Ancient archaeological site destroys our current notion of "history"

[CrusaderFrank]

I thought I knew about anomalies and archaeological sites but what I saw last night on the History channel floored me.

Located near Tiauanco, which is mysterious enough in itself, is a site know as Puma Punku. The stones weigh up to 400 tons and are cut with precision that is far beyond the capabilities of the Geico Caveman.

Again, another civilization that built monolithic structures that show a total disregard for gravity.

The site lays in ruins so it's anyone's guess how old it is. 15,000 years not being unreasonable.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AABPXvwevVA]YouTube - Great Pyramids vs Puma Punku[/ame]

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I don't necessarily believe the "Ancient Astronaut" theory, I happen to believe that human civilization rose and fell several times before present and this is incontrovertible proof of that

 

[Old Rocks]

I looked at several sites, and the only one that I saw that dated the structure had it dated at 500 AD. Since it seems to be a wharf of some sort, dating the time that it would have been on the lake shore would provide a aproximate date for the structure. Looking at some of the pictures, I noted depressions in the stones where they would have set on top of each other much like those at the Partheon. Form and function. As far as the weight of the stones, there are many megalithic structures in the world that have stones of this size. But only a few where the finish is this nice.

That area of Bolivia is extremely geologically active, many large earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions. There should be some associated ash falls that would provide a date for this structure.

Thank you for posting this information, this is a structure that I was not previously aware of.

 

[sparky]

i watch the HC and think, 'gee, we're a race with amnesia', but lately i think also muchenhousers......~S~

 

[editec]

New evidence comes to light and sometimes it changes history.

Happens all the time, no big deal. But changing history dramatically requires dramatic proof, too.

Sadly I cannot listen to this video to hear what your talking about.

One thing I'm fairly certain of thanks to reading a lot of history..there's still a lot we don't know or fully understand, especially about ancient history.

Civlizations have come and gone over the last 6,000 years or so.

They sprang up, they fourished, they died.

Some of them left behind monumental evidence of their greatness.

Some of them seem to have done things that, based on what we think we know about them, we cannot fully understand.

Nothing that I have seen or read to date about those ancient civilizations proves that they were in contract with alien races from outer space, but I'm open to any evidence any of you can bring us that suggests that might be the case.

While I think that highly unlikely, I'd be less than an honest academic if I dismissed the possibility out of hand.

Show us the evidence, that's all any honest scholar can ask when such theories are advanced.

 

[Old Rocks]

I have seen much made of the fact that in these structures, expecially those with astronomical alignment, seem to be aligned to a period over 15,000 years ago, but all other evidence points to a period no older than 500 BC. This is a geologically active area. Here in Oregon, there are large areas, thousands of square miles large, that have been twisted a measureable amount in historical times. Had there been megalithic structures in these areas, they would indicate a far differant time than when they were when they were built. Don't know the geology of that particular area, other than it is a very active subduction zone, and very active.

 

[Old Rocks]

One other point. While many of the sites that I went had some really far out there claims, and a considerable lack of scientific discipline, they had some good pictures. And I appreciate that.

 

[Old Rocks]

