ancient history or religion

[RAGE]

I love ancient history, I just like to know stuff about this and that.

But when I think about studies on Egypt or Greek mythology, doesn't that consist of studying religion?

Outside of the daily lives of the egyptians everything they did pretty much pertained to the worship of gods.
Greek mytology is purely the study of Gods.
In my book thats religion.
If we do not speak of the bible to which every good historian and archeologist keeps close at hand because of its accuracy on historical events how could we possibly allow the study or mention of these other religions?

 

[KarlMarx]

I love ancient history, I just like to know stuff about this and that.

But when I think about studies on Egypt or Greek mythology, doesn't that consist of studying religion?

Outside of the daily lives of the egyptians everything they did pretty much pertained to the worship of gods.
Greek mytology is purely the study of Gods.
In my book thats religion.
If we do not speak of the bible to which every good historian and archeologist keeps close at hand because of its accuracy on historical events how could we possibly allow the study or mention of these other religions?

I'm not certain where you're going with this. Are you referring to the "separation of church and state" issue?

 

[RAGE]

yes as a matter of fact I am, what I would like to bring into discussion is educational institution to include public schools.
If we remove christian identity or even religious eduction, what exactly is that?
Can we remove one without removing the other in its true form of the deffinition?


This is something I normally discuss on an extra board but I am sure it will fit in.
If I think about it, you cant make anyone go to church or even believe in a religion, Especially in this country.
Our constituion calls for seperation of church and state. I support that notion because not all churches tend to agree with the other nor does any specific religion.

I am a simple christian. I have read the bible but I dont go to a church. That's just not for me in that sence. Especially when some preachers and pastors seem to have their own agenda or their own interpetations of the bible.

Having said that, there are some things that puzzle me.
If we remove all religion from public schools and even identity charms such as crossed and signs of the fish. Shouldn't that same rule aplly to all religions?

Islam, Judaism buddism and even hari chrishnas?
If teachers are being repremanded for wearing a pair of Cross earrings or students being suspended for wearing t-shirts that say I believe? shouldn't muslims and Jews be removed from the school as well for wearing certain Garbs and headgear?

 

[no1tovote4]

I love ancient history, I just like to know stuff about this and that.

But when I think about studies on Egypt or Greek mythology, doesn't that consist of studying religion?

Outside of the daily lives of the egyptians everything they did pretty much pertained to the worship of gods.
Greek mytology is purely the study of Gods.
In my book thats religion.
If we do not speak of the bible to which every good historian and archeologist keeps close at hand because of its accuracy on historical events how could we possibly allow the study or mention of these other religions?

There are Bible Lit courses offered at the HS level. The assumption would be that you could not study the Bible at all in Public schools but you would be wrong. Just as with Greek and Roman Mythology, the Bible is often a course one can take.

 

[RAGE]

Fair enough on that issue for now but lets go a step further

I am a simple christian. I have read the bible but I dont go to a church. That's just not for me in that sence. Especially when some preachers and pastors seem to have their own agenda or their own interpetations of the bible.

Having said that, there are some things that puzzle me.
If we remove all religion from public schools and even identity charms such as crossed and signs of the fish. Shouldn't that same rule aplly to all religions?

Islam, Judaism buddism and even hari chrishnas?
If teachers are being repremanded for wearing a pair of Cross earrings or students being suspended for wearing t-shirts that say I believe? shouldn't muslims and Jews be removed from the school as well for wearing certain Garbs and headgear?

Whats your opinion here?

 

[MissileMan]

I love ancient history, I just like to know stuff about this and that.

But when I think about studies on Egypt or Greek mythology, doesn't that consist of studying religion?

Outside of the daily lives of the egyptians everything they did pretty much pertained to the worship of gods.
Greek mytology is purely the study of Gods.
In my book thats religion.
If we do not speak of the bible to which every good historian and archeologist keeps close at hand because of its accuracy on historical events how could we possibly allow the study or mention of these other religions?

Egyptian and Greek mythology are taught as enhancements to the study of ancient Egyptian and Greek history. These topics are relevant based on Greek and Egyptian contributions to the civilization of mankind. Since there's no argument that ancient Christians made significant contributions as well, how about offering a course in ancient Christian history also? The question is, how long will it take your kids to make the parallel between Greek mythology and Christian mythology?

