Annexing West Bank

[Coyote]

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Late edit: in furtherance of the post by Shusha, above, a show of hands please. Who expects that the “Pal’istanians” would be willing and able to abide by the UN declaration?

While I prefer that PF Tinmore not feel the need to dump YouTube videos into the thread, there are some obvious problems with implementation of the goals in the UN declaration.

“Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,”

With regard to the section above, can anyone identify an Islamic majority nation on the planet where those values as noted are practiced?

Anybody?

Principles of equal rights, respect for rule of law and observance of human rights are not the principles of Islamist sharia.

That is precisely why I don't understand how the Muslims became the darlings of liberals. Muslims seem to go against everything liberals believe in, such as equal rights for all, including women and gay ppl. Yet liberals love them and always champion their cause. An oxymoron.

Maybe, becsuse like Jews and Christians they arent all the same. Why does the right feel it is so importent to demonize them?

Let me point out fundamentalist sects, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and even Jews, suck for women and rights.

I am a Jew and my wife has the same rights as I do...more if you ask her. Plus we can leave the religion at any time with zero repercussions. Don’t conflate Judaism with Islam. Ever.

On the other hand, a Hasidic Jewish woman follows many of the same social strictures as a conservative Muslim woman. She must pray seoerateky, cover her limbs and hair, ride in th3 back of the bus, submit to the man, and if she were to leave or marry outside her faith she would be caste out of her community.

There is a lot of variety within a faith that you ignore.

 

[Coyote]

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Late edit: in furtherance of the post by Shusha, above, a show of hands please. Who expects that the “Pal’istanians” would be willing and able to abide by the UN declaration?

While I prefer that PF Tinmore not feel the need to dump YouTube videos into the thread, there are some obvious problems with implementation of the goals in the UN declaration.

“Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,”

With regard to the section above, can anyone identify an Islamic majority nation on the planet where those values as noted are practiced?

Anybody?

Principles of equal rights, respect for rule of law and observance of human rights are not the principles of Islamist sharia.

That is precisely why I don't understand how the Muslims became the darlings of liberals. Muslims seem to go against everything liberals believe in, such as equal rights for all, including women and gay ppl. Yet liberals love them and always champion their cause. An oxymoron.

They aren't the darlings of all liberals, at least those still capable of critical thinking. But they became a 'protected class' of much/most of the liberal progressive movement for no other reason than they oppose Israel, as do most progressives, and modern American conservatives oppose much of what Islam preaches and practices and thinks we should protect ourselves against the intentions of Islamic radicals and terrorists. And apparently whatever conservatives believe must by default be opposed by the liberal progressive movement.

Conservatives demonize Islam plain and simple lumping all in one stereotype.

Do you honestly believe that? How many of us even on this forum do that? I don't lump you in with the batshit crazy, looney tune component of progressivism. Why would I lump all of Islam in with the terrorist, subversive element of it? Why would anybody?

Whenever we go to automatic guilt by association, we become part of the problem and join the ranks of the intolerant and unjust that are the problem.

You are right and by far a better person than I at the moment. I am fed up.

 

[Slyhunter]

Time for Israel to remove the kid gloves and get dirty.

 

[Coyote]

No...I do not think existing ones should be dismantled.

Right. We agree. So, they will end up being under Israeli control, or maybe, eventually if the Arab Palestinians get their shit together, under Palestinian control. We agree that either of these scenarios are fine, right? Its okay for Jews to live in Palestine, just like its okay for Arabs to live in Israel, right?

The problem, as I see it, is the safety of both the Arabs in Israel and the Jews in Palestine. I don't believe that the Arab Palestinians are even close to wanting equality and safety for Jews, let alone being committed enough to achieve it. BUT I believe Israel is perfectly capable of ensuring safety and full equality for their Arabs.

It just makes so much more sense for Israel to just exert full sovereignty over the Jewish "settlements" and some of the Arab ones. Keeping in mind, I'm arguing for Palestine to be left with a contiguous area.

