CDZ America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent

[flacaltenn]

it makes it completely impossible to have HONEST conversations with you..

I'm very aware of the arguments you make. I hang out here, don't I? How could I not know? I actually listen to the vids, read the articles, follow the links. I have made my decision knowing both arguments; as a matter of fact, I knew exactly what responses I would get when I was typing them. Almost made me give up, because I knew there was no sense in it.

Unless you define 'honest' as agreeing with you, I fail to see where it is impossible to have an honest discussion with me. But that's entirely your choice and it's no skin off my nose.

Maybe I missed it but you still haven't answered his question about Trump behaving as a dictator or something similar...., heck many democrats have called Trump a Dictator, but when pressed on what he has done as a Dictator, they dodge the question or ignore altogether.

Larger problem is that Congress is totally hosed and ineffectual.. Which just tempts the Chief Exec to try to do more with end-arounds and EOrders. This is NOT just a Repub issue.. And it's also NOT just a Swamp issue.. Same thing happening in the States. Worse in Cali because of their stupid 40 page "ballot propositions" every election.. ANOTHER way of taking power from the legislature -- or in Cali case -- the legislature ABDICATING its power WILLINGLY to have the "special interests" flood the airwaves with sketchy propaganda that determines "the will of the people".. It's Owellian and not even closer to "pure Democracy". Letting special interests do the battles for them and do it DISHONESTLY is the reason Cali is now and forever a "one party state".

We're hosed on a MACRO scale now because of the 2 party death match..

 

[OldLady]

all of the voter election misconduct affidavits are being dismissed out of hand or automatically being labeled debunked

They are being looked into and THEN explained or debunked. But the fraud crowd ignores that and keeps spewing them.

NO major court in the past month -- INCLUDING the SupCt decision today -- has EVER ruled on ANY of the merits of the case.. Evidence is collected thru discovery PRE-TRIAL.. No court has EVER granted a trial.. WHY? Because in the end --- there's NO REMEDY to be had.. Alito and Thomas said that today.. They stated that by all rights -- the Sup Ct should NOT have rejected the case on the technical "no standing" decision.. But said there was no possible remedy for the damage.

That's because the STATEHOUSES in those states that were blindsided by their courts MAKING LAW ILLEGALLY are the ones to determine remedies. It's the ANTI-Authoritarian "states rights" recognition as it SHOULD be.. Repubs failed again to keep the left from destroying election trust and integrity.. Trump KNEW this was the likely outcome and tried to warn them.. But did NOTHING himself to interfere. Which is the way it should be..

It's done. You cannot reconstruct the election crimes once the mail ballot packaging is discarded. You can only look at the forensic fingerprints of how many ballots were shoved thru ILLEGALLY once the Dems destroyed any chain of custody on those ballots.. And Dems have a fundamental blindspot between "legal and illegal".. Be it ballots or immigrants or election laws.. Cant' trust a party that totally screwed up the count at their own Iowa primary to be ANYWHERE NEAR -- election law or policy..

it makes it completely impossible to have HONEST conversations with you..

I'm very aware of the arguments you make. I hang out here, don't I? How could I not know? I actually listen to the vids, read the articles, follow the links. I have made my decision knowing both arguments; as a matter of fact, I knew exactly what responses I would get when I was typing them. Almost made me give up, because I knew there was no sense in it.

Unless you define 'honest' as agreeing with you, I fail to see where it is impossible to have an honest discussion with me. But that's entirely your choice and it's no skin off my nose.

Maybe I missed it but you still haven't answered his question about Trump behaving as a dictator or something similar...., heck many democrats have called Trump a Dictator, but when pressed on what he has done as a Dictator, they dodge the question or ignore altogether.

I tried my best to show what I (and many others) see as authoritarian moves. I didn't see a need to repeat myself.

 

[OldLady]

all of the voter election misconduct affidavits are being dismissed out of hand or automatically being labeled debunked

They are being looked into and THEN explained or debunked. But the fraud crowd ignores that and keeps spewing them.

NO major court in the past month -- INCLUDING the SupCt decision today -- has EVER ruled on ANY of the merits of the case.. Evidence is collected thru discovery PRE-TRIAL.. No court has EVER granted a trial.. WHY? Because in the end --- there's NO REMEDY to be had.. Alito and Thomas said that today.. They stated that by all rights -- the Sup Ct should NOT have rejected the case on the technical "no standing" decision.. But said there was no possible remedy for the damage.

That's because the STATEHOUSES in those states that were blindsided by their courts MAKING LAW ILLEGALLY are the ones to determine remedies. It's the ANTI-Authoritarian "states rights" recognition as it SHOULD be.. Repubs failed again to keep the left from destroying election trust and integrity.. Trump KNEW this was the likely outcome and tried to warn them.. But did NOTHING himself to interfere. Which is the way it should be..

It's done. You cannot reconstruct the election crimes once the mail ballot packaging is discarded. You can only look at the forensic fingerprints of how many ballots were shoved thru ILLEGALLY once the Dems destroyed any chain of custody on those ballots.. And Dems have a fundamental blindspot between "legal and illegal".. Be it ballots or immigrants or election laws.. Cant' trust a party that totally screwed up the count at their own Iowa primary to be ANYWHERE NEAR -- election law or policy..

I'm not even going to try to unpack that dump truck load. This isn't a thread on your favorite failed election fraud arguments. You're right it's over, but not because the envelopes were thrown away or because every court in the country is corrupt. It's over because Trump didn't get as many votes as Biden. They were real votes by real people. He wanted to cheat, because he is obsessed with winning, and we wouldn't let him. Hence he has fed you a load of manure.

