Alternative Voting System

[CowboyTed]

Listen we see a lot of arguments and frustration here. I just going to point out an alternative voting system which is quite common around the world. US uses the one man one vote system which has an inherit flaw which leads to two parties and a lack of choice for the normal voter. I have used an Irish one here as it is one I know best.

I still hold my view that this type of politics comes from just having only two sides Rep or Dem. If proportional Representation with a Single Vote Transfer (alternative vote) was introduced the hyperbole of energising the base would leave. In countries where it exists there is 'race to the middle', with main political fight between center right and center left.

The fear of being voted out in a caucus by more extreme elements in your party is reduced heavily. Naturally the GOP party would splinter into a Tea Party and the more mainstream center right. The Left would probably do the same with different names.
The Tea Party guys would win seats in certain areas as would the the left party. Add in a few Greens, Texas Party(cause they would have one), workers party, Christian Party.... You also get issue candidates for things like Ban all Muslims, Immigration Reform,.... Some will get seats and some won't...
Whips(leaders) for each party would have more discipline because they have more align principles.

But the main thing will be deals will have to be struck, compromises made to form a working government. Generally a program of government is usually set up with various deals stuck on them. In Europe they publish the program (usually) with aims to achieve in a certain period... So compromises on Gun Laws for Environmental Law are made...

But the main thing is everyone gets more of a say...

There is surprises too... Actually Ireland voted in the first Muslim in Europe in 1992. He was a Doctor in the hospital running on the issue not to reduce services in the hospital. Complete shock he won, to himself included. He got what he wanted too, the main parties wanted the seat back and they knew this was an issue that people wanted. Hey! democracy at work.

Also election season is short, generally 6 - 8 weeks long. A snap election could be 3 weeks, TV & Radio ads are banned with about three 10 min broadcasts from each party. Debates are usually better fun with 5 leaders going at it with various ideas.
But the main thing to do is not alienate anyone, very few get elected on the first count. You are relying on people preference as they go down the list of candidates.
They vote 1 for their favourite, 2 for 2nd... and so on.... Your vote doesn't get lost if your favourite gets knocked out. That's the Single Transfer vote bit.
Then in Ireland we do 3-5 seat constituencies. So there is a quota you must reach to get elected. (It is (Num Votes)/(Number of Seats +1))

The example below is from an Election in my area in 2011. It is a 5 seater so they are electing five people in this area.

There is a few things. We count by hand, why? because we do trust machines. Voters count the votes in front of party members (called tally men). These guys can be clairvoyant in knowing who is going to be elected even after the first vote.
Counting usually takes between one to three days, depending how close and if there is recounts. Margins can be razor sharp in win. You can see in the last count there it came down to 17 votes.

If you notice Sean Kyne in was only 54 votes from disqualification in Count 11 but came out of there to win a seat. Mainly because Fidelma in his party who got discounted and got close to 2,000 of her next preference votes.He was actually running against here all day and was behind on the 9th count before getting ahead of her. Then when ahead and she was discounted he gets her transfers.

Honestly, it is exciting with everyone feels their vote makes a difference. Turnout was 70%.

I am not saying this is the best ever but I do feel a certain amount of the problem besetting Washington could be solved by a more representative and more highly competitive elections.

 

[Zander]

So, why don't you move to Ireland?

 

[Little-Acorn]

"Those who vote, decide nothing.

"Those who count the votes, decide everything."

-Josef Stalin

 

[CowboyTed]

So, why don't you move to Ireland?

I live in Ireland and have business interests in US as well...

I am not telling anyone what to do , I just points out that one man one vote is a cause of a lot of US political problems. You have congress having an approval rating below 20% and yet 96.4 percent of incumbent lawmakers were re-elected in 2014.

That does not seem healthy

 

[CowboyTed]

"Those who vote, decide nothing.

"Those who count the votes, decide everything."

-Josef Stalin

Quite true for Stalin. But fraud in manual counts are very hard to do with Tallymen. They know the areas and can tell you what a box should look like.
I was with one day and two boxes came from my parish. He knew the count in the first box (south of Parish) and could tell me what the second box was like with in 3 votes (1st pref)

 

[Wyatt earp]

"Those who vote, decide nothing.

"Those who count the votes, decide everything."