I largely agree with all your points except that while Israel is capable of ensuring safety and full equality for their Arabs I question whether they actually will given the current politics.

So while annexation might end up being for the best a lot depends on how it is handled.

 

[Coyote]

It is complex but likely you and I see it the same way. They need to hold elections, choose new leadership, and cease the violence.

Israel can't do anything about any of these things. The Arab Palestinians have to. And that was my point. Everyone keeps talking about how Israel must make peace. She can't. Not until Palestinians have at least done the three things listed above.

Yes. Israel can do something. They can cease the provocative settlement building, though in reality that horse is long gone. But Israel has some responsibility there as well.

 

[Coyote]

Here is the thing Shusha. We both strongly disagree on settlements and their impact on the peace process and we have gone down that road many times so I doubt we will change each others minds.

No...I do not think existing ones should be dismantled. And you forget...Jews will also have to accept Moooooslims living amongst them as well. How many Arab settlements are there in Area C?

Depends on where you get your stats, and how you count them, but, in all of Area C? About 250 Arab settlements.

Settlements or previously existing villages? Can you provide a link?

 

[Shusha]

Here is the thing Shusha. We both strongly disagree on settlements and their impact on the peace process and we have gone down that road many times so I doubt we will change each others minds.

No...I do not think existing ones should be dismantled. And you forget...Jews will also have to accept Moooooslims living amongst them as well. How many Arab settlements are there in Area C?

Depends on where you get your stats, and how you count them, but, in all of Area C? About 250 Arab settlements.

Settlements or previously existing villages? Can you provide a link?

Define the difference between a settlement and a previously existing village. Objectively.

 

[Shusha]

It is complex but likely you and I see it the same way. They need to hold elections, choose new leadership, and cease the violence.

Israel can't do anything about any of these things. The Arab Palestinians have to. And that was my point. Everyone keeps talking about how Israel must make peace. She can't. Not until Palestinians have at least done the three things listed above.

Yes. Israel can do something. They can cease the provocative settlement building, though in reality that horse is long gone. But Israel has some responsibility there as well.

In other words, there would be peace if Israel just deliberately and indefinitely held territory free of Jews and Israelis in case another Arab state arises, but Israel is not permitted to declare where that territory is?

 

[Shusha]

No...I do not think existing ones should be dismantled.

Right. We agree. So, they will end up being under Israeli control, or maybe, eventually if the Arab Palestinians get their shit together, under Palestinian control. We agree that either of these scenarios are fine, right? Its okay for Jews to live in Palestine, just like its okay for Arabs to live in Israel, right?

The problem, as I see it, is the safety of both the Arabs in Israel and the Jews in Palestine. I don't believe that the Arab Palestinians are even close to wanting equality and safety for Jews, let alone being committed enough to achieve it. BUT I believe Israel is perfectly capable of ensuring safety and full equality for their Arabs.

It just makes so much more sense for Israel to just exert full sovereignty over the Jewish "settlements" and some of the Arab ones. Keeping in mind, I'm arguing for Palestine to be left with a contiguous area.

I largely agree with all your points except that while Israel is capable of ensuring safety and full equality for their Arabs I question whether they actually will given the current politics.

So while annexation might end up being for the best a lot depends on how it is handled.

My suggestion for handling it, and I'm sure Israel is in the same page, is to give citizenship to all Palestinians who choose to remain. Seems the only right way to do things. It's not going to eliminate discrimination. But it will give them equality.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

Remembering that both Judaism and Christianity have their roots as Abrahmic in common. Thus much of the basic foundations are similar.

So why the hell is it that with these religions and Christianity and Judaism in their conservative sects, women are most decidedly not equal?

(COMMENT)

Liberation theology leads to Feminist theologians start changing biblical traditions that affect all three Abrahamic Religions. It not only had an impact on religious matters but other sciences as well, Both Hypatia of Alexandria and Emilie du Chatelet → 13th centuries later, fell in against educated females with an opinion and a voice.