 

[Sunsettommy]

all of the voter election misconduct affidavits are being dismissed out of hand or automatically being labeled debunked

They are being looked into and THEN explained or debunked. But the fraud crowd ignores that and keeps spewing them.

NO major court in the past month -- INCLUDING the SupCt decision today -- has EVER ruled on ANY of the merits of the case.. Evidence is collected thru discovery PRE-TRIAL.. No court has EVER granted a trial.. WHY? Because in the end --- there's NO REMEDY to be had.. Alito and Thomas said that today.. They stated that by all rights -- the Sup Ct should NOT have rejected the case on the technical "no standing" decision.. But said there was no possible remedy for the damage.

That's because the STATEHOUSES in those states that were blindsided by their courts MAKING LAW ILLEGALLY are the ones to determine remedies. It's the ANTI-Authoritarian "states rights" recognition as it SHOULD be.. Repubs failed again to keep the left from destroying election trust and integrity.. Trump KNEW this was the likely outcome and tried to warn them.. But did NOTHING himself to interfere. Which is the way it should be..

It's done. You cannot reconstruct the election crimes once the mail ballot packaging is discarded. You can only look at the forensic fingerprints of how many ballots were shoved thru ILLEGALLY once the Dems destroyed any chain of custody on those ballots.. And Dems have a fundamental blindspot between "legal and illegal".. Be it ballots or immigrants or election laws.. Cant' trust a party that totally screwed up the count at their own Iowa primary to be ANYWHERE NEAR -- election law or policy..

it makes it completely impossible to have HONEST conversations with you..

I'm very aware of the arguments you make. I hang out here, don't I? How could I not know? I actually listen to the vids, read the articles, follow the links. I have made my decision knowing both arguments; as a matter of fact, I knew exactly what responses I would get when I was typing them. Almost made me give up, because I knew there was no sense in it.

Unless you define 'honest' as agreeing with you, I fail to see where it is impossible to have an honest discussion with me. But that's entirely your choice and it's no skin off my nose.

Maybe I missed it but you still haven't answered his question about Trump behaving as a dictator or something similar...., heck many democrats have called Trump a Dictator, but when pressed on what he has done as a Dictator, they dodge the question or ignore altogether.

I tried my best to show what I (and many others) see as authoritarian moves. I didn't see a need to repeat myself.

Then you can't answer the question, thank you for that.

 

[DustyInfinity]

The rejection of political plurality - It takes two sides to fight. It isn't like the left isn't trying to wipe out the Republican Party.

At this point, they sure are hopping mad. But what is Joe Biden's message? Unity. That doesn't mean we all have to agree but that we can work together for a common cause--our country, not our party. He says he will be a President for all the people, not just his supporters. Let's give it a try.

I am disappointed that you actually believe Biden when he says he wants Unity. His party, your party, has denigrated republican voters for years. The outright contempt for democrat leaders to conservatives is visceral. I would love unity, but Biden and democrat leadership have sunk to frightening levels to wipe me out.

I have no party. If you would love unity, you need to listen for the voices willing to communicate like intelligent people with ideas. Let the shriekers make each other deaf.

I like you because you are genuine, and willing to discuss things. Since I know you are sincere, I struggle to see how you try to defend the media and believe that democrats are interested in getting along. I have no interest in the shriekers, I have seen the results of failed democrat policies and do not wish to double down on failure. Big City crime waves and tent cities all along the Pacific Coast are indicators to me that progressivism is a road better off not travelled.

 

[DustyInfinity]

First of all, sorry that this is late. Was called away this morning ...

I think we ought NOT to think that the core of Trumpism is “authoritarianism” so much as it is rightwing nationalist populism. The Atlantic article is a bit misleading in this sense, but it is clearly talking about “nationalist authoritarian populists” who all over the world are being elected:

“Trump is just one more example of the many populists on the right who have risen to power around the world: Narendra Modi in India, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Vladimir Putin in Russia, Jarosław Kaczyński in Poland, and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, my home country. These people win elections but subvert democratic norms ... Orbán proudly uses the phrase illiberal democracy [my emphasis] to describe the populism practiced by these men; Trump has many similarities to them, both rhetorically and policy-wise.”

This article says that Trump FAILED to become a successful populist authoritarian like those above because of his incompetence in governing, because he demonized, frightened and infuriated unnecessarily too many otherwise potential supporters. It speaks mostly of voters in the recent election.

Behind the election game and two-party “democracy” there have always been other factors at play. Everyone knows Trump ran against and was hated by mainstream liberal media (whom he “played” to perfection). A key point not often discussed, however, is that over three years — despite throwing valuable economic benefits their way — Trump personally alienated key players on Wall Street and powerful private capitalist networks (e.g. the Koch brothers) which otherwise agreed with his policies and were willing to give him a chance to “grow into the presidency.” There were others at the high summits of the “Security State” who became convinced he was simply unstable, incompetent and irresponsible — a “moron” at actually running the complex world empire our system depends upon. A rightwing “patriotic” demagogue more competent at uniting the nation and governing it would have been able to win much greater support from the MIC and “Security State,” just as Trump won support from most cops. Few people, liberal or conservative, really appreciate this fact.

I’m not interested in arguing here with martybegan for flacaltenn or others who are convinced everything wrong in America is the fault of Democrats, or that their being asked to wear masks or flush toilets or give up their 60 watt incandescent bulbs is an intolerable sacrifice imposed by authoritarian communists. I am no defender of Biden either, though I confess I resentfully voted for him. I am just arguing that Republicans, with their crackpot minority intact, with Trump’s self-same “nationalist” policies, will probably sweep back into power sooner rather than later.