 

[no1tovote4]

Fair enough on that issue for now but lets go a step further

I am a simple christian. I have read the bible but I dont go to a church. That's just not for me in that sence. Especially when some preachers and pastors seem to have their own agenda or their own interpetations of the bible.

Having said that, there are some things that puzzle me.
If we remove all religion from public schools and even identity charms such as crossed and signs of the fish. Shouldn't that same rule aplly to all religions?

Islam, Judaism buddism and even hari chrishnas?
If teachers are being repremanded for wearing a pair of Cross earrings or students being suspended for wearing t-shirts that say I believe? shouldn't muslims and Jews be removed from the school as well for wearing certain Garbs and headgear?

Whats your opinion here?

In France they outlawed such things in their schools as they have no gaurantee that they can freely express their religion in their public lives.

However in the US we have the right to free expression of our religion, it is comprised in the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

(the bold is of course mine)

My children will be allowed to wear Buddhist symbols if they wish, your children will be allowed to wear Christian symbolism. Because of the gaurantee that we have the right to that freedom of expression, there can be no laws that would remove this symbology from the schools.

Classes in religion are a large part of HS classes that one can take, their symbolism and the knowledge can be invaluable within our society so that one can understand the differences that compromise our diverse culture. To remove that settles Secular Humanism as the official religion of the US and would again violate the 1st Amendment.

The 1st Amendment did not separate people from their religion when they become part of the Government and it is expected that they would use their moral structures and religion in their public as well as private life. They also have a right to freedom of expression for their religion.

 

[Merlin]

Our constituion calls for seperation of church and state.

I disagree with you on this statement. There is nothing in "my" Constitution about separation of Church and State.

 

[Johnney]

yes as a matter of fact I am, what I would like to bring into discussion is educational institution to include public schools.
If we remove christian identity or even religious eduction, what exactly is that?
Can we remove one without removing the other in its true form of the deffinition?

yes we can. its called a private school. religion has no place in school.
if you want your child to be taught about the bible or whatever, enroll him/ her in a christian, or jewish, or catholic school.

This is something I normally discuss on an extra board but I am sure it will fit in.
If I think about it, you cant make anyone go to church or even believe in a religion, Especially in this country.
Our constituion calls for seperation of church and state. I support that notion because not all churches tend to agree with the other nor does any specific religion.

there would be a reason for this. no one wants the church to run the government, or the government to run the church. that would be a goat rope either way.

I am a simple christian. I have read the bible but I dont go to a church. That's just not for me in that sence. Especially when some preachers and pastors seem to have their own agenda or their own interpetations of the bible.

wouldnt know about that. i have no use for religion

Having said that, there are some things that puzzle me.
If we remove all religion from public schools and even identity charms such as crossed and signs of the fish. Shouldn't that same rule aplly to all religions?

Islam, Judaism buddism and even hari chrishnas?
If teachers are being repremanded for wearing a pair of Cross earrings or students being suspended for wearing t-shirts that say I believe? shouldn't muslims and Jews be removed from the school as well for wearing certain Garbs and headgear?

yes it should. whats good for one religion needs to be good for all of them.

 

[5stringJeff]

Rage, I'm taking your post to mean, can we teach about religion as a factor in history? My answer is an overwhelming yes. All religions have played a large part in both regional and world histories, and it would be unwise to teach the youth of America about history without including such a major component of history.
As to wearing religious articles in school, I think no1tovote4 nailed it.

 

[Johnney]

Because of the gaurantee that we have the right to that freedom of expression, there can be no laws that would remove this symbology from the schools.

arent schools state institutions?
and dont get me wrong on this, im not trying to start a debate about religion in schools or whatever. im jsut want to get clarification on something.
anyway

if schools are state, woudnt it stand that they would kind of make the rules for dress code?
and on the other hand, i know they dont teach religion in public schools, or schedule religion classes, but whats stopping the studens from doing it on their own time? as long as its not sanctioned by the school.

 

[no1tovote4]

arent schools state institutions?
and dont get me wrong on this, im not trying to start a debate about religion in schools or whatever. im jsut want to get clarification on something.
anyway

if schools are state, woudnt it stand that they would kind of make the rules for dress code?
and on the other hand, i know they dont teach religion in public schools, or schedule religion classes, but whats stopping the studens from doing it on their own time? as long as its not sanctioned by the school.

