America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

[NotfooledbyW]

#41 reply to ##38

Dude, I was pretty clear in what I said. Go back and reread it.

I did. That does not answer the questions. You also said this about it.

#33

Again, religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

That is why I’m asking about religious oppression. Who was committing religious oppression in your mind and who specifically is the First Amendment protecting from religious oppression?

“Does that mean that you agree that the
First Amendment’s primary intent is to prevent religious oppression by the dominant religion in the nation which was Protestant Christianity at the time it was written?

Yes No.

And do you agree that all believers in all the world’s religions and all non-believers of any type being in the minority are the citizens intended to be protected from the tyranny of the majority?

Yes No

Or do you believe the world's other religions and atheists were not on the Founders’ mind when they enacted the First Amendment?

Yes No

Was the First Amendment established to exclusively eliminate rivalry and conflict within the differing sects/denominations of Christianity and only Christianity?”

Yes No

 

[ding]

#41 reply to ##38

Dude, I was pretty clear in what I said. Go back and reread it.

I did. That does not answer the questions. You also said this about it.

#33

Again, religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

That is why I’m asking about religious oppression. Who was committing religious oppression in your mind and who specifically is the First Amendment protecting from religious oppression?

“Does that mean that you agree that the
First Amendment’s primary intent is to prevent religious oppression by the dominant religion in the nation which was Protestant Christianity at the time it was written?

Yes No.

And do you agree that all believers in all the world’s religions and all non-believers of any type being in the minority are the citizens intended to be protected from the tyranny of the majority?

Yes No

Or do you believe the world's other religions and atheists were not on the Founders’ mind when they enacted the First Amendment?

Yes No

Was the First Amendment established to exclusively eliminate rivalry and conflict within the differing sects/denominations of Christianity and only Christianity?”

Yes No

The establishment clause was written expressly to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

The states were free to establish state religions. The federal government was not.

so unless your question is was the establishment clause written to prevent the federal government from establishing a national religion to prevent it from interfering with state established religions the answer is no.

 

[ding]

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

 

[ding]

The prevention of religious oppression was limited to the federal government. The states were free to oppress until the cows came home.

of course one could always move to another state easier than they could change countries.

 

[BreezeWood]

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

.

How do I know this?

no one cares, your asking the question is proof enough of its groundless validity. your version is not written in the document itself making it a moot point no different than any other assertion than the face value of the statement itself.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

obviously a state religion is forbidden including presently at the state level due to the ratification of the 14th amendment.

give it a shot bing pass an amendment to make christianity the religion of this country - a joke at any level. it never happened and never will.

 

[ding]

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

.

How do I know this?

no one cares, your asking the question is proof enough of its groundless validity. your version is not written in the document itself making it a moot point no different than any other assertion than the face value of the statement itself.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

obviously a state religion is forbidden including presently at the state level due to the ratification of the 14th amendment.

give it a shot bing pass an amendment to make christianity the religion of this country - a joke at any level. it never happened and never will.

That’s a pretty stupid belief considering the same people who wrote the 14th amendment rejected applying the establishment clause to the states when they defeated the Blaine Amendment in the senate.

 

[ding]

The 14th Amendment has been the most abused Amendment of them all. But what can you expect from a court that has ruled that certain human lives are property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Twice.

 

[BreezeWood]

The 14th Amendment has been the most abused Amendment of them all. But what can you expect from a court that has ruled that certain human lives are property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Twice.

.
so says someone that had a vasectomy to provide the same ... bing, when are you going to show us the letter from your priest giving you permission for what you had done to yourself.

 

[BreezeWood]

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

.

How do I know this?

no one cares, your asking the question is proof enough of its groundless validity. your version is not written in the document itself making it a moot point no different than any other assertion than the face value of the statement itself.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

obviously a state religion is forbidden including presently at the state level due to the ratification of the 14th amendment.

give it a shot bing pass an amendment to make christianity the religion of this country - a joke at any level. it never happened and never will.

That’s a pretty stupid belief considering the same people who wrote the 14th amendment rejected applying the establishment clause to the states when they defeated the Blaine Amendment in the senate.

.