I agree with Republicans that “left” populist authoritarianism is often obnoxious. Under certain conditions and in other countries it can be a serious problem. But as a social movement, as an electoral bloc, it has and can have very little traction in this country. What remains of the U.S. “working class” mostly supported Trump, or is atomized, its unions broken. Many “progressive” liberal millennials will grow out of their Harry Potter dream worlds, like most hippies did. I believe real conditions in the U.S. will continue to deteriorate for those without a stock portfolio regardless of which party is in power, and this will help demagogic Republicans sweep back into power. Democrats (if they should win the Senate in 2022) may slightly cushion the economic blow, but I think this unlikely, and very unlikely to last. Clearly the Democratic version of gender, race and other identity politics cannot “trump” demagogic “Americanism” domestically. Even the conman Trump ALMOST won re-election, and probably would have, had Covid not arrived. Invoking the Flag, Guns, the Bible, and The Wall, attacking “socialist” Democrats — this remains the likely way forward for Republicans.

The last serious and lasting “progressive” or “left” re-formulation of national American politics (not counting the Civil Rights Movement which was initially bi-partisan) was the New Deal. The likelihood that another liberal capitalist like FDR can arise and lead another transformational reform movement addressing “bread and butter” and structural economic issues ... is very small. The necessary domestic conditions simply do not exist. The likelihood that such a movement could be led by a real authoritarian leftist ... is far, far smaller.

Early on, even before the COVID pandemic hit the U.S. and while Trump was still playing footsie with XiJinping, I predicted Trump would use the “China issue” to beat up on Democrats. This issue is not going away. Nor can corporate “globalism” be replaced by national autarchy. Trade with India and South America, competition from Japan, Korea, and old Europe, these all have already tended to devastate wages for working people in the U.S.A. The rise of the Amazon / Walmart / high tech economy will continue to bifurcate wealth. Democrats may also play tough with China, but the Wall Street & Federal Reserve American Empire, like U.S. military dominance all over the world, is riddled with (not always obvious) weaknesses. Protectionism, U.S. sanctions against competitors (easily redefined as “enemies”) and refusal to abandon our existing world supremacy, will almost certainly lead the U.S. into conflicts with China and other powers, and all the old nationalist madness will return. It will smooth the way for an elected, popular, rightwing authoritarian to take power.

I've noticed that you and your circle casually call Trump a failure. Trump made life better for working people. Fuel costs were low, taxes and regulations were lowered, people were employed at record levels, confidence in the economy was at an all time high, and wages made gains on inflation. Add in that we did not get into any stupid wars, and that pockets of peace are forming in the Middle East, I would have to disagree with your assessment. He did the things I voted for him to do. I'm curious what you think someone like Biden would do for you to deem them successful.

 

[flacaltenn]

First of all, sorry that this is late. Was called away this morning ...

I think we ought NOT to think that the core of Trumpism is “authoritarianism” so much as it is rightwing nationalist populism. The Atlantic article is a bit misleading in this sense, but it is clearly talking about “nationalist authoritarian populists” who all over the world are being elected:

“Trump is just one more example of the many populists on the right who have risen to power around the world: Narendra Modi in India, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Vladimir Putin in Russia, Jarosław Kaczyński in Poland, and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, my home country. These people win elections but subvert democratic norms ... Orbán proudly uses the phrase illiberal democracy [my emphasis] to describe the populism practiced by these men; Trump has many similarities to them, both rhetorically and policy-wise.”

This article says that Trump FAILED to become a successful populist authoritarian like those above because of his incompetence in governing, because he demonized, frightened and infuriated unnecessarily too many otherwise potential supporters. It speaks mostly of voters in the recent election.

Behind the election game and two-party “democracy” there have always been other factors at play. Everyone knows Trump ran against and was hated by mainstream liberal media (whom he “played” to perfection). A key point not often discussed, however, is that over three years — despite throwing valuable economic benefits their way — Trump personally alienated key players on Wall Street and powerful private capitalist networks (e.g. the Koch brothers) which otherwise agreed with his policies and were willing to give him a chance to “grow into the presidency.” There were others at the high summits of the “Security State” who became convinced he was simply unstable, incompetent and irresponsible — a “moron” at actually running the complex world empire our system depends upon. A rightwing “patriotic” demagogue more competent at uniting the nation and governing it would have been able to win much greater support from the MIC and “Security State,” just as Trump won support from most cops. Few people, liberal or conservative, really appreciate this fact.

I’m not interested in arguing here with martybegan for flacaltenn or others who are convinced everything wrong in America is the fault of Democrats, or that their being asked to wear masks or flush toilets or give up their 60 watt incandescent bulbs is an intolerable sacrifice imposed by authoritarian communists. I am no defender of Biden either, though I confess I resentfully voted for him. I am just arguing that Republicans, with their crackpot minority intact, with Trump’s self-same “nationalist” policies, will probably sweep back into power sooner rather than later.

I agree with Republicans that “left” populist authoritarianism is often obnoxious. Under certain conditions and in other countries it can be a serious problem. But as a social movement, as an electoral bloc, it has and can have very little traction in this country. What remains of the U.S. “working class” mostly supported Trump, or is atomized, its unions broken. Many “progressive” liberal millennials will grow out of their Harry Potter dream worlds, like most hippies did. I believe real conditions in the U.S. will continue to deteriorate for those without a stock portfolio regardless of which party is in power, and this will help demagogic Republicans sweep back into power. Democrats (if they should win the Senate in 2022) may slightly cushion the economic blow, but I think this unlikely, and very unlikely to last. Clearly the Democratic version of gender, race and other identity politics cannot “trump” demagogic “Americanism” domestically. Even the conman Trump ALMOST won re-election, and probably would have, had Covid not arrived. Invoking the Flag, Guns, the Bible, and The Wall, attacking “socialist” Democrats — this remains the likely way forward for Republicans.

