America Founded as a Christian Nation

[NotfooledbyW]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I gave the entire citing source and I'm tired of your lying ass claiming otherwise.

You posted in this forum less than ten percent of a full statement as if the writer’s intent was being conveyed. The writers intent was DIFFERENT FROM (those are the exact two words that you left out) what you conveyed to this forum.

That is a fact. A true Statement. And you cannot dispute it. It’s all in writing.

 

[Gdjjr]

As a non-believer in a god or what is purported to be a god's word, I could care less what religion the State was founded on, I care only why it was founded and the bottom line principle used in the declaring of independence and that political and religious people want to make it something it was never intended to be; controlled by a central command and control entity- and lets face it religion does the same thing, regardless of sect. Neither is healthy nor conducive to Liberty when it insists that the only way one can be happy is to follow certain, approved by a central command and control group, rules which are so many they can't be counted and change with the wind- as does religion as knowledge evolves, which is THE why "sects" developed which makes absolutely no sense since they all subscribe to the same dogma- sects and politics create divisiveness and spur disrespect for other points of view which can be readily witnessed in this thread and the many, many, many political threads anywhere, not just here. And yet, it is such a simple concept/philosophy, inherent rights, that the alleged academics or pseudo intellectuals can't wrap their minds around. It makes absolutely no sense to anyone who actually thinks for himself. Admittedly there aren't many around, but I will guarantee being dogmatic will not win hearts or minds and both are necessary to achieve a quality group. Yes, quality is subjective, but, so is ANY group.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. among them, was to lie.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I gave the entire citing source and I'm tired of your lying ass claiming otherwise.

You posted in this forum less than ten percent of a full statement as if the writer’s intent was being conveyed. The writers intent was DIFFERENT FROM (those are the exact two words that you left out) what you conveyed to this forum.

That is a fact. A true Statement. And you cannot dispute it. It’s all in writing.

You are a liar. You are a rotten, filthy liar. I quoted some words from Jefferson. I gave a reference to the ENTIRE CONTEXT of what he said. All you provided was just enough of that reference to support your position.

So, you're calling me a liar for something YOU did. You can come here, crying and somebody should get you some cheese to go with that wine (whine), but you have proven to be a liar.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Our resident troll has successfully taken control of this thread, derailed it and made it a referendum about Thomas Jefferson based off of ONE, single sentence that I quoted and I gave a citation to the reference so that you could read the entire context. This is a fact that the resident troll and pathological liar lies about and continues to lie about.

In post # 495 I cited Jefferson and the complete works from which my quote came from

In post # 537 NOTFOOLEDBYW gives a cite that tells you what portion of Jefferson's words support NOTFOOLEDBYW's fantastic claim

In posts 539, 541, 549, and 551 NOTFOOLEDBYW continues to call me a liar and he quotes a link that gives you only a portion of what Jefferson said while I'm quoting from complete works. I responded to the troll in post # 552, and NOTFOOLEDBYW is STILL calling me a liar... even blatantly lying while calling me a liar in post # 574 and continuing this pissing match in post #576.

This private pissing match doesn't have a damn thing to do with this thread. It is a private pissing match NOTFOOLEDBYW started with even more screwed up lies he began in post # 512. - which FWIW was an accusation he would not say to my face and I quote from him:

"Evangelical white Christians with their embrace of sordid Trumpism over decency and truth, will turn off more young people than ever from organized religion. And Porter leads the way to losing."

This POS made it personal, so let me lay it out for you:

I'm not your average Evangelical and I do not embrace Trump. Look up my views on Trump and gun control. Trump is the most anti-gun president in U.S. history. Trump on immigration - he's selling us Democrat horse dung wrapped in pretty paper.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has misjudged me and he cannot stand the fact that I am not fitting into his little mold. He isn't as smart as he thought and we're about to burst that bubble of his. This is a personal fight that he started. I'm about to start counter punching.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. amo
ng them, was to lie.