It is my opinion that women in the 20th Century, are just coming of age. From the time of Marie Curie, to the present day Michelle Haupt has really come of age in the last two centuries in science and well as the Ordination of women deacons, priests and bishops are relatively new in the history of humanity.

The similarities in the three Abrahamic Religions are advancing with Islam lagging far, far, behind. And this lag is representative of the kind and type of critical thinking that creates barriers in political and philosophical understanding (including the recognition of women) Generally speaking, the closer any particular sect is to fundamentalism or application of following the 6th Century Islam, the more likely the women are relegated to non-leadership roles.

Just my thought as a layman on the subject.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Late edit: in furtherance of the post by Shusha, above, a show of hands please. Who expects that the “Pal’istanians” would be willing and able to abide by the UN declaration?

While I prefer that PF Tinmore not feel the need to dump YouTube videos into the thread, there are some obvious problems with implementation of the goals in the UN declaration.

“Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,”

With regard to the section above, can anyone identify an Islamic majority nation on the planet where those values as noted are practiced?

Anybody?

Principles of equal rights, respect for rule of law and observance of human rights are not the principles of Islamist sharia.

That is precisely why I don't understand how the Muslims became the darlings of liberals. Muslims seem to go against everything liberals believe in, such as equal rights for all, including women and gay ppl. Yet liberals love them and always champion their cause. An oxymoron.

Maybe, becsuse like Jews and Christians they arent all the same. Why does the right feel it is so importent to demonize them?

Let me point out fundamentalist sects, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and even Jews, suck for women and rights.

I am a Jew and my wife has the same rights as I do...more if you ask her. Plus we can leave the religion at any time with zero repercussions. Don’t conflate Judaism with Islam. Ever.

Or the vast majority of Christians for that matter. And I don't recall any Hindu group EVER referring to the USA as the 'great satan' and plotting to destroy as many of us as possible, all of us if they could. And just as Christian and Jews profess their faith voluntarily and observe it voluntarily however unorthodox or traditional as they be, so do Hindus. Coincidentally, Hindu 'scriptures' pronounce men and women to be equals.

All the primary religions are nowhere near as restrictive and violent/punishing as is much of Islam. And none of them require anything remotely close to Sharia Law.

To say that all or even most Muslims are violent, hateful, terrorist, or dangerous is foolish. But to deny that more than a few of them are all of that and worse is much more foolish.

I don’t think you know much about Hinduism if you think they are no where near as restrictive, violent or punishing as Islam. For Christianity it is mostly historic, but it was there. In Islam, like Christianity conversion is not supposed to be by force and like Christianity it often was. I also question what you think Sharia is? For most Muslims it is Halal, prayer, charity, not the criminal code. How Sharia is observed differs widely across cultures. Hindu women are certainly not equal, in many parts of India they must still cover their heads. Child marriages are endemic (iIndia and Nepal have amongst the highest rates) and widows are treated abysmally. The British banned the barbaric practice of Suti thigh it still occasionally occurs, where the widow is burned on the funeral pyre of her husband. Of course if the wife dies first there was no expectation that the man would join her. Woman have been disfigured by acid for inappropriate relations, ruining the families honor, not producing a boy child, but no one seems to notice. The caste system is alive and well keeping millions of people stuck in perpetual poverty at the mercy of higher caste cruelties. High caste men feel it is their right to rape low caste women who are then “ruined” for marriage. That is Hinduism along with the pageantry and exotic gods.

Hinduism states men and women are equal? Oddly, so does Islam.

Equality of Men and Women in Submission (Islam)

So why the hell is it that with these religions and Christianity and Judaism in their conservative sects, women are most decidedly not equal?