deformation • fault slip • geodynamics • GPS • tectonics • western US
ABSTRACT
We interpret Global Positioning System (GPS) measurements in the northwestern United States and adjacent parts of western Canada to describe relative motions of crustal blocks, locking on faults and permanent deformation associated with convergence between the Juan de Fuca and North American plates. To estimate angular velocities of the oceanic Juan de Fuca and Explorer plates and several continental crustal blocks, we invert the GPS velocities together with seafloor spreading rates, earthquake slip vector azimuths and fault slip azimuths and rates. We also determine the degree to which faults are either creeping aseismically or, alternatively, locked on the block-bounding faults. The Cascadia subduction thrust is locked mainly offshore, except in central Oregon, where locking extends inland. Most of Oregon and southwest Washington rotate clockwise relative to North America at rates of 0.4–1.0 ° Myr–1. No shear or extension along the Cascades volcanic arc has occurred at the mm/yr level during the past decade, suggesting that the shear deformation extending northward from the Walker Lane and eastern California shear zone south of Oregon is largely accommodated by block rotation in Oregon. The general agreement of vertical axis rotation rates derived from GPS velocities with those estimated from palaeomagnetic declination anomalies suggests that the rotations have been relatively steady for 10–15 Ma. Additional permanent dextral shear is indicated within the Oregon Coast Range near the coast. Block rotations in the Pacific Northwest do not result in net westward flux of crustal material—the crust is simply spinning and not escaping. On Vancouver Island, where the convergence obliquity is less than in Oregon and Washington, the contractional strain at the coast is more aligned with Juan de Fuca—North America motion. GPS velocities are fit significantly better when Vancouver Island and the southern Coast Mountains move relative to North America in a block-like fashion. The relative motions of the Oregon, western Washington and Vancouver Island crustal blocks indicate that the rate of permanent shortening, the type that causes upper plate earthquakes, across the Puget Sound region is 4.4 ± 0.3 mm yr–1. This shortening is likely distributed over several faults but GPS data alone cannot determine the partitioning of slip on them. The transition from predominantly shear deformation within the continent south of the Mendocino Triple Junction to predominantly block rotations north of it is similar to changes in tectonic style at other transitions from shear to subduction. This similarity suggests that crustal block rotations are enhanced in the vicinity of subduction zones possibly due to lower resisting stress.
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

 

[CrusaderFrank]

PumaPunku seems to have been a dock, the curious thing is that the nearest body of water, Lake Titcaca (I know, it was Beavis and Butthead favorite Lake) is now 10 miles away.

The Lake is still one of the largest bodies of fresh water so the idea that it was 10 miles longer in antiquity means it would have been one of the biggest lakes in the world.

Still, why a massive dock like this unless there are other, now buried cities along what might have been it's shoreline?

How far back in history do we have to go to get a Lake Titicaca lapping on the shores of PumaPunku?

What tools did they use to carve the stones with such eerie precision? I don't think it was antlers.

What metal did they use for the rebars? You can clearly see the indentation where the metal rebars were placed to join the massive stones together Was it llama skins? Dried grasses? Yeah, I don't think so either. It's not gold either.

 

[Old Rocks]

PumaPunku seems to have been a dock, the curious thing is that the nearest body of water, Lake Titcaca (I know, it was Beavis and Butthead favorite Lake) is now 10 miles away.

The Lake is still one of the largest bodies of fresh water so the idea that it was 10 miles longer in antiquity means it would have been one of the biggest lakes in the world.

Still, why a massive dock like this unless there are other, now buried cities along what might have been it's shoreline?

How far back in history do we have to go to get a Lake Titicaca lapping on the shores of PumaPunku?

What tools did they use to carve the stones with such eerie precision? I don't think it was antlers.

What metal did they use for the rebars? You can clearly see the indentation where the metal rebars were placed to join the massive stones together Was it llama skins? Dried grasses? Yeah, I don't think so either. It's not gold either.

First, Lake Titicaca has an outlet. That means that the lake can get no higher than the point where the outlet has adaquete drainage. More than likely, that outlet has been eroding deeper with the years. So a much higher lake level is entirely reasonable with the bottom of that outlet was at a higher level.

It is doubtful that most of the civilization that built that dock lived in dressed stone houses. More likely they lived in simple stone huts such as you see today.

Archeologists have duplicated the finish and fit of the Inca stones using simple stone tools.

Those indentations were almost identical with the ones joining the stones together in the Parthenon in Athens, Greece. The Andean Indians worked gold, I fail to see why they may not have worked lead.

Now these are all just suppositions, but they do not require 'aliens' or 'magical' powers. Just the ingenuity that the Native Americans have demonstrated in many areas of their lives.

 

[Xenophon]

This isn't new, this site was a big deal in the 70s during the 'Chariots of the Gods' thing that was so popular at that time.

 

[editec]

I have never really seen any evidence that anything the ancient cultures did technically was beyond their ability to figure out and do with the resources they had on hand.

With the noteable exception of the Mayan Calendar.

That truly is an amazingly accurate piece of timekeeping.

It is, or so I am informed, still more accurately charting the course of the heavens than our current calendar is.

Now how the hell did they do that?

