American muslims versus French muslims

[Harry Dresden]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

If what you say is true....then why do Muslims keep pouring into Europe by the millions? It makes no sense. If you hate the West and it's values, and feel you will not be given a fair shot.....then either why immigrate or stay?


And btw.....I appreciate your post and I am not busting your balls. It truly does not make sense to me. Thanks.

French bakeries?

Yeah...those French croissants are damn tasty.

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

 

[Sunni Man]

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

 

[Harry Dresden]

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

 

[Sunni Man]

American muslims were not sympathetic with or supported the actions of the Boston bombing brothers, the Orlando gay bar shooter, the Ft. Hood shooter, etc.

They brought nothing but grief and negative attention to the muslim community. ......

 

[WelfareQueen]

If things are as bad as Sunni Man says then why do Muslims keep pouring into Europe?

Basically, for the same reason that illegal Mexican's are flooding across our southern border.

For jobs and economic opportunities not available in their country. ......

But from what you stated Muslims are denied many basic economic opportunities in Europe. Strange. I guess the Middle East and North Africa must be real shit holes under Muslim rule. That is the only logical explanation why Muslims keep coming.

Things may not be great in France.....but they must be a hell of a lot worse in the Muslim world.

The thing is....you mentioned Mexico....which is mostly a giant shit hole. I have been there many times. But the "values" of the Mexican people do not seem to be in conflict with America. They don't seem to hate us for our culture or our beliefs. That is a key difference with many of the Muslim immigrates to Europe. They may be looking for economic opportunity, but they hate the West.

No wonder so many Muslims in Europe seem to be deeply conflicted. The source of that conflict is killing many innocents, and it is very sad. The problem.....how do the Nations of Europe determine those potential Muslim immigrates who only want economic opportunity versus those that hate the West and everything the West represents?

How does the United States accurately make those same judgments with potential Muslim immigrates?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

It has to do with the rate of immigration which should be controlled. Taking immigrants faster than you can assimilate them is like eating food faster than you can digest it. Large groups of immigrants form balkanized communities, microcosms of the old country. When done correctly, immigrants can raise their children in American schools, send them to college, and succeeding generations are completely assimilated. Our Asian Americans are a good example of immigration done well.

 

[Pogo]

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

 

[guno]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

It has to do with the rate of immigration which should be controlled. Taking immigrants faster than you can assimilate them is like eating food faster than you can digest it. Large groups of immigrants form balkanized communities, microcosms of the old country. When done correctly, immigrants can raise their children in American schools, send them to college, and succeeding generations are completely assimilated. Our Asian Americans are a good example of immigration done well.

should have told that to the native Americans

 

[Pogo]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

If what you say is true....then why do Muslims keep pouring into Europe by the millions? It makes no sense. If you hate the West and it's values, and feel you will not be given a fair shot.....then either why immigrate or stay?


And btw.....I appreciate your post and I am not busting your balls. It truly does not make sense to me. Thanks.

French bakeries?

Yeah...those French croissants are damn tasty.

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

 

[Pogo]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

This invites the definition of terms though --- what do we mean by "Muslim community"? Do we mean "people of whatever national background who have Islam in common"? Or do we mean "people who come from specific cultures where Islam is prevalent"? Because I see a constant conflation on these pages between "culture" and "religion", and it always muddies the waters. Depending on what you mean by the term, "Islam" may not even be involved.

Check this out --- Why Many Arab Americans Choose 'White' on the US Census

 

[Harry Dresden]

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

 

[Pogo]

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

American muslims have generally assimilated into the society and job market. They self identify as being U.S. citizens and take full advantage of all the civil and legal protections and economic / educational opportunities offered them.

French muslims on the other hand, have never been fully allowed to assimilate into French society. They are routinely denied many job and income opportunities afforded the average citizen. Most of the French muslims are relegated to live in ghetto like enclaves which further isolates them. So that today, 2nd and even 3rd generation muslims do not self identify as being French citizens. And therein lies the root of the anger. ......

It has to do with the rate of immigration which should be controlled. Taking immigrants faster than you can assimilate them is like eating food faster than you can digest it. Large groups of immigrants form balkanized communities, microcosms of the old country. When done correctly, immigrants can raise their children in American schools, send them to college, and succeeding generations are completely assimilated. Our Asian Americans are a good example of immigration done well.

should have told that to the native Americans

I'm very well assimilated into American culture. So, tell me what?

 

[Harry Dresden]

If what you say is true....then why do Muslims keep pouring into Europe by the millions? It makes no sense. If you hate the West and it's values, and feel you will not be given a fair shot.....then either why immigrate or stay?


And btw.....I appreciate your post and I am not busting your balls. It truly does not make sense to me. Thanks.

French bakeries?

Yeah...those French croissants are damn tasty.

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

so that brings up a question Sunni.....if push came to shove and the choice was backing either the USA or groups like isis....where do you think the Muslim community would stand?...

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

 

[Pogo]

French bakeries?

Yeah...those French croissants are damn tasty.

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

If you happen to notice, there isn't much enthusiasm for ISIS among American muslims today.

