Al Qaeda link proof?

[jimnyc]

I was doing a bit of research related to the "70% of Americans think Saddam was involved directly with 9/11" and came across this article. Although it's just a "re-print" of the previous articles, I was more interested in the part about the Al Qaeda link:

On Wednesday, Mr Bush said Mr Cheney was right about suspicions of a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda, citing the case of Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a leader of an Islamic group in northern Iraq called Ansar al-Islam believed to have links to al-Qaeda.

The US believes Mr Zarqawi received medical treatment in Baghdad and helped to orchestrate the assassination of a US diplomat in Jordan.

And Mr Bush denied there had been any attempt by his administration to try to confuse people about links between Saddam Hussein and 11 September.

"What the vice-president said was is that he [Saddam] has been involved with al-Qaeda.

"And Zarqawi, an al-Qaeda operative, was in Baghdad. He's the guy that ordered the killing of a US diplomat... There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3118262.stm

 

[janeeng]

I believed this right from the beginning.

 

[SLClemens]

Ansar al-Islam opperated in Kurdish-controlled regions of norther Iraq that were outside Saddam's control and received US protection, especially by way of air support. They could not opperate unless they did under greatest secrecy within Saddam-controled Iraq because Saddam saw them as a threat. I wonder what their current affiliation to US-supported Kurdish groups is?

 

[jimnyc]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0402/p01s03-wome.html
http://www.indolink.com/Analysis/a021003-173249.php
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96825,00.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5571
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/12/23/wirq23.xml
http://www.misterdasher.com/quidnunc/archives/000212.html
http://www.mafhoum.com/press4/125P53.htm
http://www.darrenkaplan.net/archives/000082.html
http://www.meta-religion.com/Hate_Groups/Islamic_extremism/ansar_al-islam/ansar_al-islam.htm
http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2003/283/zarqawi.html

 

[SLClemens]

These along with more updated information on Ansar al-Islam only suggest that US policy towards Iraq, and in particular the invasion, has only turned it into a terrorist state. (Cf: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10714 ). And now is it any surprise if "Saddam loyalists", people just pissed off at the US occupation, and Ansar al-Islam find that they have a lot in common, even if tehy don't by any means share the same religious views? What a predictable mess.

 

[jimnyc]

From the article you linked to:

"Allawi said recent intelligence indicated that former Mukhabarat agents and Al Qaeda or its affiliates were forming a "field command" that would be responsible for operations against Americans and their supporters."

And I just read this, dated 4/2003:

"Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998."

"The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml

And also here:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/27/1051381848894.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,944586,00.html

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
From the article you linked to:

"Allawi said recent intelligence indicated that former Mukhabarat agents and Al Qaeda or its affiliates were forming a "field command" that would be responsible for operations against Americans and their supporters."

And I just read this, dated 4/2003:

"Papers found yesterday in the bombed headquarters of the Mukhabarat, Iraq's intelligence service, reveal that an al-Qa'eda envoy was invited clandestinely to Baghdad in March 1998."

"The documents show that the purpose of the meeting was to establish a relationship between Baghdad and al-Qa'eda based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia. The meeting apparently went so well that it was extended by a week and ended with arrangements being discussed for bin Laden to visit Baghdad."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml

And also here:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/27/1051381848894.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,944586,00.html

Yes, surprise surprise - every government with any involvement in the Mid-East was interested in what al-Queda was doing and how they could use them to their advantage - including the USA. Why, might I ask, does the CIA have such a long history of involvement with and funding of Osama and his cronies? Of course, in the case of the documents discovered by the Telegraph and Christian Science Monitor we have to hope they're not of the same mill that produced the forgeries against British MP George Galloway. But even if Saddam had made contacts with al-Queda, as he may well have, this is no link to 9-11, and much less contact than many other states that were not invaded.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
But even if Saddam had made contacts with al-Queda, as he may well have, this is no link to 9-11, and much less contact than many other states that were not invaded.

I wasn't making a connection to 9/11, and I thought I made myself clear previously that I don't think that particular connection existed. This is simply another portion of the Iraq/Al Qaeda connection which so many vehemently argue didn't exist.

