America was founded as an enlightened multicultural Nation

[whutTHEYsay]

#21 reply to #19

Only in so far as the oaths required by those states at that time to hold public office.

So, if you were of Jewish or of Catholic Faith in 1787 America, would you want a mono-culturist named Luther Martin, and a NC politician-clergyman, or speaker at the New Hampshire ratifying convention, prevailing at the Constitutional Convention or the multiculturalism team of Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison prevailing over what you must and must not believe nb and practice in public.

Morton Borden: Luther Martin of Maryland, a delegate to the Philadelphia Convention in 1787, complained to no avail "that in a Christian country, it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." And a group of Massachusetts and New Hampshire Presbyterian ministers told George Washington that "we should not have been alone in rejoicing to have some explicit acknowledgement of THE TRUE ONLY GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST who he has sent, inserted somewhere in the Magna Carta of our country."
Morton Borden is a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of Jews, Turks, and Infidels (University of North Carolina Press, 1984).

“....a North Carolina politician-clergyman predicted that the absence of a Christian oath for officeholders amounted to "an invitation for Jews and pagans of every kind to come among us. At some future period, this might endanger the character of the United States."

“And a speaker at the New Hampshire ratifying convention suggested that at least the president ought to be compelled to take a proper religious oath. Otherwise, "a Turk, a Jew, a Roman Catholic, and what is worse than all, a Universalist, may be President of the United States." “

Faith of Our Founders
​

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#22. Are there any Christian Nationalists out there who can bring historical facts to this thread that deny or dispute that, Deism, Theism and Unitarianism, in the enlightened minds of sufficient numbers of our founding fathers is what brought about the new concept of separation of church and state and the beginning of multi-culturism having a prominent place in American culture.

 

[ding]

#21 reply to #19

Only in so far as the oaths required by those states at that time to hold public office.

So, if you were of Jewish or of Catholic Faith in 1787 America, would you want a mono-culturist named Luther Martin, and a NC politician-clergyman, or speaker at the New Hampshire ratifying convention, prevailing at the Constitutional Convention or the multiculturalism team of Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison prevailing over what you must and must not believe nb and practice in public.

Morton Borden: Luther Martin of Maryland, a delegate to the Philadelphia Convention in 1787, complained to no avail "that in a Christian country, it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism." And a group of Massachusetts and New Hampshire Presbyterian ministers told George Washington that "we should not have been alone in rejoicing to have some explicit acknowledgement of THE TRUE ONLY GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST who he has sent, inserted somewhere in the Magna Carta of our country."
Morton Borden is a professor of history at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of Jews, Turks, and Infidels (University of North Carolina Press, 1984).

“....a North Carolina politician-clergyman predicted that the absence of a Christian oath for officeholders amounted to "an invitation for Jews and pagans of every kind to come among us. At some future period, this might endanger the character of the United States."

“And a speaker at the New Hampshire ratifying convention suggested that at least the president ought to be compelled to take a proper religious oath. Otherwise, "a Turk, a Jew, a Roman Catholic, and what is worse than all, a Universalist, may be President of the United States." “

Faith of Our Founders
​

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

 

[ding]

#20 reply to #18

I am telling you the different sects of Christianity does not support your belief in the country being founded on multiculturalism. Diversity of a specific religion is not multiculturalism.

I’m not telling you the fact that different sects of Christianity existed is what supports the fact that the country was founded on multiculturalism. I’m telling you that multiculturalism was in fact present within the enlightened liberal minds of at least half the founders. So much so that the ‘rigid and religiously correct’ minded founders accepted the enlightened way, which made religious toleration and multiculturalism the American way from the founding to the present day.

Christian nationalists want to take America back to what existed prior to ratification of the Constitution. White, Protestant, male dominated, fully Protestant Christian society. That set up was eliminated on a national level with signing of the Constitution. And then took hold state by state as each one of them disestablished the churches from the state as time went by.

Acceptance of diversity in religion and the actual restraint on the power of Protestant Christianity in 18th Century colonial America that granted freedom of religion to Jewish and Catholic communities was an unprecedented advancement for multiculturalism hardly seen in the world in its time.

They all had the same culture. Different religious beliefs isn’t in and of itself multiculturalism. That’s true even for deists.

the culture was overwhelmingly Christian.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#25 reply to #24

They all had the same culture.