Check. I cited the letter to Benjamin Rush when I listed six facts. You are late.


Forget Jefferson. Are non-believers including humanist secularists who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ but stay married when they get married, don’t get tattoos, send their kids to college, serve others, don’t do drugs, consider Jesus’ moral teachings a good guide to life - Real Christians?

 

[ding]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. amo
ng them, was to lie.

Check. I cited the letter to Benjamin Rush when I listed six facts. You are late.


Forget Jefferson. Are non-believers including humanist secularists who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ but stay married when they get married, don’t get tattoos, send their kids to college, serve others, don’t do drugs, consider Jesus’ moral teachings a good guide to life - Real Christians?

Technically he didn’t come for those. He came for the sinners. Of course I am drastically oversimplifying what he came for. Only sick people need a doctor. Healthy people have no need, right? Didn’t he say as much?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

NOTFOOLEDBYW started with even more screwed up lies he began in post # 512. - which FWIW was an accusation he would not say to my face and I quote from him:

"Evangelical white Christians with their embrace of sordid Trumpism over decency and truth, will turn off more young people than ever from organized religion. And Porter leads the way to losing."

This POS made it personal, so let me lay it out for you:

I'm not your average Evangelical

Here are the relevant posts I was responding to Bezukhov

23930306

So what's the gist of this thread so far? America was a Christian nation and now it's not? Now why would He allow that to happen? Maybe He wasn't pleased with the way things were going when it was a Christian nation and decided on a change of management?

I never said PR is an Evangelical or a Trump supporter I said I think PR have is not
likely to understand the reality that the embedded secular nature or our nations’s institutions has been a significant positive influence for freedom of religion which increased Christian religiously since the early 1800s.

But now Christianity is losing market share to many young people under thirty.



23929667

Christians like Porter Rockwell have not and likely will never understand the reality that the embedded secular nature or our nations’s institutions has been a significant positive influence for freedom of religion which increased Christian religiously since the early 1800s. So avoid Christianity is losing market share to many young people under thirty

Evangelical white Christians with their embrace of sordid Trumpism over decency and truth, will turn off more young people than ever from organized religion. And Porter leads the way to losing.

I continued my opinion that Evangelical white Christians with their embrace of sordid Trumpism over decency and truth, will turn off more young people than ever from organized religion.

And I write that Porter leads the way to losing.

by that I mean leading a thread to convince the world that need to accept that America was founded as a Christian Nation.

i think it’s accurate.

Besides the Evangelicals Religious Right Trump Supporters appear to call for the same thing as PR. Not saying they are connected but they have a very familiar goal.

• Is the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so. Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Is America A Christian Nation?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

So counselor, your case rests on lies and semantics. If you don't see the word "Christian, Jesus, and / or Christ" in every single document (even if there are 100 inferences) you reject it out of hand. Then, your whole case rests on a short span of Jefferson's life, a word that is missing, and YOUR opinion as to what constitutes a Christian.

You've offered up a case predicated upon what Jefferson said over a span of, maybe a decade and a half of a life that spanned about 83 years. On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

“My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”

Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson was a linguist. So, while you fret over the use of the word Divinity, being a linguist Jefferson may have interpreted the word differently than you in his personal opinion. Yet you say that one sentence (in any context) doesn't mean what he said. Your claim is that Jefferson always believed one way and that his experiences with religion and the practices of churches had no impact on his evolving ideology. Even your own life should reveal the error in that mode of thinking. If Jefferson said one bad thing about religion, churches, the clergy, the man - interpreted doctrines or the way organized religion was conducted, then Jefferson is an atheist. What you propose is an insult to common sense; it denies reality. My mother used to say, a man is known by the company he keeps.

I've posted enough about the people that Jefferson associated with (as have other posters) to show you are absolutely full of crap. You want an argument that I said America is a theocracy, which is an absolute LIE that you set out to sell. By culture, by tradition, by birth, and by customs, America was founded as a Christian nation.