Not a clue.

 

[Xenophon]

The secrets of the ancients are lost, its unlikely we will ever know how they built these things at a time before most science was understood.

 

[strollingbones]

the pictographs that can only be seen from the sky....that is the mind boggling one to me..

 

[strollingbones]

i would think stone is like glass...its all in understanding the natural ways of cutting....some stones split very easy yet they are strong....a culture might opt to mine stones for the benefit of the community where as they may not have made permenant dwellings for themselves...

 

[N4mddissent]

I thought I knew about anomalies and archaeological sites but what I saw last night on the History channel floored me.

Located near Tiauanco, which is mysterious enough in itself, is a site know as Puma Punku. The stones weigh up to 400 tons and are cut with precision that is far beyond the capabilities of the Geico Caveman.

Capabilities of ancient civilizations are consistently underestimated. Early man had pretty much the same size brain that we do.

Again, another civilization that built monolithic structures that show a total disregard for gravity.

Total disregard for gravity? Is the thing floating? If they support the stuff up high with stuff on the ground, they have a regard for gravity. It's fine to be impressed with their ingenuity but I think disregard for gravity is a bit overboard.

The site lays in ruins so it's anyone's guess how old it is. 15,000 years not being unreasonable.

Uhh...no. On many levels.

1. It's not "anyone's guess" how old it is. Archaeologists have precise, proven, physics and biology based techniques for determining the age of ancient sites. Sure anyone can offer a guess, but they do not all have equal validity.

2. 15,000 years is very unreasonable. We've found very little evidence of humans present in South America 15,000 years ago, indicating that if there, they were just arriving. And the earliest signs of agriculture- necessary for city building- are between 6000-7000 BCE or 8-9000 years ago.

3. Modern dating has determined the site's peak was between 500 and 1000 CE. So it is less than 2000 years old.

A lot of the conspiracy stuff about this site comes from a couple of early mistakes. The first person to "study" the site was a writer and a crank to boot. The next guy was a researcher but held to some strange and radical theories that were ultimately dismissed as false after they were shown to be inconsistent with data.

From the website of the actual excavation:

In the late 1960s, writer Erich von Daniken concluded from his "research" that aliens set up a base at Tiwanaku and erected the great monuments using their extraterrestrial technology. He used as evidence a bizarre biblical interpretation that the prophet Ezekiel had been abducted by these same cosmic beings.

Fortunately, scientific investigations over the course of this century have corrected these misconceptions and left us with a deeper understanding of the complexity of Tiwanaku and the cultural history of the Titicaca Basin. Arthur Posnansky is one of the more important figures in Tiwanaku studies, producing one of the most detailed studies of the ruins after decades of investigations. Unfortunately, his theories of hyper-diffusion, exaggerated age for the site (10,000 B.C.), and radical ideas of race tainted an otherwise incredible career.​

More info

 

[PoliticalChic]

I thought I knew about anomalies and archaeological sites but what I saw last night on the History channel floored me.

Located near Tiauanco, which is mysterious enough in itself, is a site know as Puma Punku. The stones weigh up to 400 tons and are cut with precision that is far beyond the capabilities of the Geico Caveman.

Again, another civilization that built monolithic structures that show a total disregard for gravity.

The site lays in ruins so it's anyone's guess how old it is. 15,000 years not being unreasonable.

YouTube - Great Pyramids vs Puma Punku

Interesting coincidence, this thread appears on the anniversary of the discovery of the remains of the Kennewick Man.

Kennewick Man is the name for the skeletal remains of a prehistoric man found on a bank of the Columbia River in Kennewick, Washington, USA on July 28, 1996. The discovery of Kennewick Man was accidental: a pair of spectators (Will Thomas and David Deacy) found his skull while attending the annual hydroplane races.[1]

The remains became embroiled in debates about the relationship between Native American religious rights, archaeology and other interested stakeholders.[2][3] Based on the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), five Native American groups (the Nez Perce, Umatilla, Yakama, Wanapum, and Colville) claimed the remains as theirs, to be buried by traditional means. Only the Umatilla tribe continued further court proceedings. In February 2004, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that a cultural link between the tribes and the skeleton was not met, allowing scientific study of the remains to continue.[4] The discovery of Kennewick Man, along with other ancient skeletons, has furthered scientific debate over the exact origin and history of early Native American people."
Kennewick Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The find has interesting political ramifications, as the Native American tribes want the bones buried, and there be no question as to who the first Americans were.