And I don't see that changing in the future. .....

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Yeah...those French croissants are damn tasty.

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

thats were the trust issue comes in....a hell of a lot of non-Muslim Americans feel that Muslims will side with Muslims over their Country in a heart beat....only Muslims living here can dispel that fear......

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

i have to explain that?.....

 

[Pogo]

Anyone who samples my coffee just raves about it, provided they like it strong -- well maybe this is why... before I moved to France I didn't even drink coffee, so that's what became my standard.

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

Actually ---- only the mass media that makes its money on Fear can dispel it. And that wouldn't be good for business.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

i have to explain that?.....

The last line -- "actions speak louder than words". Old maxim. What's the relevance?

 

[Harry Dresden]

so what brought you to France Pogo and how long did you reside there?.....im just curious.....

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

you can write things about people all day Pogo.....but its up to those people themselves to back up or disprove what is written about them....

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

i have to explain that?.....

The last line -- "actions speak louder than words". Old maxim. What's the relevance?

look pogo you know i like you,but if you want i will bring shootspeedos over to explain what that means .....come on Pogo!....what do you mean what is the relevance of that?.....you can say all day that Muslims are evil mother fuckers and do this and that,but in reality, if they are doing opposite what you are saying ...than their actions are speaking louder than your words.....

 

[Pogo]

What brought me to France? Icelandair. They were the cheap way to get there at the time, and to this day I regret not getting off the plane and staying a few days in Iceland enroute, but I had no idea how it would play out. Actually they flew you to Luxembourg, and from there I took a train to Paris -- after spending the weekend there because the French trains were on strike. I took off with a one-way ticket and knew absolutely no one in France. I just looked at one of those high school maps where they show what the industries of each region are, picked one that had both "wine" and "cheese" and went in that direction, which was Dijon.

I just decided to go and wander in the world. Had heard about the Vendange, which is the time of year when the grapes in the wine country are ready to harvest and the viticulteurs need an infusion of workers when they decide the time is ripe. Workers come from all over Europe and the Middle East as well as from all over France, and when it was all over I had an address book full of new friends and invitations everywhere. When that was over I moved from the countryside to Paris and worked in a couple of jobs including as an au pair boy. This would be the latter half of 1979 and the first half of 1980, at which point I had had enough and went to England, just because why not, it's right there over the Channel, and because the cheap way to get back was Laker, from London to New York.

Unbelievable experience all in all. Everybody should do it.

And how would "the people themselves" do that, when the mouthpiece is mass commercial media -- which, again, thrives on fear and loathing and disaster? How are individual people, who are simply individual people, supposed to counter the Pam Gellers putting words in their collective mouth?

No it is absolutely and emphatically *NOT* "up to those people themselves (anybody) to disprove what is written about them" ---- the burden of proof is STILL on the asserter, and that is never going to change.


I should reiterate that when I describe the many "Muslims" I worked and lived among in France, I'm assuming they were Muslim on the basis of their having come from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt and Sudan. I don't know that for a fact, since at no time did the topic of religion ever come up, nor did I ever see or hear anyone praying, preaching or anything of the sort. They either didn't bother with Islam, or they kept it private which is where religion belongs anyway. I'm sure it was a combination of both.

I did however hear a story or two in conversation about cultural experiences, such as my friend Satti describing the erotic rush he felt seeing a woman's face without a burka, due to the foundation of repression it created. I believe that would have been in Sudan. Again, a cultural thing, not a religion thing.

Real people in the Real World are on the whole nowhere remotely near the amount of obsessed and consumed with religion that this message board is, or the internet in general, or the sensationalist commercial news media. They're simply people like everybody else, with the same needs and desires and humanity. They're clearly not the subhuman monsters the Pam Gellers of the world would have us believe. Now, one can either sit at home, never go outside, suck up the Echobabble illusion from those commercial interests that stand to gain from propagating such an illusion --- or one can go out and see for oneself.

I go with the latter.

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

i have to explain that?.....

The last line -- "actions speak louder than words". Old maxim. What's the relevance?

look pogo you know i like you,but if you want i will bring shootspeedos over to explain what that means .....come on Pogo!....what do you mean what is the relevance of that?.....you can say all day that Muslims are evil mother fuckers and do this and that,but in reality, if they are doing opposite what you are saying ...than their actions are speaking louder than your words.....

Uh --- yeah OK Harry, thanks for four lines of non-answer.

 

[Harry Dresden]

And how would "the people themselves" do that
actions speak louder than words......

------------------------------ and?

i have to explain that?.....

The last line -- "actions speak louder than words". Old maxim. What's the relevance?

look pogo you know i like you,but if you want i will bring shootspeedos over to explain what that means .....come on Pogo!....what do you mean what is the relevance of that?.....you can say all day that Muslims are evil mother fuckers and do this and that,but in reality, if they are doing opposite what you are saying ...than their actions are speaking louder than your words.....

Uh --- yeah OK Harry, thanks for four lines of non-answer.

i gave you an answer.....you just dont like what i said....