a contrarian. He did not like to run with the herd. It suited him to belong to a lonely little group. The Zionists.

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So just like the british in North America, what created the israeli national identity was the Zionist colonization of Palestine...

The zionist colonial movement took a religious identity and a sense of people without nationalist attachment to the territory of Palestine and turned it into a new national identity (the israeli national identity) with a strong nationalist link to the biblical land.

The american, Canadian and Israeli nationalisms are all absolutely real, they do exist, but they are the result of colonialism... they are the result of a violent act through which foreigners moved to a land they were not natives of without the consent of the indigenous population.

They are totally different from, let's say, russian, french and italian nationalisms that are the result of natives developing a sense of national identity in their own historical homelands .

Twice a year on their holidays, the Jewish People in unison, say, "Next year in Jerusalem". (As a matter of fact, if you cup your ear ever so slightly, you'll hear it in a couple of days.)

During the season when rain was needed in Israel, the Jewish People, in whatever country they were, prayed for rain on their festival of Shmini Atzeret.

Yes, in addition to scores of other prayers and customs related to the Land of Israel.