America used to give a damn redux

[orogenicman]

For some reason, that other thread was closed will I was in the middle of a response, and wasn't given a chance to post.

Folks, I don't know what you guys expected after Apollo, but the fact is that near the end of the program, public support went belly up, as it was apparent we had achieved our cold war goals three times over. And remember, Apollo was, for all intents and purposes, a cold war project. Add to that the very high cost of the program and the fact that we were fighting a very costly war in Vietnam, and it became apparent to everyone that it's days were numbered.

And I completely disagree with the notion that we aren't doing great things in space. We are in space RIGHT NOW. And have been continuously (24/7) since 2001. Before we go island hopping from planetary body to planetary body, or even build a colony somewhere (say, the Moon or Mars), we must first learn how to safely live in space. We aren't there yet. Radiation is a significant obstacle to long-term spaceflight. The Van Allen belts, cosmic rays and radiation from the sun are significant issues we have to learn how to address before we make any long term human commitments in space. We've built this new spacecraft that I think will do some incredible things eventually, and are working on a new heavy lift vehicle that will give us significant capabilities. What we haven't yet addressed is how to live in space while travelling somewhere (habitation module), how to land a man-rated vehicle on the surface (descent vehicle) of a significant body other than the Moon, how to live on a surface (another habitation module), and how to get off a surface (ascent vehicle) other than the Moon with a man-rated vehicle. These are all very significant engineering issues that must be meshed out. 20 years (mid 2030s) to go to Mars may sound like a lot of time, but considering the goals and the challenges those goals have laid at our feet, it isn't. It really isn't.

And the space station, as unglamorous as that is to a lot of people, is helping us with a lot of that and more. The research being done there today is groundbreaking, Yes, NASA isn't moving at Apollo speed with many of it's programs. But then, we aren't in a race with anyone, either. The days of blank checks at NASA have been over for decades, folks, and I doubt that you will ever see that again. But we are making progress, so give them a little credit for the accomplishments they have made with the budget that has been handed to them. Okay? What we are doing in space these days is real breakthrough science. Who else has landed multiple rovers on Mars? Who else has sent multiple probes to Jupiter and Saturn? Who else has sent probes to Uranus and Neptune? Who else has sent probes to Pluto, and possibly other destinations in the Kuiper belt? Who else has a probe around Mercury? Who else has sent probes outside of the solar system? NASA doesn't get the credit it deserves. It is high time they did. Instead of whining about it, how about supporting them?

 

[TheOldSchool]

America became a land of pussies after Apollo. We achieved the unthinkable; landing on the moon... and now all we care about is ISIS taking over... what is it again? Kobani? Wtf is that?

Oh well it doesn't matter. Did you hear about McDonald's new menu?

McDonald s Doing New Menu Test - Business Insider

 

[orogenicman]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

 

[TheOldSchool]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

 

[orogenicman]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

 

[S.J.]

We need a president, a real one.

 

[TheOldSchool]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

I'm working on it man. That's why I started the other thread. NASA is one of the most important Agencies in the U.S. It should be regarded way above agencies like the FBI and CIA.

 

[Bfgrn]

"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win"

To be sure, we are behind, and will be behind for some time in manned flight. But we do not intend to stay behind, and in this decade, we shall make up and move ahead.

The growth of our science and education will be enriched by new knowledge of our universe and environment, by new techniques of learning and mapping and observation, by new tools and computers for industry, medicine, the home as well as the school. Technical institutions, such as Rice, will reap the harvest of these gains.

And finally, the space effort itself, while still in its infancy, has already created a great number of new companies, and tens of thousands of new jobs. Space and related industries are generating new demands in investment and skilled personnel, and this city and this State, and this region, will share greatly in this growth. What was once the furthest outpost on the old frontier of the West will be the furthest outpost on the new frontier of science and space. Houston, your City of Houston, with its Manned Spacecraft Center, will become the heart of a large scientific and engineering community. During the next 5 years the National Aeronautics and Space Administration expects to double the number of scientists and engineers in this area, to increase its outlays for salaries and expenses to $60 million a year; to invest some $200 million in plant and laboratory facilities; and to direct or contract for new space efforts over $1 billion from this Center in this City.

To be sure, all this costs us all a good deal of money. This year's space budget is three times what it was in January 1961, and it is greater than the space budget of the previous eight years combined. That budget now stands at $5,400 million a year--a staggering sum, though somewhat less than we pay for cigarettes and cigars every year. Space expenditures will soon rise some more, from 40 cents per person per week to more than 50 cents a week for every man, woman and child in the United Stated, for we have given this program a high national priority--even though I realize that this is in some measure an act of faith and vision, for we do not now know what benefits await us. But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold.