"The remains of one of the oldest North Americans ever found have been recovered in Washington state. The 9,300-year old skeleton is 90% complete and belongs to a Caucasian male about five foot ten inches tall.The Indians had no explanation as to how one of their "ancestors" could be Caucasian. At stake at the center of this controversy is the rewriting of American pre-Columbian history--sooner rather than later. "
Kennewick Man or Dead "Indians" Don't Lie - Essay by Louis Beam

Calling Charlie Bass.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I thought I knew about anomalies and archaeological sites but what I saw last night on the History channel floored me.

Located near Tiauanco, which is mysterious enough in itself, is a site know as Puma Punku. The stones weigh up to 400 tons and are cut with precision that is far beyond the capabilities of the Geico Caveman.

Capabilities of ancient civilizations are consistently underestimated. Early man had pretty much the same size brain that we do.

Again, another civilization that built monolithic structures that show a total disregard for gravity.

Total disregard for gravity? Is the thing floating? If they support the stuff up high with stuff on the ground, they have a regard for gravity. It's fine to be impressed with their ingenuity but I think disregard for gravity is a bit overboard.

The site lays in ruins so it's anyone's guess how old it is. 15,000 years not being unreasonable.

Uhh...no. On many levels.

1. It's not "anyone's guess" how old it is. Archaeologists have precise, proven, physics and biology based techniques for determining the age of ancient sites. Sure anyone can offer a guess, but they do not all have equal validity.

2. 15,000 years is very unreasonable. We've found very little evidence of humans present in South America 15,000 years ago, indicating that if there, they were just arriving. And the earliest signs of agriculture- necessary for city building- are between 6000-7000 BCE or 8-9000 years ago.

3. Modern dating has determined the site's peak was between 500 and 1000 CE. So it is less than 2000 years old.

A lot of the conspiracy stuff about this site comes from a couple of early mistakes. The first person to "study" the site was a writer and a crank to boot. The next guy was a researcher but held to some strange and radical theories that were ultimately dismissed as false after they were shown to be inconsistent with data.

From the website of the actual excavation:

In the late 1960s, writer Erich von Daniken concluded from his "research" that aliens set up a base at Tiwanaku and erected the great monuments using their extraterrestrial technology. He used as evidence a bizarre biblical interpretation that the prophet Ezekiel had been abducted by these same cosmic beings.

Fortunately, scientific investigations over the course of this century have corrected these misconceptions and left us with a deeper understanding of the complexity of Tiwanaku and the cultural history of the Titicaca Basin. Arthur Posnansky is one of the more important figures in Tiwanaku studies, producing one of the most detailed studies of the ruins after decades of investigations. Unfortunately, his theories of hyper-diffusion, exaggerated age for the site (10,000 B.C.), and radical ideas of race tainted an otherwise incredible career.​

More info

Tiwanaku and PumaPunku are 2 totally different cities. Your article discusses Tiwanaku of which I'm well aware. The OP is about a city that must predate Tiwanku because, well it's it ruins, so whatever disaster befell it would have leveled Tiwanaku as well.

Also, I've been searching to see it anyone can accurately how far back in antiquity you'd have to go to have Titicaca lap on the shoreline of Puma Punku since part of the remaining structure is obviously a dock.

My statement about a "total disregard for gravity" is merely how I continue to express my amazement at how ancient civilizations could handle stone weighing as much as 1,000 tons as they do at Baalbek.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

ARCHAEOLOGY
A publication of the Archaeological Institute of America

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Yeah, big fucking surprise

 

[Cecilie1200]

The secrets of the ancients are lost, its unlikely we will ever know how they built these things at a time before most science was understood.

I saw a video once about a guy whose hobby was building stone formations like this with nothing more than the abilities and equipment that a primitive would have, although they'd have had to be incredibly smart to figure it out. The video might be available on YouTube.