-Josef Stalin

Quite true for Stalin. But fraud in manual counts are very hard to do with Tallymen. They know the areas and can tell you what a box should look like.
I was with one day and two boxes came from my parish. He knew the count in the first box (south of Parish) and could tell me what the second box was like with in 3 votes (1st pref)

No corruption ?

That wouldn't work in places like chicago.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

So, why don't you move to Ireland?

I live in Ireland and have business interests in US as well...

I am not telling anyone what to do , I just points out that one man one vote is a cause of a lot of US political problems. You have congress having an approval rating below 20% and yet 96.4 percent of incumbent lawmakers were re-elected in 2014.

That does not seem healthy

So what percentage of your votes in Ireland are dictated by the Brits? We know you aren't a real country because you can't even vote for yourselves to be one. You're a colony and colonies can afford to play stupid self gratifying games as long as mommy is there to take care of the big stuff.

 

[CowboyTed]

So, why don't you move to Ireland?

I live in Ireland and have business interests in US as well...

I am not telling anyone what to do , I just points out that one man one vote is a cause of a lot of US political problems. You have congress having an approval rating below 20% and yet 96.4 percent of incumbent lawmakers were re-elected in 2014.

That does not seem healthy

So what percentage of your votes in Ireland are dictated by the Brits? We know you aren't a real country because you can't even vote for yourselves to be one. You're a colony and colonies can afford to play stupid self gratifying games as long as mommy is there to take care of the big stuff.

You know Republic of Ireland is an independent country. We have a Prime Minister and Parliament. I think you might be confusing us with Northern Ireland or Scotland.

 

[CowboyTed]

"Those who vote, decide nothing.

"Those who count the votes, decide everything."

-Josef Stalin

Quite true for Stalin. But fraud in manual counts are very hard to do with Tallymen. They know the areas and can tell you what a box should look like.
I was with one day and two boxes came from my parish. He knew the count in the first box (south of Parish) and could tell me what the second box was like with in 3 votes (1st pref)

No corruption ?

That wouldn't work in places like chicago.

There is one unusual sight which perplexed the regular Irish guy during the US 2000 election.

When the votes are counted the election returning officer (appointed by a court (I think)) actually gives the result on each count and explains what s happens. No TV stations calling elections. Counts don't start until the day after the election at 9:00am.
The Count is separate event. There is no shouting or any rude behaviour at it or the returning officer will just ask them to leave and a very nice policeman shows you to the door(and probably the pub across the road).
The way we see it every vote has to be counted and accuracy is more important than speed. One vote took 14 days. Judge had to be called in. There was a 4 vote margin. But I think that was the longest ever. But there was no question of finishing earlier until it was clear.
The guy lost thought was a fair result.

 

[BULLDOG]

Listen we see a lot of arguments and frustration here. I just going to point out an alternative voting system which is quite common around the world. US uses the one man one vote system which has an inherit flaw which leads to two parties and a lack of choice for the normal voter. I have used an Irish one here as it is one I know best.

I still hold my view that this type of politics comes from just having only two sides Rep or Dem. If proportional Representation with a Single Vote Transfer (alternative vote) was introduced the hyperbole of energising the base would leave. In countries where it exists there is 'race to the middle', with main political fight between center right and center left.

The fear of being voted out in a caucus by more extreme elements in your party is reduced heavily. Naturally the GOP party would splinter into a Tea Party and the more mainstream center right. The Left would probably do the same with different names.
The Tea Party guys would win seats in certain areas as would the the left party. Add in a few Greens, Texas Party(cause they would have one), workers party, Christian Party.... You also get issue candidates for things like Ban all Muslims, Immigration Reform,.... Some will get seats and some won't...
Whips(leaders) for each party would have more discipline because they have more align principles.

But the main thing will be deals will have to be struck, compromises made to form a working government. Generally a program of government is usually set up with various deals stuck on them. In Europe they publish the program (usually) with aims to achieve in a certain period... So compromises on Gun Laws for Environmental Law are made...

But the main thing is everyone gets more of a say...

There is surprises too... Actually Ireland voted in the first Muslim in Europe in 1992. He was a Doctor in the hospital running on the issue not to reduce services in the hospital. Complete shock he won, to himself included. He got what he wanted too, the main parties wanted the seat back and they knew this was an issue that people wanted. Hey! democracy at work.