However, I think we're going to do it, and I think that we must pay what needs to be paid. I don't think we ought to waste any money, but I think we ought to do the job. And this will be done in the decade of the sixties. It may be done while some of you are still here at school at this college and university. It will be done during the term of office of some of the people who sit here on this platform. But it will be done. And it will be done before the end of this decade.

Watch and hear this speech...1962-09-12 Rice University - John F. Kennedy Presidential Library Museum

 

[orogenicman]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

I'm working on it man. That's why I started the other thread. NASA is one of the most important Agencies in the U.S. It should be regarded way above agencies like the FBI and CIA.

I don't know about that, but I agree that it needs to get more support than it gets. NASA is at the forefront of science in this country. But they need more public support. And we can all help them in that regard.

 

[orogenicman]

Kennedy's speech, while a historic achievement, is old news, and not entirely relevant to today's efforts. We don't choose to go to deep space because it is hard. We choose to go because there are tangible scientific and possibly economic goals to achieve. And because, shit, it's just so damn cool.

 

[Bfgrn]

Kennedy's speech, while a historic achievement, is old news, and not entirely relevant to today's efforts. We don't choose to go to deep space because it is hard. We choose to go because there are tangible scientific and possibly economic goals to achieve. And because, shit, it's just so damn cool.

Old news? Without that speech we wouldn't be having this conversation.

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

 

[TheOldSchool]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

I'm working on it man. That's why I started the other thread. NASA is one of the most important Agencies in the U.S. It should be regarded way above agencies like the FBI and CIA.

I don't know about that, but I agree that it needs to get more support than it gets. NASA is at the forefront of science in this country. But they need more public support. And we can all help them in that regard.

NASA changed the world. It was the dagger in the chest of the Soviet Union. And then we killed it. And now it has to ask Russia for permission to put someone in outer space. It's pathetic.

 

[Bfgrn]

President John F. Kennedy's last formal speech
JFK's last public words.


The last formal public speech of a man or woman can often and unexpectedly provide the most telling comments, even if only by a small story.

His desk at the White House empty, his travels to Texas, confirmed - on November 22nd, 1963 President John F. Kennedy offered these comments within his speech. Though focused on the "Aerospace Medical Center" in San Antonio, Mr. Kennedy's point is applicable to all of us.... on this side of the curtain of life - a curtain from which he would exit within a day's time. Here's a segment:

"Frank O'Connor, the Irish writer, tells in one of his books how, as a boy, he and his friends would make their way across the countryside, and when they came to an orchard wall that seemed too high and too doubtful to try and too difficult to permit their voyage to continue, they took off their hats and tossed them over the wall--and then they had no choice but to follow them.


This Nation has tossed its cap over the wall of space, and we have no choice but to follow it. Whatever the difficulties, they will be overcome. Whatever the hazards, they must be guarded against. With the vital help of this Aerospace Medical Center, with the help of all those who labor in the space endeavor, with the help and support of all Americans, we will climb this wall with safety and with speed-and we shall then explore the wonders on the other side."

 

[Flopper]

For some reason, that other thread was closed will I was in the middle of a response, and wasn't given a chance to post.

Folks, I don't know what you guys expected after Apollo, but the fact is that near the end of the program, public support went belly up, as it was apparent we had achieved our cold war goals three times over. And remember, Apollo was, for all intents and purposes, a cold war project. Add to that the very high cost of the program and the fact that we were fighting a very costly war in Vietnam, and it became apparent to everyone that it's days were numbered.

And I completely disagree with the notion that we aren't doing great things in space. We are in space RIGHT NOW. And have been continuously (24/7) since 2001. Before we go island hopping from planetary body to planetary body, or even build a colony somewhere (say, the Moon or Mars), we must first learn how to safely live in space. We aren't there yet. Radiation is a significant obstacle to long-term spaceflight. The Van Allen belts, cosmic rays and radiation from the sun are significant issues we have to learn how to address before we make any long term human commitments in space. We've built this new spacecraft that I think will do some incredible things eventually, and are working on a new heavy lift vehicle that will give us significant capabilities. What we haven't yet addressed is how to live in space while travelling somewhere (habitation module), how to land a man-rated vehicle on the surface (descent vehicle) of a significant body other than the Moon, how to live on a surface (another habitation module), and how to get off a surface (ascent vehicle) other than the Moon with a man-rated vehicle. These are all very significant engineering issues that must be meshed out. 20 years (mid 2030s) to go to Mars may sound like a lot of time, but considering the goals and the challenges those goals have laid at our feet, it isn't. It really isn't.