 

[dijetlo]

>>On Wednesday, Mr Bush said Mr Cheney was right about suspicions of a link between Iraq and al-Qaeda, citing the case of Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a leader of an Islamic group in northern Iraq called Ansar al-Islam believed to have links to al-Qaeda.The US believes Mr Zarqawi received medical treatment in Baghdad<<

The connection relates to events occurring around 9-11. A little background might help put it in context. Hussein looses control of the northern half of his country to a western backed ethnic faction shortly after the end of the Gulf War. Enter Ansar Al-Islam. Seizing villages along the Iranian border, they institute Islamic law and begin a spirited scrap with the local Kurdish forces. This was done with Husseins’ support and cooperation; there can be little doubt. Money was funneled through Baghdad by among others Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. He runs a merry band of lunatics named Jund al-Shams. The frightening thing about these guys is their interest in bio/chem. weapons. They were present in some numbers amongst Ansar Al-Islam in late 2001 while Zaqawi was having his leg lopped off in Baghdad. On a side note;

:crutch::clap1:

Once the Iraqis set up a training camp in Ansar Al-Islam, did Zarqawi send him students from the ranks of Jund-al-Shams? He’d be an idiot to skip the free training. Was he involved in the funding for it? Without a doubt, Ansar Al-Islam shares financial channels with Jund-al-Shams as well as most of the rest of the Islamic terrorist groups. The connection that gave this thing legs was the presence of Zarqawi himself in Baghdad and several of his lieutenants in the camp. Zarqawi is the connection between Ansar Al-Islam and Al Qaeda, he maintains similar relationships with both groups. He leads his own group, Jund-al-Shams. He is more of an OBL allie than a leautenant. Did Hussein know what was going on and who this guy was? Of course, but the axiom of middle eastern politics is “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Hussein was training his allies to fight the Kurds, the presence of one of their bosses in a Baghdad hospital was not a matter for concern to him. While prewar claims of a clandestine bio chem. school at the camp turned out to be vapor, this connection remains. By early ’02 the stunned US is beginning to look more closely at the connections between organizations. Not surprisingly, the whole Jund-al-Shams circus leaves Baghdad for parts unknown. Iraqi intelligence pulls the plug on Ansar Al-Islam and the nifty little offensive they were running on the Kurds grinds to a halt.
The point to this long story is that a connection to Zarqawi is not the same as support for Al-Qaeda. Zarqawi was a player in Ansar Al-Islam and in that context he was allowed to remain in Baghdad (though the US has a warrant for him.) while his men were fighting the seperatists in northern Iraq before any solid connection between him and 9/11 surfaced in the west. Using this as the background for war is the definition of politicizing intelligence data.

 

[Bry]

Fascinating post, Dijet. May I ask where you've been reading up on this?

 

[dijetlo]

Originally posted by Bry
Fascinating post, Dijet. May I ask where you've been reading up on this?

Thanks,
Janes and the Washington Institute a conservative think tank

That's a good start, though read the think tanks stuff with a critical eye, they are grinding a policy axe as well. There's a lot more information out there, specificaly on how the terrorist cells are organized, though I haven't held onto the links. These guys are not like an army or a corporation, they are more like the mafia, with the power collecting around the "bankers" who are deemed trustworthy to handle the donations from across the ME. These guys are surrounded by a cadre of veteran mujahadeen who made their bones 20 years ago in Afghanistan.
The telling question for purposes of this argument is does Zarkawi constitute a link to Al-Qaeda. Having read some on this topic I'd say no. He constitutes a link to Jund-al-Shams and Ansar-Al-Islam. He appears to act independantly of Al-Queda with recent attacks against a US diplomat in Jordan and a foiled chem terror plot in europe to his little groups credit.

Given my choice of catching the one-eyed mullah, the seven foot tall arab, the ex-dictator of Iraq, or Zarkawi, the one legged wonder, give me ol' stumpy. If we don't do something about this boy I got a feeling he'll get up to no good.