Coyote enough of this BS. There are 16 mil Jews. There are 1.8bn Muslims if only 1% is radical and Pew says its closer to 50%, but if only 1% then there are 18 million radicals. Even Bill Liberal Maher sees this. You’re either trolling or not opening your eyes. When have Hindus or Jews committed an act of Terror in the US? And you have yet to name one mostly Islamic country that is not a humanitarian nightmare.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Late edit: in furtherance of the post by Shusha, above, a show of hands please. Who expects that the “Pal’istanians” would be willing and able to abide by the UN declaration?

While I prefer that PF Tinmore not feel the need to dump YouTube videos into the thread, there are some obvious problems with implementation of the goals in the UN declaration.

“Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,”

With regard to the section above, can anyone identify an Islamic majority nation on the planet where those values as noted are practiced?

Anybody?

Principles of equal rights, respect for rule of law and observance of human rights are not the principles of Islamist sharia.

That is precisely why I don't understand how the Muslims became the darlings of liberals. Muslims seem to go against everything liberals believe in, such as equal rights for all, including women and gay ppl. Yet liberals love them and always champion their cause. An oxymoron.

Maybe, becsuse like Jews and Christians they arent all the same. Why does the right feel it is so importent to demonize them?

Let me point out fundamentalist sects, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and even Jews, suck for women and rights.

I am a Jew and my wife has the same rights as I do...more if you ask her. Plus we can leave the religion at any time with zero repercussions. Don’t conflate Judaism with Islam. Ever.

On the other hand, a Hasidic Jewish woman follows many of the same social strictures as a conservative Muslim woman. She must pray seoerateky, cover her limbs and hair, ride in th3 back of the bus, submit to the man, and if she were to leave or marry outside her faith she would be caste out of her community.

There is a lot of variety within a faith that you ignore.

When was the last Hasidic Jewish bombing in the US? Every Mostly Muslim nation is a nightmare for women, gays and apostates. Not so in Israel. Keep trying.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Late edit: in furtherance of the post by Shusha, above, a show of hands please. Who expects that the “Pal’istanians” would be willing and able to abide by the UN declaration?

While I prefer that PF Tinmore not feel the need to dump YouTube videos into the thread, there are some obvious problems with implementation of the goals in the UN declaration.

“Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,”

With regard to the section above, can anyone identify an Islamic majority nation on the planet where those values as noted are practiced?

Anybody?

Principles of equal rights, respect for rule of law and observance of human rights are not the principles of Islamist sharia.

That is precisely why I don't understand how the Muslims became the darlings of liberals. Muslims seem to go against everything liberals believe in, such as equal rights for all, including women and gay ppl. Yet liberals love them and always champion their cause. An oxymoron.

Maybe, becsuse like Jews and Christians they arent all the same. Why does the right feel it is so importent to demonize them?

Let me point out fundamentalist sects, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and even Jews, suck for women and rights.

I am a Jew and my wife has the same rights as I do...more if you ask her. Plus we can leave the religion at any time with zero repercussions. Don’t conflate Judaism with Islam. Ever.

On the other hand, a Hasidic Jewish woman follows many of the same social strictures as a conservative Muslim woman. She must pray seoerateky, cover her limbs and hair, ride in th3 back of the bus, submit to the man, and if she were to leave or marry outside her faith she would be caste out of her community.

There is a lot of variety within a faith that you ignore.

 

[Ropey]

Tehillim - Psalms

 

[Ropey]

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

"There are no secrets to success.
It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure."
Colin Powell
​

Read more at: Search Results

Right now, the face or → how we see and interpret the cultural image of the Arab Palestinian (of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip) is characterized (nation-state personality) as a belligerent Arab Subculture with a very deep propensity for violence. Many people, just on hearing the name "Palestinian" are struck by an uneasiness. For many people conjures a mental picture. In your computer, query the name "Palestinian" and ask for images.

Query for Images - down to "Palestinian Terrorist" and you will see:

◈ Palestinian Terrorist •​

◈ HAMAS •​

◈ FATAH •
​

That is an interesting statement, what do you mean by it?