#25. Are you going on record saying that Catholic, Hebrew and Protestant religions all shared the same culture in Colonial America?

Are you saying that Diest rational religion/philosophy among many of the leading founders following the ratification of the US Constitution changed nothing in American culture that benefited Catholics, Protestant and the Jewish people to living together as equals?


Do you agree that Catholics and Protestants fractured and have a history of killing each other over cultural dominance for centuries?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#26 reply to #23

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

I had asked in Post #16 “Are you saying the US Constitution does not protect a Hebrew, Muslim or Atheist’s right to practice their religion in a State where White Protestant Christianity remained the established state “religion.“ And you replied in Post #19.

Only in so far as the oaths required by those states at that time to hold public office. At least that is my understanding.

Your understanding is correct. And those outdated oaths really didn’t negatively impact the two religious minorities of Catholic and Jewish people and atheists, because they were all a long way off from ever holding public office in the dominant Protestant culture.

The reality is both religions had achieved equal status under the protection of the US Constitutions. A huge historical event for minority religious people. Thanks to Deism and liberal modern rational thinking .

So your answer that the CONSTITUTION did establish religious freedom for Catholics, Hebrew, Muslim and Atheist’s made me glad to hear you understand what happened.

So my follow up was to reiterate what the Jeffersonian/Madison Constitution did for religious minorities, despite that some states held on to their oath requirement until they naturally and all on their own withered on the vine and fell away.

Because the Constitution granted such protection I want to make sure it sinks in because that is one of the precise reasons why it is incorrect to say that America was founded as Christian Nation. Because it was not.

 

[BreezeWood]

#20 reply to #18

I am telling you the different sects of Christianity does not support your belief in the country being founded on multiculturalism. Diversity of a specific religion is not multiculturalism.

I’m not telling you the fact that different sects of Christianity existed is what supports the fact that the country was founded on multiculturalism. I’m telling you that multiculturalism was in fact present within the enlightened liberal minds of at least half the founders. So much so that the ‘rigid and religiously correct’ minded founders accepted the enlightened way, which made religious toleration and multiculturalism the American way from the founding to the present day.

Christian nationalists want to take America back to what existed prior to ratification of the Constitution. White, Protestant, male dominated, fully Protestant Christian society. That set up was eliminated on a national level with signing of the Constitution. And then took hold state by state as each one of them disestablished the churches from the state as time went by.

Acceptance of diversity in religion and the actual restraint on the power of Protestant Christianity in 18th Century colonial America that granted freedom of religion to Jewish and Catholic communities was an unprecedented advancement for multiculturalism hardly seen in the world in its time.

They all had the same culture. Different religious beliefs isn’t in and of itself multiculturalism. That’s true even for deists.

the culture was overwhelmingly Christian.

.

Different religious beliefs isn’t in and of itself multiculturalism.

why it was made so by the u s constitution ... is the point of the thread.

beliefs were made multicultural by the 1st amendment through the elimination of subornation to any one particular religion, christianity.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#28 reply to #18

I am telling you the different sects of Christianity does not support your belief in the country being founded on multiculturalism.

I did mention Judaism. And ultimately I am talking about all religions and all the non-religious as well. In context going back 200 years I don’t see Protestants and Catholics as culturally connected but differing Christian sects as they are today. The split back then was enormous.

I find the ideal of multiculturalism in our first four Presidents and mentioning that seems to bring ridicule and disbelief from Protestant Christian nationalists

The first four Presidents put their ideals in action with the US Constitution. Surely, they learned and acted on liberal enlightenment ideas rather than any particular form of Christian religious dogma.

When Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison were young educated men, they must have learned of lthe previous two centuries of religious wars between Protestants and Catholics. That reality gave them the perfect example of what to avoid when founding a new Republic. It all makes sense if you are willing to think of it that way.

The European wars of religion were a series of religious wars which were waged in Europein the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries.[1][2]The wars, which were fought after the Protestant Reformation began in 1517,

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#29 reply to #4 - Were more colonists churched or unchurched in 1776?

#4 reply to #1 & 2 .

thankfully, the bible belt's influence in the actual writing of the u s constitution was averted from establishing a religious, christian state and their limited influence remained to establish with the constitution's final enactment a primarily secular document.