And the space station, as unglamorous as that is to a lot of people, is helping us with a lot of that and more. The research being done there today is groundbreaking, Yes, NASA isn't moving at Apollo speed with many of it's programs. But then, we aren't in a race with anyone, either. The days of blank checks at NASA have been over for decades, folks, and I doubt that you will ever see that again. But we are making progress, so give them a little credit for the accomplishments they have made with the budget that has been handed to them. Okay? What we are doing in space these days is real breakthrough science. Who else has landed multiple rovers on Mars? Who else has sent multiple probes to Jupiter and Saturn? Who else has sent probes to Uranus and Neptune? Who else has sent probes to Pluto, and possibly other destinations in the Kuiper belt? Who else has a probe around Mercury? Who else has sent probes outside of the solar system? NASA doesn't get the credit it deserves. It is high time they did. Instead of whining about it, how about supporting them?

The costs of maned missions are huge compared to unmamed missions. With the advancements in robotics and other technology we can accomplish so much more than in years past with less expense and less danger to human life. The end goal has to be maned exploration but only after we have learned what we can from unmaned missions.

 

[BluesLegend]

I can think of $18 trillion reasons why we can't afford NASA and lots of other nice to haves. Maybe if the deadbeats in this country got off their welfare asses and worked we could pay off the debt and invest in stuff like this.

 

[orogenicman]

Kennedy's speech, while a historic achievement, is old news, and not entirely relevant to today's efforts. We don't choose to go to deep space because it is hard. We choose to go because there are tangible scientific and possibly economic goals to achieve. And because, shit, it's just so damn cool.

Old news? Without that speech we wouldn't be having this conversation.

A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde

Non-sequitur. As I said, it was a historic achievement, but our goals have changed. We didn't go to the Moon ostensibly to conduct scientific research, though we certainly did do that. We did it to beat the Russians because there was a perceived threat that they could occupy weaponize the Moon. Once it was realized that they weren't as far along as we thought, and that they couldn't really afford to continue and had scrapped their Moon program to concentrate on LEO goals, it wasn't so important a goal. What became more imperative was those LEO goals, because there were a lot of things relevant to the cold war that could be done there (i.e., spying, lobbing nukes, destroying satellites, e.t.c.). That is why the military was initially interested in the Space Shuttle, and ultimately why it was so expensive.

 

[orogenicman]

None of that is relevant to NASA, and I disagree that we have become a land of pussies. There are no pussies on the space station, and very few in our military. Do try to stay on topic.

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

I'm working on it man. That's why I started the other thread. NASA is one of the most important Agencies in the U.S. It should be regarded way above agencies like the FBI and CIA.

I don't know about that, but I agree that it needs to get more support than it gets. NASA is at the forefront of science in this country. But they need more public support. And we can all help them in that regard.

NASA changed the world. It was the dagger in the chest of the Soviet Union. And then we killed it. And now it has to ask Russia for permission to put someone in outer space. It's pathetic.

We don't live in those days anymore, dude. Boogey men are not a valid reason for spending 100 billion dollars on space anymore. It's the science, dummy. And that's what we are doing today.

 

[Statistikhengst]

We need a president, a real one.

We have one. You are just too much of a hack to realize it. Now, go back to sleep.

 

[FA_Q2]

I think I am. The majority of America doesn't give a damn. I wish we could come up with a reason for them to start to.

Well, the first thing you can do is to support their efforts. They can't do anything without public support. Support your local astronomy club. They provide outreach to the public, and nearly all of them are huge supporters of NASA. The more people out there talking to the public about the issues, the more the public will support NASA's efforts. It's a start.

I'm working on it man. That's why I started the other thread. NASA is one of the most important Agencies in the U.S. It should be regarded way above agencies like the FBI and CIA.

I don't know about that, but I agree that it needs to get more support than it gets. NASA is at the forefront of science in this country. But they need more public support. And we can all help them in that regard.

NASA changed the world. It was the dagger in the chest of the Soviet Union. And then we killed it. And now it has to ask Russia for permission to put someone in outer space. It's pathetic.

We don't live in those days anymore, dude. Boogey men are not a valid reason for spending 100 billion dollars on space anymore. It's the science, dummy. And that's what we are doing today.

Sure, but that does not take away from the simple (and pathetic) fact that we scrapped our space capabilities VERY prematurely. You don't cancel a program and then ask for its replacement - you get the replacement first.

the simple fact that we have to ask another nation to go into space is unacceptable. If we want to stay on the bleeding edge ahead of the world then we NEED to be capable. Oldschool is quite right in his assessment here and it has NOTHING to do with a 'boogeyman' but everything to do with Americans pushing the edge and staying ahead.

 

[FA_Q2]

I can think of $18 trillion reasons why we can't afford NASA and lots of other nice to haves. Maybe if the deadbeats in this country got off their welfare asses and worked we could pay off the debt and invest in stuff like this.

Then you are very short sighted.

Investment pays off in the long run and NASA is an excellent place to invest.

I can think of dozens of things to cut back in long before we get anywhere near NASA.