The last serious and lasting “progressive” or “left” re-formulation of national American politics (not counting the Civil Rights Movement which was initially bi-partisan) was the New Deal. The likelihood that another liberal capitalist like FDR can arise and lead another transformational reform movement addressing “bread and butter” and structural economic issues ... is very small. The necessary domestic conditions simply do not exist. The likelihood that such a movement could be led by a real authoritarian leftist ... is far, far smaller.

Early on, even before the COVID pandemic hit the U.S. and while Trump was still playing footsie with XiJinping, I predicted Trump would use the “China issue” to beat up on Democrats. This issue is not going away. Nor can corporate “globalism” be replaced by national autarchy. Trade with India and South America, competition from Japan, Korea, and old Europe, these all have already tended to devastate wages for working people in the U.S.A. The rise of the Amazon / Walmart / high tech economy will continue to bifurcate wealth. Democrats may also play tough with China, but the Wall Street & Federal Reserve American Empire, like U.S. military dominance all over the world, is riddled with (not always obvious) weaknesses. Protectionism, U.S. sanctions against competitors (easily redefined as “enemies”) and refusal to abandon our existing world supremacy, will almost certainly lead the U.S. into conflicts with China and other powers, and all the old nationalist madness will return. It will smooth the way for an elected, popular, rightwing authoritarian to take power.

I've recently read several great pieces TRYING to define populism and any potential threats. Academically -- it's a jungle of opposing and faulty views.. The threat could be LEFT or RIGHT. The threat could be benign or malignant.. All its all pretty irrelevant to Trump.. Trump is a populist simply because hit the RIGHT NOTE about "Washington being a swamp" and more importantly -- no longer working in the interests of the average American.. And also the TRUTH that the media no was no longer even pretending to be objective. He didn't pit left against right because he faced Swamp creature opposition from BOTH SIDES for BOASTING about his "outsider" status.. Swamp creatures UNITED to hold him off or destroy him. Had to slay 10 or 11 of the Republican Swamp creatures in debate on live TV just to get the nomination. And it wasn't pretty -- but the voters appreciated the beat-downs of career political hacks. That's as far as the populism tag goes.

As for "nationalists" being the Authoritarian threat, I'm not sure that nationalist and "tyrannical power" are any kind of predicates for each other. Certainly "Buy American First" was largely a lefty labor cause with no kind of enforcement whatsoever. And Fair Trade is not a "nationalist slogan" its a NECESSITY.

Don't think you recognize "nationalist threats" when they are infiltrating every aspect of America from abroad.. Wonder why you so blissfully unaware of the extent to which CHINA HAS infiltrated and launched coordinated espionage escapades into our GOVERNMENT, into our Financial Institutions, into our Universities and corporate boardrooms.. And the way they now can BANKRUPT and destroy any of the major interests that they LURED into China to become dependent on them for their corporate survival..

I've had a ring side seat for this. Saw it in my "intel days" and in my consulting firm to Silicon Valley companies. I've seen them EAT clients of mine alive in a matter of decade. First it's all lovey dovey and hospitable.. Then they demand access to corporate Intellectual Property to do their jobs correctly.. Next thing ya know -- they've made a convincing deal to take over all "Accounts Payable" because of the volume of accounts that need to be settled in Asia.. Pretty soon -- I'm up late at night taking calls from the "engineering staff" in China and not having a contact in AMERICA to process my payments.

You're ignoring the story this week about Swallwell his chinese honeypot who turns out to be Chinese Intelligence. He was PUT on the House INTEL committee while this operation was ongoing. Along with Di Feinsteins "driver" who turns out to be another plant. Added to many other INTRUSIONS of intel operations into our govt AT ALL LEVELS.. And at Universities-- there have DOZENS of American professors caught up in aiding and abetting Chinese Intel plants. THAT is what "Authoritarian Nationalism" DOES !!! It's not using tariffs as tools to arrive at fairer trade. I'm a genuine "free trader".,. Love to engage parts of the world in what they do best., But OUR COUNTRY has failed to fulfill their role in "fair trade".. The idea of having China make all our kitchy stuff and underwear and kid toys was so that WE could FOCUS on techno leadership in AI, in nano materials, in robotics and all those DIFFICULT things. We failed to do that. Largely because the business climate stunk in America and we and the govt got lazy..

So -- back to your boogeyman Trump and his "nationalist threat". As recent as 2012 election when the press BUTCHERED Romney for claiming that "Russia was our largest national threat" -- YOUR TEAM suddenly AGREED with Romney about 2015 for reasons that are obvious to me but I dont to share.. And because CHINA was a CASH COW and Big Kahuna for influence and power wielding. Having friendly INFLUENCE in China was a lucrative and desirable thing. As testified by all the Congress critters of BOTH stripes suddenly having big stakes in China. That's a THREAT to our Nationalism. Trump called it out. The people got schooled. And what was needed was FOCUSED negotiations on what "fair trading" would like WITHOUT all the espionage, theft of national secrets and espionage and backhand dealing..

THAT'S NOT NATIONALISM.. It was self-preservation. And it's certain to be DOOMED now with a Biden Administration that was GROUND ZERO for all that "intimate" Chinese influence that China traded their souls for...

3 years from now -- you'll still be blaming Trump for messing with China.. And all this I just described will be swept back under the table and we become their parasitic host again.,. And you'll STILL be screaming about some kind of righty nationalist populist threat of AUTHORITARIANISM that you can't quite spell out.. Because all of the evidence of how a REAL "nationalist authoritarian" regime is sucking us dry will be hidden again..