Much of Christian Nationalism’s agenda comes from the Bible Belt. The Southern Baptists form the majority of the Belt. There was no Bible Belt prior to the US Constitution. The Bible Belt grew in leaps and bounds after Religious freedom was empowered by Madison and Jefferson in the Constitution. The Danbury Baptist’s recorded their appreciation in this letter to Jefferson;

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty‐‐that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals‐‐that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions‐‐that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek after power and gain under the pretense of government and religion should reproach their fellow men‐‐should reproach their order magistrate, as a enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dare not, assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make laws to govern the kingdom of Christ. Letters between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists - Bill of Rights Institute
​

Another reason the concept of a BIBLE Belt did not influence getting Christianity mentioned in the Constitution etc was because the majority of colonists throughout the revolutionary times were unchurched.

“The First Amendment was specifically designed to prohibit established churches, and at the Constitutional Convention attempts to write in some sort of nominal support for Christianity always failed. In addition, people at the time were distinctly "unchurched." The best estimates indicate that only 10% to 15% of the population actually attended church services.”
States a Christian Nation?” Austin Cline Updated July 27, 2018

It’s a Myth That America Is a Christian Nation
​

I’ll see if there are any Christian Nationalist objections to this post before adding further to it.

 

[ding]

Are you going on record saying that Catholic, Hebrew and Protestant religions all shared the same culture in Colonial America?

Yes. Shades of grey.

all you have to do is look at the founding statements of universities and the textbook that were used to educate to see the influence of the Christian culture.

Can you show me a similar example of the so called deism culture?

 

[ding]

Are you saying that Diest rational religion/philosophy among many of the leading founders following the ratification of the US Constitution changed nothing in American culture that benefited Catholics, Protestant and the Jewish people to living together as equals?

I am saying that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

 

[ding]

Do you agree that Catholics and Protestants fractured and have a history of killing each other over cultural dominance for centuries?

Yes, and they also have a history of working together. So what? What does that have to do with anything?

There will always be conflicts between groups. That doesn’t prove that America was founded in multiculturalism.

 

[ding]

#26 reply to #23

What does that have to do with what I wrote?

I had asked in Post #16 “Are you saying the US Constitution does not protect a Hebrew, Muslim or Atheist’s right to practice their religion in a State where White Protestant Christianity remained the established state “religion.“ And you replied in Post #19.

Only in so far as the oaths required by those states at that time to hold public office. At least that is my understanding.

Your understanding is correct. And those outdated oaths really didn’t negatively impact the two religious minorities of Catholic and Jewish people and atheists, because they were all a long way off from ever holding public office in the dominant Protestant culture.

The reality is both religions had achieved equal status under the protection of the US Constitutions. A huge historical event for minority religious people. Thanks to Deism and liberal modern rational thinking .

So your answer that the CONSTITUTION did establish religious freedom for Catholics, Hebrew, Muslim and Atheist’s made me glad to hear you understand what happened.

So my follow up was to reiterate what the Jeffersonian/Madison Constitution did for religious minorities, despite that some states held on to their oath requirement until they naturally and all on their own withered on the vine and fell away.

Because the Constitution granted such protection I want to make sure it sinks in because that is one of the precise reasons why it is incorrect to say that America was founded as Christian Nation. Because it was not.

Again, religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

 

[ding]

#20 reply to #18

I am telling you the different sects of Christianity does not support your belief in the country being founded on multiculturalism. Diversity of a specific religion is not multiculturalism.

I’m not telling you the fact that different sects of Christianity existed is what supports the fact that the country was founded on multiculturalism. I’m telling you that multiculturalism was in fact present within the enlightened liberal minds of at least half the founders. So much so that the ‘rigid and religiously correct’ minded founders accepted the enlightened way, which made religious toleration and multiculturalism the American way from the founding to the present day.

Christian nationalists want to take America back to what existed prior to ratification of the Constitution. White, Protestant, male dominated, fully Protestant Christian society. That set up was eliminated on a national level with signing of the Constitution. And then took hold state by state as each one of them disestablished the churches from the state as time went by.