Our system of jurisprudence is based on the common law which has its roots in Christianity. We don't necessarily reach Christian based conclusions, but the method whereby we arrive at the answer is based upon Christian principles. Our governing documents have enough biblical corollaries so that anyone can see they were written by people who worshiped a Christian God. This thread destroyed your primary thesis, but you took it personal against me as you want to present me as something I'm not and having done things I most assuredly did not.. amo
ng them, was to lie.

Check. I cited the letter to Benjamin Rush when I listed six facts. You are late.


Forget Jefferson. Are non-believers including humanist secularists who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ but stay married when they get married, don’t get tattoos, send their kids to college, serve others, don’t do drugs, consider Jesus’ moral teachings a good guide to life - Real Christians?

It is not for me or for you to judge who is and who is not a Christian. Religious tests are prohibited in the United States. Now, for some history. According to Wikipedia regarding Thomas Jefferson:

"He was then elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County in September 1776, when finalizing a state constitution was a priority.

Jefferson was elected governor for one-year terms in 1779 and 1780."

Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Now, you've wasted all this bandwidth to make Jefferson a God. You have to admit that Jefferson must have wielded some power and influence in the wording of the 1776 Constitution of Virginia. He's been so all fired important up to this point. His priority is finalizing a state constitution. May I quote from that document?

"SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Constitution of Virginia, 1776

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem. Otherwise Virginians would only have had a duty to practice love and charity towards each other. Instead, as part of our culture the citizens of Virginia were to practice "Christian forbearance toward one another..."

That don't count does it? Practicing a Christian trait identifies the people as Christian, but it did not establish a theocracy. It simply states that we have a duty to practice Christian forbearance - not Muslim Forbearance or Jewish Forbearance - or Hindu Forbearance or some religion neutral Forbearance.

You want to argue some more or keep this up? Next question.

Your lies, deflections and that personal numbering crap amount to nothing. I trust people can find the post numbers of this thread and follow along to see what you really said as you lie and squirm after berating me and falsely accusing me of "Trumpism."

You've avoided EVERY question asked of you. Let us see if you can be honest for once. What person on the right has stated that America was founded as a theocracy? Remember, the way you set the bar, there can be NO inferences or things that theocrats might say. Give me a quote of any of these right wingers you claim to be sounding like me advocating for a theocracy. Give me one name and one link of verification.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23941571

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem

I have no problem

I never said Jefferson hated the man, great moral teacher whom He called Jesus of Nazareth.

Jefferson thought very highly of Jesus’ moral teachings.

Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Christ

Jefferson distinguished Jesus from the establishment church political dung that in his own words was.... “compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man”

Jefferson believed in God and the moral teachings of Jesus but Ferociously rejected the Hocus Pocus of Organized Christendom m no other in his day

I’m sure you can accept a Catholic writerr’s view of our Church Hating Third President of United States.

Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson

The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
by Donald J. D'Elia

• Saving America

• Jefferson did not relent in his crusade against Platonizing Christians even in the final years of his life. Indeed, his founding of the University of Virginia, in 1819, was conceived as a means of promoting his Enlightenment philosophy of reason and science against the forces of reaction.
• These were being led by the old enemies of Jefferson and the rights of mAthanasius", who opposed "freedom of religious opinion and its external divorce from the civil authority."42
  
  
• Their creeds and formulas, their "hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads" were "the bane and ruin of the Christian church, its own fatal invention, which, through so many ages, made of Christendom a slaughter-house, and at this day divides it into casts of inextinguishable hatred to one another."43

• America must be saved from "the fire and faggots of Calvin and his victim Servetus". And it would be saved,
  
  
• Jefferson was certain, by that very materialistic and anti-trinitarian doctrine for which Servetus was martyred, Unitarianism. "The diffusion of instruction, to which there is now so growing an attention," he confided to his friend, Thomas Cooper, his choice for a professorship at the University of Virginia, "will be the remote remedy to this fever of fanaticism; while the more proximate one will be the progress of Unitarianism. That this will, ere long, be the religion of the majority from north to south, I have no doubt."44

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23941571

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem

I have no problem

I never said Jefferson hated the man, great moral teacher whom He called Jesus of Nazareth.