Also election season is short, generally 6 - 8 weeks long. A snap election could be 3 weeks, TV & Radio ads are banned with about three 10 min broadcasts from each party. Debates are usually better fun with 5 leaders going at it with various ideas.
But the main thing to do is not alienate anyone, very few get elected on the first count. You are relying on people preference as they go down the list of candidates.
They vote 1 for their favourite, 2 for 2nd... and so on.... Your vote doesn't get lost if your favourite gets knocked out. That's the Single Transfer vote bit.
Then in Ireland we do 3-5 seat constituencies. So there is a quota you must reach to get elected. (It is (Num Votes)/(Number of Seats +1))

The example below is from an Election in my area in 2011. It is a 5 seater so they are electing five people in this area.
View attachment 56537

There is a few things. We count by hand, why? because we do trust machines. Voters count the votes in front of party members (called tally men). These guys can be clairvoyant in knowing who is going to be elected even after the first vote.
Counting usually takes between one to three days, depending how close and if there is recounts. Margins can be razor sharp in win. You can see in the last count there it came down to 17 votes.

If you notice Sean Kyne in was only 54 votes from disqualification in Count 11 but came out of there to win a seat. Mainly because Fidelma in his party who got discounted and got close to 2,000 of her next preference votes.He was actually running against here all day and was behind on the 9th count before getting ahead of her. Then when ahead and she was discounted he gets her transfers.

Honestly, it is exciting with everyone feels their vote makes a difference. Turnout was 70%.

I am not saying this is the best ever but I do feel a certain amount of the problem besetting Washington could be solved by a more representative and more highly competitive elections.

Compromises have to be made to form a working government. That's why it wouldn't work here. The right doesn't want a working government.

 

[Two Thumbs]

uhm

we have the electoral college

1 man 1 vote is done locally

 

[Dr Grump]

We have mmp. Great political voting system

 

[Two Thumbs]

I would like to see a change in voting.

I think if you could vote against someone, more people would go.

example; Trump vs Hillary vs 3rd party

Trump is a gasbag that's more into himself than anything else and I won't vote for him.
Hillary is an evil twunt with no place among the living, so I wouldn't vote for her.
3rd party is some milktoast libertarian

so now I have little reason to take my time and vote, but if I could vote against Hillary, I would take the time to do so. This gives a 3rd party a better shot as who is going to be interested in voting against them.

 

[Asclepias]

So, why don't you move to Ireland?

I live in Ireland and have business interests in US as well...

I am not telling anyone what to do , I just points out that one man one vote is a cause of a lot of US political problems. You have congress having an approval rating below 20% and yet 96.4 percent of incumbent lawmakers were re-elected in 2014.

That does not seem healthy

You have to excuse our conservatives. They hate anything new or that would lessen their dependence on the republicans to tell them if only (fill in the blank with the usual republican hated groups) were not in america they would all be wealthy.

 

[cnm]

We have mmp. Great political voting system

I agree. Before that I think I might have voted once in a swing seat. What a waste of time most elections were.

 

[Dr Grump]

We have mmp. Great political voting system

I agree. Before that I think I might have voted once in a swing seat. What a waste of time most elections were.

They were. I once voted for a National candidate for my local MP, but voted Labour for my party (liked the work my local MP did, but was more aligned with Helen Clark's philosophy at the time)

 

[CowboyTed]

We have mmp. Great political voting system

I agree. Before that I think I might have voted once in a swing seat. What a waste of time most elections were.

MMP is interesting alright.

 

[CowboyTed]

We have mmp. Great political voting system

I agree. Before that I think I might have voted once in a swing seat. What a waste of time most elections were.

MMP is interesting alright.

Thought about it... Is good, very good actually.

Doesn't do a single race like President but a simple Alternative Vote or STV could be used then.

My one issue is that it can still encourage gerrymandering a little as only one can elected from one area, this is the advantage of multi seaters, nearly impossible to gerrymander when used with STV.
Saying that the massive advantage of MMP is the list system which could really promote talented but relatively unknown people and drive new blood into politics.

 

[CowboyTed]

Listen we see a lot of arguments and frustration here. I just going to point out an alternative voting system which is quite common around the world. US uses the one man one vote system which has an inherit flaw which leads to two parties and a lack of choice for the normal voter. I have used an Irish one here as it is one I know best.