Acceptance of diversity in religion and the actual restraint on the power of Protestant Christianity in 18th Century colonial America that granted freedom of religion to Jewish and Catholic communities was an unprecedented advancement for multiculturalism hardly seen in the world in its time.

They all had the same culture. Different religious beliefs isn’t in and of itself multiculturalism. That’s true even for deists.

the culture was overwhelmingly Christian.

.

Different religious beliefs isn’t in and of itself multiculturalism.

why it was made so by the u s constitution ... is the point of the thread.

beliefs were made multicultural by the 1st amendment through the elimination of subornation to any one particular religion, christianity.

Wrong. Religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

Show me examples of this so called multiculturalism in early America. You can’t.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#35 reply to #39

Can you show me a similar example of the so called deism culture?

yes. The Declaration of Independence with ‘ Nature’s God’ referenced.

The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Allen, Ethan. Reason, the Only Oracle of Man: Or, A Compenduous System of Natural Religion Boston: JP Mendum, 1854. A book by Ethan Allen

“While Christians and Enlightenment philosophers each had faith, the nature of their respective faiths differed. Christians emphasized faith in Scripture while philosophes put their faith in science, nature’s God, and secular progress (natural theologians bridged the gap between them). “

7 Enlightenment & Great Awakening | History Hub

Enlightenment Religion

“But the widespread existence in 18th-century America of a school of religious thought called Deism complicates the actual beliefs of the Founders. Drawing from the scientific and philosophical work of such figures as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Isaac Newton, and John Locke, Deists argued that human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs. In his widely read The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:”​

“I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and in endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.​

Thus, Deism inevitably subverted orthodox Christianity. Persons influenced by the movement had little reason to read the Bible, to pray, to attend church, or to participate in such rites as baptism, Holy Communion, and the laying on of hands (confirmation) by bishops. With the notable exceptions of Abigail Adams and Dolley Madison, Deism seems to have had little effect on women. For example, Martha Washington, the daughters of Thomas Jefferson, and Elizabeth Kortright Monroe and her daughters seem to have held orthodox Christian beliefs.​

But Deistic thought was immensely popular in colleges from the middle of the 18th into the 19th century. Thus, it influenced many educated (as well as uneducated) males of the Revolutionary generation. Although such men would generally continue their public affiliation with Christianity after college, they might inwardly hold unorthodox religious views. Depending on the extent to which Americans of Christian background were influenced by Deism, their religious beliefs would fall into three categories: non-Christian Deism, Christian Deism, and orthodox Christianity.
​

I’ll add Honest Abe for good measure:

UPDATED: JUL 8, 2019 | ORIGINAL: JUN 24, 2019
Was Abraham Lincoln an Atheist?
As a young man, Lincoln openly admitted to his lack of faith. As a politician, he spoke about God but refused to say he was a Christian.
​

Many think President Lincoln was a Deist. I accept that rather than Atheist.

 

[ding]

#35 reply to #39

Can you show me a similar example of the so called deism culture?

yes. The Declaration of Independence with ‘ Nature’s God’ referenced.

The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

Allen, Ethan. Reason, the Only Oracle of Man: Or, A Compenduous System of Natural Religion Boston: JP Mendum, 1854. A book by Ethan Allen

“While Christians and Enlightenment philosophers each had faith, the nature of their respective faiths differed. Christians emphasized faith in Scripture while philosophes put their faith in science, nature’s God, and secular progress (natural theologians bridged the gap between them). “

7 Enlightenment & Great Awakening | History Hub

Enlightenment Religion

“But the widespread existence in 18th-century America of a school of religious thought called Deism complicates the actual beliefs of the Founders. Drawing from the scientific and philosophical work of such figures as Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Isaac Newton, and John Locke, Deists argued that human experience and rationality—rather than religious dogma and mystery—determine the validity of human beliefs. In his widely read The Age of Reason, Thomas Paine, the principal American exponent of Deism, called Christianity “a fable.” Paine, the protégé of Benjamin Franklin, denied “that the Almighty ever did communicate anything to man, by…speech,…language, or…vision.” Postulating a distant deity whom he called “Nature’s God” (a term also used in the Declaration of Independence), Paine declared in a “profession of faith”:”​

“I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and in endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.​