Jefferson thought very highly of Jesus’ moral teachings.

Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Christ

Jefferson distinguished Jesus from the establishment church political dung that in his own words was.... “compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man”

Jefferson believed in God and the moral teachings of Jesus but Ferociously rejected the Hocus Pocus of Organized Christendom m no other in his day

I’m sure you can accept a Catholic writerr’s view of our Church Hating Third President of United States.

Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson

The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
by Donald J. D'Elia

• Saving America

• Jefferson did not relent in his crusade against Platonizing Christians even in the final years of his life. Indeed, his founding of the University of Virginia, in 1819, was conceived as a means of promoting his Enlightenment philosophy of reason and science against the forces of reaction.
• These were being led by the old enemies of Jefferson and the rights of mAthanasius", who opposed "freedom of religious opinion and its external divorce from the civil authority."42
  
  
• Their creeds and formulas, their "hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads" were "the bane and ruin of the Christian church, its own fatal invention, which, through so many ages, made of Christendom a slaughter-house, and at this day divides it into casts of inextinguishable hatred to one another."43

• America must be saved from "the fire and faggots of Calvin and his victim Servetus". And it would be saved,
  
  
• Jefferson was certain, by that very materialistic and anti-trinitarian doctrine for which Servetus was martyred, Unitarianism. "The diffusion of instruction, to which there is now so growing an attention," he confided to his friend, Thomas Cooper, his choice for a professorship at the University of Virginia, "will be the remote remedy to this fever of fanaticism; while the more proximate one will be the progress of Unitarianism. That this will, ere long, be the religion of the majority from north to south, I have no doubt."44

One thing before I reply: You do know faggots was referring to a bundle of sticks, right?

You've made this about Thomas Jefferson as if he alone were responsible for the Republic. You have represented a small window (15 years at best) of Jefferson's life at his worst refusing to consider more than 65 + years of his life and experiences.

You have weighed his religion in light of a small window of the man's life and rely on selected snippets of stuff to bolster your case while berating me and calling me a liar - and even associating me with Donald Trump. You've not provided a damn thing to tie me to your stereotypes and allegations. Now, you're refusing to answer questions when I was courteous enough to answer your questions. You lied about me. It's that plain and simple. Now, you can man up or stand down. That choice will be yours, but you will get a beat down from here on out. You challenged me; I accept.

In my life, I went to Bible College and graduated. I then studied law, but while doing so the Bible College hooked up with the LDS. Personally, I could not accept the proposition that Joseph Smith was of any special biblical significance. I could be wrong. But, that is just me.

I've had critics that, once they learned my name, used my educational background, that I inadvertently made public, to talk trash about me that they dare not say to my face. So, I know firsthand, from hardcore experience that Jefferson went through various periods of doubting God, sometimes not believing due to organized religion, and drawing his own personal conclusions. So, it's obvious you don't have a lot of real life experience. The man did identify as a Christian - just not the kind where people like you get to make the judgment call.

PERSONALLY, I do not celebrate Christmas. It is a pagan holiday that got "christianized" by the Catholics. Prior to that, it was illegal in America to observe that pagan feast. But, because it is now Christmas - the holiday Saturnalia is illegal for the most part (mostly due to the bigotry against Jesus and Nativity scenes.) Still, I stood up for religious Liberty in this thread, didn't I?

I made much ado about the Pledge of Allegiance. I have serious doubts about that and personal reservations, but to outlaw it? Really? Again, I stood up for Liberty. You've made my religious views and Jefferson's religion the basis to wage a personal war against me. The reality is, you didn't even have the common courtesy to read the freaking first post. It ends with a link that tells people all they would want to know about what my tenets of faith are.