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

First of all, sorry that this is late. Was called away this morning ...

I think we ought NOT to think that the core of Trumpism is “authoritarianism” so much as it is rightwing nationalist populism. The Atlantic article is a bit misleading in this sense, but it is clearly talking about “nationalist authoritarian populists” who all over the world are being elected:

“Trump is just one more example of the many populists on the right who have risen to power around the world: Narendra Modi in India, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Vladimir Putin in Russia, Jarosław Kaczyński in Poland, and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, my home country. These people win elections but subvert democratic norms ... Orbán proudly uses the phrase illiberal democracy [my emphasis] to describe the populism practiced by these men; Trump has many similarities to them, both rhetorically and policy-wise.”

This article says that Trump FAILED to become a successful populist authoritarian like those above because of his incompetence in governing, because he demonized, frightened and infuriated unnecessarily too many otherwise potential supporters. It speaks mostly of voters in the recent election.

Behind the election game and two-party “democracy” there have always been other factors at play. Everyone knows Trump ran against and was hated by mainstream liberal media (whom he “played” to perfection). A key point not often discussed, however, is that over three years — despite throwing valuable economic benefits their way — Trump personally alienated key players on Wall Street and powerful private capitalist networks (e.g. the Koch brothers) which otherwise agreed with his policies and were willing to give him a chance to “grow into the presidency.” There were others at the high summits of the “Security State” who became convinced he was simply unstable, incompetent and irresponsible — a “moron” at actually running the complex world empire our system depends upon. A rightwing “patriotic” demagogue more competent at uniting the nation and governing it would have been able to win much greater support from the MIC and “Security State,” just as Trump won support from most cops. Few people, liberal or conservative, really appreciate this fact.

I’m not interested in arguing here with martybegan for flacaltenn or others who are convinced everything wrong in America is the fault of Democrats, or that their being asked to wear masks or flush toilets or give up their 60 watt incandescent bulbs is an intolerable sacrifice imposed by authoritarian communists. I am no defender of Biden either, though I confess I resentfully voted for him. I am just arguing that Republicans, with their crackpot minority intact, with Trump’s self-same “nationalist” policies, will probably sweep back into power sooner rather than later.

I agree with Republicans that “left” populist authoritarianism is often obnoxious. Under certain conditions and in other countries it can be a serious problem. But as a social movement, as an electoral bloc, it has and can have very little traction in this country. What remains of the U.S. “working class” mostly supported Trump, or is atomized, its unions broken. Many “progressive” liberal millennials will grow out of their Harry Potter dream worlds, like most hippies did. I believe real conditions in the U.S. will continue to deteriorate for those without a stock portfolio regardless of which party is in power, and this will help demagogic Republicans sweep back into power. Democrats (if they should win the Senate in 2022) may slightly cushion the economic blow, but I think this unlikely, and very unlikely to last. Clearly the Democratic version of gender, race and other identity politics cannot “trump” demagogic “Americanism” domestically. Even the conman Trump ALMOST won re-election, and probably would have, had Covid not arrived. Invoking the Flag, Guns, the Bible, and The Wall, attacking “socialist” Democrats — this remains the likely way forward for Republicans.

The last serious and lasting “progressive” or “left” re-formulation of national American politics (not counting the Civil Rights Movement which was initially bi-partisan) was the New Deal. The likelihood that another liberal capitalist like FDR can arise and lead another transformational reform movement addressing “bread and butter” and structural economic issues ... is very small. The necessary domestic conditions simply do not exist. The likelihood that such a movement could be led by a real authoritarian leftist ... is far, far smaller.

Early on, even before the COVID pandemic hit the U.S. and while Trump was still playing footsie with XiJinping, I predicted Trump would use the “China issue” to beat up on Democrats. This issue is not going away. Nor can corporate “globalism” be replaced by national autarchy. Trade with India and South America, competition from Japan, Korea, and old Europe, these all have already tended to devastate wages for working people in the U.S.A. The rise of the Amazon / Walmart / high tech economy will continue to bifurcate wealth. Democrats may also play tough with China, but the Wall Street & Federal Reserve American Empire, like U.S. military dominance all over the world, is riddled with (not always obvious) weaknesses. Protectionism, U.S. sanctions against competitors (easily redefined as “enemies”) and refusal to abandon our existing world supremacy, will almost certainly lead the U.S. into conflicts with China and other powers, and all the old nationalist madness will return. It will smooth the way for an elected, popular, rightwing authoritarian to take power.

So this is all about globalism? If you love your country and autonomy, it is part of the old madness? Don't you think it is pessimistic to think countries can't be independent without killing each other? I don't think it makes sense to give up our autonomy because aggressive bad actors such as China may be displeased.

I am an American and also an internationalist. Just as Thomas Paine was an Englishman who became an American patriot and along with Lafayette played a fine and honorable role in the French Revolution, I find no problem with “patriotism” so long as it is not just a front for backwardness and reaction.

We live in a very specific age of corporate globalism, which the “American Century” shaped into a financial empire dominated by Wall Street and policed in the Cold War interests of the West. After being on the winning side of two inter-imperialist world wars, controlling Middle East energy resources, and helping destroy the Soviet Union after it exited from its long Stalinist past, an arrogant assumption in D.C. grew that Washington could forever exercise “full spectrum dominance” over the world. This arrogance — added to other well known long unresolved historical problems — have led U.S. society to crisis.