That’s a pretty stupid belief considering the same people who wrote the 14th amendment rejected applying the establishment clause to the states when they defeated the Blaine Amendment in the senate.

oops, 14th was enacted after the civil war, making up for what the christians prevented in securing the correct course for a free society. sorry bing, just draw up a new amendment with tramp as your leader you might get it passed.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#50 reply to #42 #43 The states chose Madison’s disestablishment of the Church from the state.


Post #42

The states were free to establish state religions. The federal government was not.

But now we know that you know that Hamilton’s Intent was to disestablish the states from religion.

That’s important because I believe established state Christianity is cited as evidence for Christian Nationalists to call America a Christian nation.

So based on 1807 status with 3 States not yet disestablished, Christian Nationalists would
be more accurate to say America is 0.23% a Christian Nation.

Post #43

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

So the ‘majority did rule’ in the Senate that day, but at least we know that you know all about Madison’s Intent. And I’m sure you know Madison won the Presidency in 1801 and served two terms through 1809.

Sse “Memorial and Remonstrance “(1785) be low.

Madison had plenty of political victories over establishment Christians like Patrick Henry. But during his presidency, all but three states were disestablished.

More on Madison Intent:
Memorial and Remonstrance - Bill of Rights Institute​

In 1784, Patrick Henry proposed a general tax called the Bill Establishing a Provision for Teachers [Ministers] of the Christian Religion. Similar to some New England state laws, citizens would choose which Christian church received their support, or the money could go to a general fund to be distributed by the state legislature.​

James Madison was a vocal opponent of the bill, writing the Memorial and Remonstrance (1785) opposing the proposed tax. He asserted that religion could not be forced on people, and that state support actually corrupted religion. Government properly limited, rather, would promote a civil society in which people of different faiths could maintain their beliefs according to their own consciences. Madison’s side won the debate and Henry’s religious assessments bill did not pass.​

Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments​

By James Madison​

To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia A Memorial and Remonstrance​

We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled “A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion,” and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,​

1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that Religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.” [Virginia Declaration of Rights, art. 16] The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, who enters into any subordinate Association, must always do it with a reservation of his duty to the General Authority; much more must every man who becomes a member of any particular Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no mans right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.
​

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#51 reply to #42

The establishment clause was written expressly to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

Will you at least start claiming at this point that
America was founded as a half-Christian Nation? And by 1807 America was founded as a one-quarter Christian Nation.

 

[Bezukhov]

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

 

[ding]

The 14th Amendment has been the most abused Amendment of them all. But what can you expect from a court that has ruled that certain human lives are property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Twice.

.
so says someone that had a vasectomy to provide the same ... bing, when are you going to show us the letter from your priest giving you permission for what you had done to yourself.

Vasectomies, contraception, tying tubes etc, do not end a human life.

 

[ding]

How do I know this? Because Hamilton originally drafted the establishment clause to include states but that was defeated in the senate. Just as the Blaine amendment was defeated in the senate when he tried to apply the establishment clause to the states.

.

How do I know this?

no one cares, your asking the question is proof enough of its groundless validity. your version is not written in the document itself making it a moot point no different than any other assertion than the face value of the statement itself.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

obviously a state religion is forbidden including presently at the state level due to the ratification of the 14th amendment.

give it a shot bing pass an amendment to make christianity the religion of this country - a joke at any level. it never happened and never will.

That’s a pretty stupid belief considering the same people who wrote the 14th amendment rejected applying the establishment clause to the states when they defeated the Blaine Amendment in the senate.

.

That’s a pretty stupid belief considering the same people who wrote the 14th amendment rejected applying the establishment clause to the states when they defeated the Blaine Amendment in the senate.

oops, 14th was enacted after the civil war, making up for what the christians prevented in securing the correct course for a free society. sorry bing, just draw up a new amendment with tramp as your leader you might get it passed.

Christians fought other Christians to end slavery. Christians fought other Christians to end WWII. Your view of Christians is skewed by your political dogma. Just as your hatred towards Christians is skewed.

Your understanding of history is seriously flawed. The Democratic Party was responsible for expanding and perpetuating slavery, racism, segregation and bigotry. The Republican Party was responsible for ending them. So it isn’t Christianity that was responsible. It was the political affiliation that was responsible.