You came here, saw the title and like a lot of really silly people, you began posting without reading the thread and you had an agenda from the moment you began posting. You proved that you came here, thinking I fit that cookie cutter mold because I said things that Trump and his people would say. Did it ever dawn on you that Trump got his talking points from people who got their talking points from Christians? I have a personal opinion about a lot of political propaganda prostitutes that hide behind the Christian label, but I don't get to judge the hypocrites from the ignorant. So, I simply take them at their word. You didn't read the thread and you tried to judge me. You made it personal. Now, you can back down or I will keep coming back at you, proving that you're wrong. America was founded as a Christian nation and the temporary takeover by the secularists / humanists / secular humanists/ atheists and people wanting a One World Religion will be short lived.

You keep coming back and I'll keep helping you dig that hole a bit deeper. Christian nation is not any form of theocracy. It was simply who we were as a people and the principles our forefathers used to establish Liberty.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You've made this about Thomas Jefferson as if he alone were responsible for the Republic.

No. It’s been explained otherwise. But carry on.?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

and even associating me with Donald Trump.

I opined that your goal here appears to be similar to the Christian Nationalists made up of groups within the white Christian Evangelical movement which is hand and glove tied to Trump.

 

[Correll]

xt. You claim to give people the whole verse, but I cited the complete SOURCE.

If you intended to convey a complete meaningful source you would not have cited Jefferson at all,

Your intent was to back up calling me a liar by quoting only one short part where Jefferson said he was a real Christian.

So you were making the argument that Jefferson wrote that he was a real Christian which you thought proved that I was a liar.

Then I posted six facts that in that same letter Jefferson said he was a real Christian but added in the same sentence “different from” as Jefferson continued? He was different from every aspect of established Christianity and the Church for the last 1700 years.

DIFFERENT FROM

DIFFERENT FROM

DIFFERENT FROM

DIFFERENT FROM

That was one helluva distinction that you left out.

I sir / was not lying / I do not lie.

I may make mistakes. But this was not that.

So are all people that live a decent life but do not believe one whit in the divinity of Jesus Christ or the resurrection and the forgiveness of sins to be called Christians equal to those who believe in the Divinity of Christ.

I cannot tell if you think Jefferson is or was ever a Christian who takes Jesus Christ to be his Lord and Savior from what you quoted minus a piece of his statement or If he was what he said in the rest of that quote.

Why did my mother tell me I had to believe in the Divinity of Christ according to Lutheran Doctrine in order to be a Christian.

Was my Mother wrong?

I gave the entire citing source and I'm tired of your lying ass claiming otherwise. It is not my fault that you got butt hurt. Now, what I can do is research the entire source if I wanted to prove you wrong, but I don't care to. If my entire argument was to prove someone wrong because ONE man uttered ONE sentence and that's all I had, I'd realize that I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground... and that's all you have. AND IT'S MEANING IS DISPUTABLE AS WELL AS IRRELEVANT.

Your mother could only tell you what constitutes a Christian according to the tenets of the Lutheran faith. You keep screwing with me and I'm going to really embarrass you. Keep it up and we can make it personal. When that happens, your bigotry, ignorance and ego trip will be on trial. Fair warning: STOP.

So, that is what he is on about? That is all he has? He found one Founder that had an odd belief, and he is presuming to judge him NOT a Christian, and that somehow, proves something?


God Lord. That is pathetic.

 

[Correll]

23939695

It is good that you are dropping the angle of attack the being against having an Established Church in any way means you are against having a Christian Nation.

I am not dropping anything. That is not and was not part of the intended argument I have begun to present.

I will restate it this way:

I argue that America was not ‘founded as’ a Christian Nation, but when it was being founded it was indisputably ‘being’ a Christian nation.

I insist this point is true that being in a Christian Nation as described above means Christians are believers in the divinity of a Christ.

But my point as I will develop it further, needs the truth to be told that Jefferson and many of the founding fathers were different thsn the citizenry with regards to their view divinity of Christ.

If you have no interest in hearing me out fine

I will present it so it’s here.