So yes. The growing instability of the post-WWII liberal global capitalist order is what is leading to the rise of nationalist populists here as elsewhere. “Aggressive bad actors such as China” could be perfect Constitutional Democracies, but if they undercut our nation’s world economic dominance “the powers that be” in the U.S. would still treat them as “enemies” and project unto them the aggressive acts we ourselves have often been guilty of. Of course that China is non-Western and not at all a “liberal bourgeois democracy” makes resolving differences and maintaining “detente” much more difficult. It is not a question of national pride, “autonomy,” or national “independence” per se.

Also, parenthetically, our present problems are not caused by any formal “constitutional” issues, as Donald H seems to fear. Great empires have risen and fallen without constitutions, with unwritten constitutions, and dictatorships have overcome nations with very well written constitutions, in the past.

Our biggest problem comes from our gradual loss of economic and political domination of the world, and our nation’s apparent inability to understand that this is natural and inevitable.

 

[flacaltenn]

all of the voter election misconduct affidavits are being dismissed out of hand or automatically being labeled debunked

They are being looked into and THEN explained or debunked. But the fraud crowd ignores that and keeps spewing them.

NO major court in the past month -- INCLUDING the SupCt decision today -- has EVER ruled on ANY of the merits of the case.. Evidence is collected thru discovery PRE-TRIAL.. No court has EVER granted a trial.. WHY? Because in the end --- there's NO REMEDY to be had.. Alito and Thomas said that today.. They stated that by all rights -- the Sup Ct should NOT have rejected the case on the technical "no standing" decision.. But said there was no possible remedy for the damage.

That's because the STATEHOUSES in those states that were blindsided by their courts MAKING LAW ILLEGALLY are the ones to determine remedies. It's the ANTI-Authoritarian "states rights" recognition as it SHOULD be.. Repubs failed again to keep the left from destroying election trust and integrity.. Trump KNEW this was the likely outcome and tried to warn them.. But did NOTHING himself to interfere. Which is the way it should be..

It's done. You cannot reconstruct the election crimes once the mail ballot packaging is discarded. You can only look at the forensic fingerprints of how many ballots were shoved thru ILLEGALLY once the Dems destroyed any chain of custody on those ballots.. And Dems have a fundamental blindspot between "legal and illegal".. Be it ballots or immigrants or election laws.. Cant' trust a party that totally screwed up the count at their own Iowa primary to be ANYWHERE NEAR -- election law or policy..

I'm not even going to try to unpack that dump truck load. This isn't a thread on your favorite failed election fraud arguments. You're right it's over, but not because the envelopes were thrown away or because every court in the country is corrupt. It's over because Trump didn't get as many votes as Biden. They were real votes by real people. He wanted to cheat, because he is obsessed with winning, and we wouldn't let him. Hence he has fed you a load of manure.

Facts seem to be useless to lefties.. No curiousity whatsoever about the fact that Michigan received over a 100,000 MORE mail backs than were sent out. Or that ANY ALLEGED fraud only conveniently in just the 4 to 6 BIG CITIES in the states where election laws were altered in violation of State and Federal Constitutions.. Or the 66,000 underage voters in Georgia on the rolls which represents pretty much 100% of their 11 grade enrollment.

See, I don't mind the difficult discussions at all.. What I mind is folks claiming that MY opinion is NOT MY OWN.. And not earned by DOING hard work to get the facts and evidence. And worse, you not even being curious about SERIOUS and nation-ending types of election manipulation..

 

[flacaltenn]

“Aggressive bad actors such as China” could be perfect Constitutional Democracies, but if they undercut our nation’s world economic dominance “the powers that be” in the U.S. would still treat them as “enemies” and project unto them the aggressive acts we ourselves have often been guilty of. Of course that China is non-Western and not at all a “liberal bourgeois democracy” makes resolving differences and maintaining “detente” much more difficult. It is not a question of national pride, “autonomy,” or national “independence” per se.

Oh please !! Can we not agree as to what type of government China has? It's a totalitarian one party rule AUTHORITARIAN govt with designs on OWNING US -- by hook or crook.. What is this excuse that we don't like them "because they are non Western"??? Cuba's not "non-western" and the fact is their govt structure is TOTALITARIAN COMMUNIST dictatorship..

Seems to be some filter on your use of accurate terms.. Like the edicts that went out during Obama not to refer to anything or anyone as "muslim extremist". When most ARAB countries in that region of world have NO ISSUE with using that term..

Paine wouldn't like HIDING knowledge of your potential foes either.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

See the Bush II administration for that blueprint OP.

Thanks for exposing your bias towards the dem party,that’s why you turn the other cheek when their corruption is exposed the fact Obama lied about reversing bush’s corrupt policys expanding them,he lost a great portion of the black supporters after that.clueless as always I see.lol

 

[OldLady]

The rejection of political plurality - It takes two sides to fight. It isn't like the left isn't trying to wipe out the Republican Party.

At this point, they sure are hopping mad. But what is Joe Biden's message? Unity. That doesn't mean we all have to agree but that we can work together for a common cause--our country, not our party. He says he will be a President for all the people, not just his supporters. Let's give it a try.

I am disappointed that you actually believe Biden when he says he wants Unity. His party, your party, has denigrated republican voters for years. The outright contempt for democrat leaders to conservatives is visceral. I would love unity, but Biden and democrat leadership have sunk to frightening levels to wipe me out.

I have no party. If you would love unity, you need to listen for the voices willing to communicate like intelligent people with ideas. Let the shriekers make each other deaf.

I like you because you are genuine, and willing to discuss things. Since I know you are sincere, I struggle to see how you try to defend the media and believe that democrats are interested in getting along. I have no interest in the shriekers, I have seen the results of failed democrat policies and do not wish to double down on failure. Big City crime waves and tent cities all along the Pacific Coast are indicators to me that progressivism is a road better off not travelled.