(COMMENT)

Everyone understands that to change the image of the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip; requires a sincere (and maybe a very expensive) effort from both Israel and the Palestinians. And being that the Israelis are much higher on the scale for Human Development, initially (at least - probably a little longer) they will have to commit to the Lions share of the effort (Posting #148).

Most Respectfully,
R

Your usual smear piece.

Your hurt feelings regarding Israel being higher on the human development index vs. Arabs-Moslems in the disputed territories is not a smear. Don’t let your hurt feelings get in the way of cutting and pasting your usual slogans.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

Conquest is not theft. So you believe the Colonists
Stole the US? Only solution is war and winner take all IMO.

They did, but back then conquest was not illegal. There was no international law. Conquest was illegal when Israel conquered Palestine.

Before 1948 the colonies were funded by foreign money. Israel conquered a country with a fully functioning economy. Israel stole the entire country including robbing the banks. Since then, Israel continues to live off of foreign money.

 

[Andylusion]

On Saturday, Netanyahu said he would annex the West Bank (or Judea and Samaria, as they are known in the Bible) to Israel if he would be re-elected Prime Minister on Tuesday. Do y'all think that this is a good idea?

Yes absolutely. Sooner the better.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I have Asked Tinmore for his solution like 10x and he always dodges. And he will again. He just likes to complain.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Actually it is quite specific as to what should be done.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.​

 

[rylah]

RE: Annexing West Bank
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

"There are no secrets to success.
It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure."
Colin Powell
​

Read more at: Search Results

Right now, the face or → how we see and interpret the cultural image of the Arab Palestinian (of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip) is characterized (nation-state personality) as a belligerent Arab Subculture with a very deep propensity for violence. Many people, just on hearing the name "Palestinian" are struck by an uneasiness. For many people conjures a mental picture. In your computer, query the name "Palestinian" and ask for images.

Query for Images - down to "Palestinian Terrorist" and you will see:

◈ Palestinian Terrorist •​

◈ HAMAS •​

◈ FATAH •
​

(COMMENT)

Everyone understands that to change the image of the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip; requires a sincere (and maybe a very expensive) effort from both Israel and the Palestinians. And being that the Israelis are much higher on the scale for Human Development, initially (at least - probably a little longer) they will have to commit to the Lions share of the effort (Posting #148).

Most Respectfully,
R

Your usual smear piece.

Your hurt feelings regarding Israel being higher on the human development index vs. Arabs-Moslems in the disputed territories is not a smear. Don’t let your hurt feelings get in the way of cutting and pasting your usual slogans.

With what Israel has stolen and mooched, Haiti would be a prosperous country.

Conquest is not theft. So you believe the Colonists
Stole the US? Only solution is war and winner take all IMO.

They did, but back then conquest was not illegal. There was no international law. Conquest was illegal when Israel conquered Palestine.

Before 1948 the colonies were funded by foreign money. Israel conquered a country with a fully functioning economy. Israel stole the entire country including robbing the banks. Since then, Israel continues to live off of foreign money.

There was no international law?
Try lesser lies, maybe You'll have one foot left to stand on.

Cannot conquer what is rightfully Your, only liberate it.
Especially cannot conquer an non-existent country
The economy was wholly a fruit of the Zionist enterprise
The banks as well belonged to them.
No foreign aid to Israel exceeds 10% of its economy, while aid to Your jihadi brides exceeds the budget to rebuild the whole of Europe once again.

Your Jihadi impotents who's only innovation is children's suicide bomb vests,
are slime of the earth and the biggest welfare frauds in history.

 

[rylah]

I have Asked Tinmore for his solution like 10x and he always dodges. And he will again. He just likes to complain.

The United Nations and Decolonization - Declaration

Okay, so you "believe" in this. I get it. The problem is that it doesn't give any specifics about what should be done practically.

Actually it is quite specific as to what should be done.

1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.

2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.

4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.​

To be "decolonized" the Jihadi frauds have to at least learn how to pronounce the name of the land.
Not to mention stop self identifying as the foreign invaders of the Caliphate.

Come back when You have that fixed.