States cannot make laws that violate the US Constitution. Regardless of schools being a state institution they cannot make laws that violate the 1st Amendment. Therefore when schools attempt to remove that symbology they invariably lose in court.

 

[Johnney]

personally i think every school should have a strict dress code. gets pretty sickening to see the kids with 420 and some form of pimp on their clothes coming out of and going into school. imo freedom of expression is bullshit when it comes to school. they are there to learn to tell the world they are for whatever religion, for drugs, or for pimping. thats where the problem is. they need to stop trying to make a "statement" about who they are or what they stand for.
so what if someone wore a shirt that said i fucked your mother? thats expressing yourself

 

[dilloduck]

personally i think every school should have a strict dress code. gets pretty sickening to see the kids with 420 and some form of pimp on their clothes coming out of and going into school. imo freedom of expression is bullshit when it comes to school. they are there to learn to tell the world they are for whatever religion, for drugs, or for pimping. thats where the problem is. they need to stop trying to make a "statement" about who they are or what they stand for.
so what if someone wore a shirt that said i fucked your mother? thats expressing yourself

I'd have to express myself by beating the hell out you for screwing a 77 year old lady ! :tng:

 

[no1tovote4]

personally i think every school should have a strict dress code. gets pretty sickening to see the kids with 420 and some form of pimp on their clothes coming out of and going into school. imo freedom of expression is bullshit when it comes to school. they are there to learn to tell the world they are for whatever religion, for drugs, or for pimping. thats where the problem is. they need to stop trying to make a "statement" about who they are or what they stand for.
so what if someone wore a shirt that said i fucked your mother? thats expressing yourself

Okay, that is free speech a different right gauranteed by the same Amendment. Freedom of Expression covers your religion, not 420 T-Shirts. 420 T-Shirts are covered by Freedom of Speech. They may be inconvenient at times but those rights are important and should be jealously safeguarded, mostly by liberal usage of the 2nd Amendment. :firing:

 

[Johnney]

I'd have to express myself by beating the hell out you for screwing a 77 year old lady ! :tng:

thats what im saying though. one persons expression is another persons anoyance. i personally could care less what faith anyone belongs.

 

[Johnney]

Okay, that is free speech a different right gauranteed by the same Amendment. Freedom of Expression covers your religion, not 420 T-Shirts. 420 T-Shirts are covered by Freedom of Speech. They may be inconvenient at times but those rights are important and should be jealously safeguarded, mostly by liberal usage of the 2nd Amendment. :firing:

imo i think we need to trim some of the fat off the constitution for minors. like i said, they are are school to <emp>learn</emp> not to make statements or declairations

 

[no1tovote4]

imo i think we need to trim some of the fat off the constitution for minors. like i said, they are are school to <emp>learn</emp> not to make statements or declairations

The parents have a right to curtail this, not the schools. That is where you and I diverge. While I think that 420 T-Shirts are inane (nothing but targets for the cops to harrass you) they have every right to wear them. It is the parents that have a right to tell them to take the damn thing off, not the legislature or the schools. I guarantee that my child would not be wearing one of these while walking out the door of my house.

 

[Johnney]

The parents have a right to curtail this, not the schools. That is where you and I diverge. While I think that 420 T-Shirts are inane (nothing but targets for the cops to harrass you) they have every right to wear them. It is the parents that have a right to tell them to take the damn thing off, not the legislature or the schools. I guarantee that my child would not be wearing one of these while walking out the door of my house.

the schools can tell them to turn it inside out or hide it. regardless what kids think there is a dress code, no matter how slim it is. if i was teaching and a student came in with one of thsoe shirts or appearl on, they would be leaving my class.

 

[no1tovote4]

the schools can tell them to turn it inside out or hide it. regardless what kids think there is a dress code, no matter how slim it is. if i was teaching and a student came in with one of thsoe shirts or appearl on, they would be leaving my class.

I would probably save that for apparel that actually interrupted my class. Some guy in a 420 shirt is relatively harmless. Now a "F**K the USA" shirt would get my goat and would probably cause a stir in the classroom. At that point they would have to go and turn the thing inside out or simply leave the room.

If there was no disturbance I would not be likely to remove them regardless of whether I agreed or not.