I defend facts, not media per se. In that it is essential we have facts to help us make our decisions as citizens and voters, YES I support the media that provides the facts to us. I've already said how I feel Trump has tried to destroy that. It is the thing I have been most dead set against him for, because it makes it impossible to have a discussion or any eventual meeting of the minds when we are not starting from the same shared set of basic facts. Opinion has become so imbedded in people's perception that their facts are a grotesque parody of reality. Alternative facts are unforgiveable.

 

[flacaltenn]

The rejection of political plurality - It takes two sides to fight. It isn't like the left isn't trying to wipe out the Republican Party.

At this point, they sure are hopping mad. But what is Joe Biden's message? Unity. That doesn't mean we all have to agree but that we can work together for a common cause--our country, not our party. He says he will be a President for all the people, not just his supporters. Let's give it a try.

I am disappointed that you actually believe Biden when he says he wants Unity. His party, your party, has denigrated republican voters for years. The outright contempt for democrat leaders to conservatives is visceral. I would love unity, but Biden and democrat leadership have sunk to frightening levels to wipe me out.

I have no party. If you would love unity, you need to listen for the voices willing to communicate like intelligent people with ideas. Let the shriekers make each other deaf.

I like you because you are genuine, and willing to discuss things. Since I know you are sincere, I struggle to see how you try to defend the media and believe that democrats are interested in getting along. I have no interest in the shriekers, I have seen the results of failed democrat policies and do not wish to double down on failure. Big City crime waves and tent cities all along the Pacific Coast are indicators to me that progressivism is a road better off not travelled.

I defend facts, not media per se. In that it is essential we have facts to help us make our decisions as citizens and voters, YES I support the media that provides the facts to us. I've already said how I feel Trump has tried to destroy that. It is the thing I have been most dead set against him for, because it makes it impossible to have a discussion or any eventual meeting of the minds when we are not starting from the same shared set of basic facts. Opinion has become so imbedded in people's perception that their facts are a grotesque parody of reality. Alternative facts are unforgiveable.

The media that we knew is no longer "providing facts".. They are being consciously re-designed as "safe places" where only "non triggering" marshmallow fluff hot cocoa is served. It's obvious to MORE than 1/2 of America. And the same for social media with their Authoritarian fact checkers and "throttling and shadow banning" or outright PROHIBITING any free expression that isn't cuddly stuff animals all with the same squeeker..

I've got to leave this failed autopsy of yet another wordy Atlantic nothing burger.. But it's clear after the 100 days of looting and pillaging and how what's left of a media did their BEST to remove all the disturbing reality of that -- That the kind of Authoritarianism that America is most likely threatened by is "elitist authoritarianism" being put in place brick by brick daily.. At the Atlantic, at the NYTimes, at the 3 networks, at virtually all the "top rung" sosh media sites that would NOT ALLOW a discussion like this one anymore.. That's tyrannical already.. And too many are oblivious to that fact...

 

[OldLady]

The media that we knew is no longer "providing facts".. They are being consciously re-designed as "safe places" where only "non triggering" marshmallow fluff hot cocoa is served. It's obvious to MORE than 1/2 of America.

It is the half of America you refer to that is skidaddling away from the truth to bubbles where they don't have to hear uncomfortable facts, FCT. With Trumps ongoing efforts. Credible media verify facts independently before reporting them. If they make a mistake they retract it. If WaPo reports in six months that Joe Biden has taken million in bribes from China, I will believe them. You know why? Because they will present the facts behind that news and explain why it is credible.

Half the country has lost the ability to respect the truth.

 

[DustyInfinity]

The rejection of political plurality - It takes two sides to fight. It isn't like the left isn't trying to wipe out the Republican Party.

At this point, they sure are hopping mad. But what is Joe Biden's message? Unity. That doesn't mean we all have to agree but that we can work together for a common cause--our country, not our party. He says he will be a President for all the people, not just his supporters. Let's give it a try.

I am disappointed that you actually believe Biden when he says he wants Unity. His party, your party, has denigrated republican voters for years. The outright contempt for democrat leaders to conservatives is visceral. I would love unity, but Biden and democrat leadership have sunk to frightening levels to wipe me out.

I have no party. If you would love unity, you need to listen for the voices willing to communicate like intelligent people with ideas. Let the shriekers make each other deaf.

I like you because you are genuine, and willing to discuss things. Since I know you are sincere, I struggle to see how you try to defend the media and believe that democrats are interested in getting along. I have no interest in the shriekers, I have seen the results of failed democrat policies and do not wish to double down on failure. Big City crime waves and tent cities all along the Pacific Coast are indicators to me that progressivism is a road better off not travelled.

I defend facts, not media per se. In that it is essential we have facts to help us make our decisions as citizens and voters, YES I support the media that provides the facts to us. I've already said how I feel Trump has tried to destroy that. It is the thing I have been most dead set against him for, because it makes it impossible to have a discussion or any eventual meeting of the minds when we are not starting from the same shared set of basic facts. Opinion has become so imbedded in people's perception that their facts are a grotesque parody of reality. Alternative facts are unforgiveable.

Why do you assume your media is not a bubble, but conservative media is? Why is your bubble the 'truth.' You assume half the country is wrong. To be honest, between social media and the news media, I feel like we are immersed in a Matrix like facade. I asked my son if he realized the electronic media and the outside world were two totally different things. The electronic world is no more real than a Spongebob episode. I feel people are being manipulated on both sides. Have you ever noticed that different races get along well in the real world, but in the media, they are pushing a race war? It bothers me that the media paints things to the detriment of society. The media could encourage peace and unity, but it is not good for profits and political agendas.