 

[ding]

But now we know that you know that Hamilton’s Intent was to disestablish the states from religion.

That’s important because I believe established state Christianity is cited as evidence for Christian Nationalists to call America a Christian nation.

Ummm, I’ve known it for over ten years. You are the one who just found it out.

As to your assumption that Christianity is cited as evidence for Christian Nationalists to call America a Christian nation, that’s stupid. I say that America was founded as a Christian nation because the evidence for this is overwhelming. And I don’t consider myself a Christian Nationalist, whatever the fuck that means.

I suspect that’s just you lashing out because you are getting your ass beat.

 

[ding]

So based on 1807 status with 3 States not yet disestablished, Christian Nationalists would
be more accurate to say America is 0.23% a Christian Nation.

Believe whatever you want. It doesn’t change the fact that the establishment clause was expressly written to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions.

 

[ding]

So the ‘majority did rule’ in the Senate that day, but at least we know that you know all about Madison’s Intent. And I’m sure you know Madison won the Presidency in 1801 and served two terms through 1809.

Sse “Memorial and Remonstrance “(1785) be low.

Madison had plenty of political victories over establishment Christians like Patrick Henry. But during his presidency, all but three states were disestablished.

I don’t need to see it. I already knew that the state’s abandoned their established religions of their own accord.

so what?

 

[ding]

#51 reply to #42

The establishment clause was written expressly to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

Will you at least start claiming at this point that
America was founded as a half-Christian Nation? And by 1807 America was founded as a one-quarter Christian Nation.

Why should I? America was only founded once.

And my saying America was founded as a Christian nation doesn’t mean I believe or wish it was founded as a theocracy. I don’t. It means that it was founded by a people - as in all the people - who were overwhelmingly Christian. Whose values and principles were based on Christian values and principles.

 

[sparky]

Your understanding of history is seriously flawed.

Then you may endure mine as well

Europe , up through the middle ages and to the founding of the 'new world' looked more like today's middle east in those times , monarchies led by the nose via theocratic influence.

Keep in mind we've a timeline , 1500 to 1776 is a LONG time. So at first the English and Spanish who ventured across the pond were the church's missionaries, albeit explorers with self enlightened interest.

The then theme was 'join or die', along with a historic morbidity mortality count

Understand here these first two centuries would not have ventured out w/out the church's blessings, and would not be welcomed back w/out proving it had done so

Many went as far to describe the 'new world' as the promised land, which of course created them as 'the chosen ones' privy via the almighty to it , juden or not....

Yes it took America 3 centuries to finally rid itself of theocratic influence , theocratic insanity , along with the notion that all morality hails exclusively from celestial sources filtered through some terrestrial translator

the fact that religmo's to this very day engage in this tired old christian nation baloney paints them disingenuous if not a traitors to their very 'faith' wishing it to assume control

the minute we no longer subscribe to secularism, we are done as a nation

~S~

 

[ding]

Your understanding of history is seriously flawed.

Then you may endure mine as well

Europe , up through the middle ages and to the founding of the 'new world' looked more like today's middle east in those times , monarchies led by the nose via theocratic influence.

Keep in mind we've a timeline , 1500 to 1776 is a LONG time. So at first the English and Spanish who ventured across the pond were the church's missionaries, albeit explorers with self enlightened interest.

The then theme was 'join or die', along with a historic morbidity mortality count

Understand here these first two centuries would not have ventured out w/out the church's blessings, and would not be welcomed back w/out proving it had done so

Many went as far to describe the 'new world' as the promised land, which of course created them as 'the chosen ones' privy via the almighty to it , juden or not....

Yes it took America 3 centuries to finally rid itself of theocratic influence , theocratic insanity , along with the notion that all morality hails exclusively from celestial sources filtered through some terrestrial translator

the fact that religmo's to this very day engage in this tired old christian nation baloney paints them disingenuous if not a traitors to their very 'faith' wishing it to assume control

the minute we no longer subscribe to secularism, we are done as a nation

~S~

Seems you too have thrown the baby out with the bath water.