Jefferson was against the established Christian Church and its belief in the divinity of Christ.

I have no reason to believe that Jefferson would be opposed to a majority of citizens freely practicing religion according to the
divinity related traditions of their assembly of churches to publicly and even proudly describing being lived in a Christian Nation in a Christian way.

My point is this: I don’t see a logical or sensible reason that being Christians as a citizenry and believers in a particular religion, they would feel it necessary to claim that they personally were involved in the ‘founding’ of the United States of America. They elected founders to do it. And only the property owning Christians has a real say in that,

The vast majority of Christians were left out of the founding in that sense

What a pile of sophistic nonsense.

 

[Correll]

23941571

Christianity is a part of this nation's culture. IF Jefferson was all so atheist / secular / humanist Christ hating as you proclaim, you definitely have a problem

I have no problem

I never said Jefferson hated the man, great moral teacher whom He called Jesus of Nazareth.

Jefferson thought very highly of Jesus’ moral teachings.

Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Christ

Jefferson distinguished Jesus from the establishment church political dung that in his own words was.... “compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man”

Jefferson believed in God and the moral teachings of Jesus but Ferociously rejected the Hocus Pocus of Organized Christendom m no other in his day

I’m sure you can accept a Catholic writerr’s view of our Church Hating Third President of United States.

Library : The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson

The Relevance of Thomas Jefferson
by Donald J. D'Elia

• Saving America

• Jefferson did not relent in his crusade against Platonizing Christians even in the final years of his life. Indeed, his founding of the University of Virginia, in 1819, was conceived as a means of promoting his Enlightenment philosophy of reason and science against the forces of reaction.
• These were being led by the old enemies of Jefferson and the rights of mAthanasius", who opposed "freedom of religious opinion and its external divorce from the civil authority."42
  
  
• Their creeds and formulas, their "hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads" were "the bane and ruin of the Christian church, its own fatal invention, which, through so many ages, made of Christendom a slaughter-house, and at this day divides it into casts of inextinguishable hatred to one another."43

• America must be saved from "the fire and faggots of Calvin and his victim Servetus". And it would be saved,
  
  
• Jefferson was certain, by that very materialistic and anti-trinitarian doctrine for which Servetus was martyred, Unitarianism. "The diffusion of instruction, to which there is now so growing an attention," he confided to his friend, Thomas Cooper, his choice for a professorship at the University of Virginia, "will be the remote remedy to this fever of fanaticism; while the more proximate one will be the progress of Unitarianism. That this will, ere long, be the religion of the majority from north to south, I have no doubt."44

Dude. He crushed you, and that you cut down his post, is obviously because you could not refute it.


Obvious to everyone, including you.

 

[Correll]

You've made this about Thomas Jefferson as if he alone were responsible for the Republic.

No. It’s been explained otherwise. But carry on.?

All you are doing, obviously, is stonewalling, to create the illusion, to the less observant, that there might be some validity to your position, when it is weak ass sophism that has been completely refuted.


ALL YOU HAVE, is repetition, and the hope that you can bury the real meat of the thread is static, to hide how you have lost the argument.


That all the other libs have fled, demonstrates that this debate has been won. America was founded as a Christian Nation.

 

[Correll]

and even associating me with Donald Trump.

I opined that your goal here appears to be similar to the Christian Nationalists made up of groups within the white Christian Evangelical movement which is hand and glove tied to Trump.

And hear you are or seem to be, believing the nonsense of the Left and their allies the Fringe Nazis movement, to lump just about everyone right of Mitt Romney as "Alt Right" and then take the additional step of conflating them with the Nazis Fringe.



That is


a. A complete lie on your part.


and



b. not relevant to this discussion. Indeed, that you bring it up, calls in to question, or I should say, your motivation in the debate. It seems your position is not based on the facts, but on what you fear the facts could be used to argue.

 

[Gdjjr]

The only thing esoteric arguments do is build a false self esteem.