 

[OldLady]

The rejection of political plurality - It takes two sides to fight. It isn't like the left isn't trying to wipe out the Republican Party.

At this point, they sure are hopping mad. But what is Joe Biden's message? Unity. That doesn't mean we all have to agree but that we can work together for a common cause--our country, not our party. He says he will be a President for all the people, not just his supporters. Let's give it a try.

I am disappointed that you actually believe Biden when he says he wants Unity. His party, your party, has denigrated republican voters for years. The outright contempt for democrat leaders to conservatives is visceral. I would love unity, but Biden and democrat leadership have sunk to frightening levels to wipe me out.

I have no party. If you would love unity, you need to listen for the voices willing to communicate like intelligent people with ideas. Let the shriekers make each other deaf.

I like you because you are genuine, and willing to discuss things. Since I know you are sincere, I struggle to see how you try to defend the media and believe that democrats are interested in getting along. I have no interest in the shriekers, I have seen the results of failed democrat policies and do not wish to double down on failure. Big City crime waves and tent cities all along the Pacific Coast are indicators to me that progressivism is a road better off not travelled.

I defend facts, not media per se. In that it is essential we have facts to help us make our decisions as citizens and voters, YES I support the media that provides the facts to us. I've already said how I feel Trump has tried to destroy that. It is the thing I have been most dead set against him for, because it makes it impossible to have a discussion or any eventual meeting of the minds when we are not starting from the same shared set of basic facts. Opinion has become so imbedded in people's perception that their facts are a grotesque parody of reality. Alternative facts are unforgiveable.

Why do you assume your media is not a bubble, but conservative media is? Why is your bubble the 'truth.' You assume half the country is wrong. To be honest, between social media and the news media, I feel like we are immersed in a Matrix like facade. I asked my son if he realized the electronic media and the outside world were two totally different things. The electronic world is no more real than a Spongebob episode. I feel people are being manipulated on both sides. Have you ever noticed that different races get along well in the real world, but in the media, they are pushing a race war? It bothers me that the media paints things to the detriment of society. The media could encourage peace and unity, but it is not good for profits and political agendas.

I'm basing my assumption on the things I read from rightwing posters that are twisted and untrue. And they are convinced they are true. What is more alarming is the fact that now even fact checking sites are being discredited, not just sites with "reputations" like NYT. Of course I can see left wing bias in MSM coverage, on tv and analysis shows, especially. I still know who I can trust for news, however--I don't need the opinion, I can sift that out.

One thing I know for sure, though, is that sites that have been running these voter fraud allegations as news without getting feedback from the election officials, as well, are not presenting news. They are spreading propaganda.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

The media that we knew is no longer "providing facts".. They are being consciously re-designed as "safe places" where only "non triggering" marshmallow fluff hot cocoa is served. It's obvious to MORE than 1/2 of America.

It is the half of America you refer to that is skidaddling away from the truth to bubbles where they don't have to hear uncomfortable facts, FCT. With Trumps ongoing efforts. Credible media verify facts independently before reporting them. If they make a mistake they retract it. If WaPo reports in six months that Joe Biden has taken million in bribes from China, I will believe them. You know why? Because they will present the facts behind that news and explain why it is credible.

Half the country has lost the ability to respect the truth.

I'd trust the National Enquirer more than I trust WaPo on reporting truthfully.

If I really want truthfulness I listen to alternative outlets like Ben Shapiro or Tim Pool who back up what they have to say by showing the item while they are discussing issue.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Sunsettommy]

The media that we knew is no longer "providing facts".. They are being consciously re-designed as "safe places" where only "non triggering" marshmallow fluff hot cocoa is served. It's obvious to MORE than 1/2 of America.

It is the half of America you refer to that is skidaddling away from the truth to bubbles where they don't have to hear uncomfortable facts, FCT. With Trumps ongoing efforts. Credible media verify facts independently before reporting them. If they make a mistake they retract it. If WaPo reports in six months that Joe Biden has taken million in bribes from China, I will believe them. You know why? Because they will present the facts behind that news and explain why it is credible.

Half the country has lost the ability to respect the truth.

Being gullible seems to be your choice since trusting the media for news means surrendering your independent thinking, for that of ingesting edited news they chose to give you.

 

[dblack]

I defend the basic view of this article. If you disagree, explain why. I am especially interested in debating liberal views, but of course all are welcome to express their opinions.

Trump was ineffective ... A future strongman won’t be...

Trump is just one more example of the many populists on the right who have risen to power around the world.... But there’s one key difference between Trump and everyone else.... The others are all talented politicians who win elections again and again....

Trump is not good at his job. He doesn’t even seem to like it much. He is too undisciplined and thin-skinned to be effective at politics over a sustained period, which involves winning repeated elections....

The situation is ... perfect ... for a talented politician to run on Trumpism in 2024. A person without the eager Twitter fingers and greedy hotel chains, someone with a penchant for governing rather than golf. An individual who does not irritate everyone who doesn’t already like him.... Someone who isn’t on tape boasting about assaulting women, and who says the right things about military veterans. Someone who can send appropriate condolences about senators who die, instead of angering their state’s voters, as Trump did, perhaps to his detriment, in Arizona. A norm-subverting strongman who can create a durable majority and keep his coalition together to win more elections....

Make no mistake: The attempt to harness Trumpism — without Trump, but with calculated, refined, and smarter political talent — is coming. And it won’t be easy to make the next Trumpist a one-term president.

America’s Next Authoritarian Will Be Much More Competent

The next populist authoritarian will come from the left. Bank on it.

 

[dblack]

I'd trust the National Enquirer more than I trust WaPo on reporting truthfully.

That pretty much sums up the problem, truthfully.