Thus, Deism inevitably subverted orthodox Christianity. Persons influenced by the movement had little reason to read the Bible, to pray, to attend church, or to participate in such rites as baptism, Holy Communion, and the laying on of hands (confirmation) by bishops. With the notable exceptions of Abigail Adams and Dolley Madison, Deism seems to have had little effect on women. For example, Martha Washington, the daughters of Thomas Jefferson, and Elizabeth Kortright Monroe and her daughters seem to have held orthodox Christian beliefs.​

But Deistic thought was immensely popular in colleges from the middle of the 18th into the 19th century. Thus, it influenced many educated (as well as uneducated) males of the Revolutionary generation. Although such men would generally continue their public affiliation with Christianity after college, they might inwardly hold unorthodox religious views. Depending on the extent to which Americans of Christian background were influenced by Deism, their religious beliefs would fall into three categories: non-Christian Deism, Christian Deism, and orthodox Christianity.
​

I’ll add Honest Abe for good measure:

UPDATED: JUL 8, 2019 | ORIGINAL: JUN 24, 2019
Was Abraham Lincoln an Atheist?
As a young man, Lincoln openly admitted to his lack of faith. As a politician, he spoke about God but refused to say he was a Christian.
​

Many think President Lincoln was a Deist. I accept that rather than Atheist.

Not exactly an example of deism in the culture.

Can you provide an example in the society that shows multiculturalism as it pertains specifically to deism?

For instance I can point to the New England Primer, the founding statements of the universities and de Tocqueville’s eyewitness account.

do you have anything like that?

 

[whutTHEYsay]

#37 reply to #32

I asked in post #25

Are you saying that Diest rational religion/philosophy among many of the leading founders following the ratification of the US Constitution changed nothing in American culture that benefited Catholics, Protestant and the Jewish people to living together as equals?

#31 Reply to #25

I am saying that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

Does that mean that you agree that the
First Amendment’s primary intent is to prevent religious oppression by the dominant religion in the nation which was Protestant Christianity at the time it was written? And do you agree that all believers in all the world’s religions and all non-believers of any type being in the minority are the citizens intended to be protected from the tyranny of the majority?

Or do you believe the world's other religions and atheists were not on the Founders’ mind when they enacted the First Amendment? Was the First Amendment established to exclusively eliminate rivalry and conflict within the differing sects/denominations of Christianity and only Christianity?

 

[ding]

#37 reply to #32

I asked in post #25

Are you saying that Diest rational religion/philosophy among many of the leading founders following the ratification of the US Constitution changed nothing in American culture that benefited Catholics, Protestant and the Jewish people to living together as equals?

#31 Reply to #25

I am saying that religious freedom is not a sign of multiculturalism. It is a sign that they were against religious oppression.

Does that mean that you agree that the
First Amendment’s primary intent is to prevent religious oppression by the dominant religion in the nation which was Protestant Christianity at the time it was written? And do you agree that all believers in all the world’s religions and all non-believers of any type being in the minority are the citizens intended to be protected from the tyranny of the majority?

Or do you believe the world's other religions and atheists were not on the Founders’ mind when they enacted the First Amendment? Was the First Amendment established to exclusively eliminate rivalry and conflict within the differing sects/denominations of Christianity and only Christianity?

Dude, I was pretty clear in what I said. Go back and reread it.

 

[ding]

The establishment clause was written expressly to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

See?

 

[mudwhistle]

#1. We will start with the Puritans

The first group of “Mayflower” Christians to set foot on what was to become Massachusetts’s soil were separatists meaning they left the Church of England behind. Those separatists were eventually absorbed into the following groups of non-separatist Puritans who under Congregationalist Churches maintained a loyal relationship with the Church of England until the revolt against King Charles in 1776 was declared.

In no way should the early separatist Puritans be confused with the Revolutionary War Separatists. Many of the 1776 separatists were not Christian in a Puritan/Calvinistic sense at all. They were more philosophically aligned with the modern liberal mindset of the times when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

“So who, then, were the Puritans? While the Separatists believed that the only way to live according to Biblical precepts was to leave the Church of England entirely, the Puritans thought they could reform the church from within. Sometimes called non-separating Puritans, this less radical group shared a lot in common with the Separatists, particularly a form of worship and self-organization called “the congregational way.” https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences​

Yep.....most of America snuck in and sat on the asses to collect welfare as political refugees.