I still hold my view that this type of politics comes from just having only two sides Rep or Dem. If proportional Representation with a Single Vote Transfer (alternative vote) was introduced the hyperbole of energising the base would leave. In countries where it exists there is 'race to the middle', with main political fight between center right and center left.

The fear of being voted out in a caucus by more extreme elements in your party is reduced heavily. Naturally the GOP party would splinter into a Tea Party and the more mainstream center right. The Left would probably do the same with different names.
The Tea Party guys would win seats in certain areas as would the the left party. Add in a few Greens, Texas Party(cause they would have one), workers party, Christian Party.... You also get issue candidates for things like Ban all Muslims, Immigration Reform,.... Some will get seats and some won't...
Whips(leaders) for each party would have more discipline because they have more align principles.

But the main thing will be deals will have to be struck, compromises made to form a working government. Generally a program of government is usually set up with various deals stuck on them. In Europe they publish the program (usually) with aims to achieve in a certain period... So compromises on Gun Laws for Environmental Law are made...

But the main thing is everyone gets more of a say...

There is surprises too... Actually Ireland voted in the first Muslim in Europe in 1992. He was a Doctor in the hospital running on the issue not to reduce services in the hospital. Complete shock he won, to himself included. He got what he wanted too, the main parties wanted the seat back and they knew this was an issue that people wanted. Hey! democracy at work.

Also election season is short, generally 6 - 8 weeks long. A snap election could be 3 weeks, TV & Radio ads are banned with about three 10 min broadcasts from each party. Debates are usually better fun with 5 leaders going at it with various ideas.
But the main thing to do is not alienate anyone, very few get elected on the first count. You are relying on people preference as they go down the list of candidates.
They vote 1 for their favourite, 2 for 2nd... and so on.... Your vote doesn't get lost if your favourite gets knocked out. That's the Single Transfer vote bit.
Then in Ireland we do 3-5 seat constituencies. So there is a quota you must reach to get elected. (It is (Num Votes)/(Number of Seats +1))

The example below is from an Election in my area in 2011. It is a 5 seater so they are electing five people in this area.
View attachment 56537

There is a few things. We count by hand, why? because we do trust machines. Voters count the votes in front of party members (called tally men). These guys can be clairvoyant in knowing who is going to be elected even after the first vote.
Counting usually takes between one to three days, depending how close and if there is recounts. Margins can be razor sharp in win. You can see in the last count there it came down to 17 votes.

If you notice Sean Kyne in was only 54 votes from disqualification in Count 11 but came out of there to win a seat. Mainly because Fidelma in his party who got discounted and got close to 2,000 of her next preference votes.He was actually running against here all day and was behind on the 9th count before getting ahead of her. Then when ahead and she was discounted he gets her transfers.

Honestly, it is exciting with everyone feels their vote makes a difference. Turnout was 70%.

I am not saying this is the best ever but I do feel a certain amount of the problem besetting Washington could be solved by a more representative and more highly competitive elections.

Compromises have to be made to form a working government. That's why it wouldn't work here. The right doesn't want a working government.

And this the beauty, the far right has power over Moderate GOP in caucusing them. Generally sitting parties run more candidates than they think they get, policy of running you run 3 to get 2. So it is rare for the party not to nominate a sitting member.

But when the guy is asked to govern he doesn't have to worry about the extreme element of the party. And when he goes to election he wants to win Moderate Democrats as well, there is votes for being the least disliked GOP by the Democrats and visa versa. Middle of the road is good, it is called being on the pulse. So being reasonable and considered an honest broker is preferred...

 

[CowboyTed]

I would like to see a change in voting.

I think if you could vote against someone, more people would go.

example; Trump vs Hillary vs 3rd party

Trump is a gasbag that's more into himself than anything else and I won't vote for him.
Hillary is an evil twunt with no place among the living, so I wouldn't vote for her.
3rd party is some milktoast libertarian

so now I have little reason to take my time and vote, but if I could vote against Hillary, I would take the time to do so. This gives a 3rd party a better shot as who is going to be interested in voting against them.

That is the system that was offered...
You would vote with only three candidates:
1. 3rd Party candidate
2. Donald Trump
3. Hillary Clinton(or left out)

Hillary couldn't get your vote in a three horse race. But you are not hurting your chances of defeating Hillary by voting for the 3rd party guy. If the third party guy goes first then your vote would transfer to your next preference Trump.

You see you get to vote for who you want and still stop Hillary.