Accusing Israel of Genocide is an Antisemitic Trope

[Billo_Really]

Show me.

Arabs did elect Hamas. Are you claiming otherwise? And a free fire zone? Then you know nothing of the combat in Gaza and Lebanon.

Nope. Wrong. No one is trying to do this.

You haven't proven anything. Try again.

Fuck you dude! Are you telling me no one says anything bad about the Palestinians?

FUCK YOU!

And you just murdered 45,000 people! THAT'S ETHNIC CLEANSING ASSHOLE!

 

[rosends]

Fuck you dude! Are you telling me no one says anything bad about the Palestinians?

FUCK YOU!

And you just murdered 45,000 people! THAT'S ETHNIC CLEANSING ASSHOLE!

Sorry, I couldn't hear you. Try shouting louder.

 

[Billo_Really]

Sorry, I couldn't hear you. Try shouting louder.

You remind me of the Bob Dylan song where he say's...

..."how many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn't see?"

 

[rosends]

You remind me of the Bob Dylan song where he say's...

..."how many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn't see?"

I hope you are better at understanding lyrics than you are geopolitics and history.

 

[Ringo]

Christian soldiers who refused to stand there and watch children starving to death who finally gave some relief to the German people. The Jews would have stood there and watched, enjoying it.

The Jewish survivors of the death camps didn't just stand and watch, they even participated in violence against the Germans. I love stories like that, not necessarily involving jews.
For example, how an U.S. general, when he saw two laughing german girls, coming out of a concentration camp where they, as part of the German civilian population, were forced to go and see, what was going on there, so that they wouldn't say that they “knew nothing”. The general then ordered them to be placed in a ditch with the bodies of dead prisoners, where they were kept all night.
These are the kind of Allied stories I love. The fact that the germans were allowed to live at all, after what they had done, is a credit to the humanistic allies, especially the Soviet Union.

 

[Grau]

You are clearly using "Zionist" as a collective noun to describe something. It is frequently used as a slur, or to separate "good" Jew from "evil" Jew. If you don't intend it that way, would you please describe the collective you intend to apply this noun to?

I'm obviously having trouble keeping up with your numerous comments to me.

I am not ignoring you. I've just been spending a lot of time at the V.A. Hospital with other "Scratch n' Dent" old Veterans and the new cancer med.s slow me down too.


I try to be specific as to who or what I am criticizing to avoid making bigoted or unclear generalizations.

For example, when I use the term "Zionist", I do not mean people who simply believe that Israel has a right to exist in peace.
I have a little difficulty accepting the concept that any country assigns special rights and privileges for any one religious, ethnic or racial group so that is why I disapprove of things like Israel's Nationality Law, apartheid, Race Laws etc

A "Zionist", in my mind, is a militant and strident Jewish or Christian ultra-nationalist who wishes to expand Israel beyond legal and mutually agreed upon borders (i.e. "Greater Israel") while maintaining apartheid (Nationality Law).

I fully understand why some Jews feel persecuted to the extent that they feel that a country should be exclusively for Jewish refugees only.
It seems impossible to have a truly democratic government that discriminates according to religion, race, ethnic background.

I don't think you realize that the reason I am so strongly opposed to Netanyahu and the extreme right wing element is precisely because I appreciate all that Israel has contributed and has to offer and I genuinely feel that Netanyahu, Gallant, Dickter, Ben Gvir etc are Israel's greatest threat.

I feel that our differences are a result of my not stressing the good that Israel has done and does but the topics we discuss have little to do with art, archeology, literature, medical advances etc.
For example, after numerous vocations, professions, and no little amount of grunt work, I took up blacksmithing over 30 years ago and went on to design and make wrought iron gates, wine racks with wrought iron grape vines, Wrought iron elephants and other African animals, reproductions of Elizabethan museum artifacts and about everything from cannons to napkin rings.

Several years ago I was lucky enough to meet and watch Israeli blacksmith Uri Hofi (1) at an International blacksmith convention (A.B.A.N.A.). Blacksmiths from around the world were making amazing gates, gargoyle heads, sculpture etc etc. Uri Hofi and his team took a 1 foot square cube of solid steel, heated it and used a giant mechanical hammer to turn the cube into a perfect sphere about 1 foot in diameter.

I talked to Uri about visiting and working at his blacksmith shop but I was in the middle of a complex project of my own at the time. I was excited about going to Israel, working with Hofi on gargoyle heads since I was unable to visit Israel in 1973 because the " '73 War broke out when I was in Southern Lebanon.

If nothing else, I hope I have at least clarified that I don't hate Israel, the Jews or wish either ill fate; you included.

I wish you a belated Happy New Year. (aka Jewish New Year)

"Hofi Blacksmith School"​

Home | My Site

www.hofi-blacksmith-school.com

 

[Ringo]

The Holocaust is not an indulgence for the right to be a Nazi. The Holocaust is a tragedy where internationalists were the saviors.
Just a reminder, because a lot of people have lost their memory.

 

[rosends]

A "Zionist", in my mind, is a militant and strident Jewish or Christian ultra-nationalist who wishes to expand Israel beyond legal and mutually agreed upon borders (i.e. "Greater Israel") while maintaining apartheid (Nationality Law).

A "American" in my mind is a a militant and strident Christian ultra nationalist who wishes to impose a love of Cheez Whiz on Lower Mongolia and who believes that only citizens have the right to vote.

So when I rail against Americans I try to be careful. It is impossible to have true peace and democracy because of Americans.

Making up definitions or using a very precise and select (and personal) definition while ignoring other definitions does little to advance an argument.

 

[Grau]

A "American" in my mind is a a militant and strident Christian ultra nationalist who wishes to impose a love of Cheez Whiz on Lower Mongolia and who believes that only citizens have the right to vote.

So when I rail against Americans I try to be careful. It is impossible to have true peace and democracy because of Americans.

Making up definitions or using a very precise and select (and personal) definition while ignoring other definitions does little to advance an argument.

Well, Shusha asked me to define what I mean when I write "Zionist" and in my own imperfect way I tried to accommodate her.

Of course everyone is going to have a different definition.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

A "American" in my mind is a a militant and strident Christian ultra nationalist who wishes to impose a love of Cheez Whiz on Lower Mongolia and who believes that only citizens have the right to vote.

So when I rail against Americans I try to be careful. It is impossible to have true peace and democracy because of Americans.

This is laughable as are so many of your posts.

The word "American" is not analogous to "Zionist" but to "Israeli", care to try again?

Making up definitions or using a very precise and select (and personal) definition while ignoring other definitions does little to advance an argument.

Decades before Israel declared independence, the terms Zionism and Zionist were in routine use. Such terms don't always have a "definition" as we might find in the sciences for example. The word "Zionism" is just a label for the kinds of political ideas, aspirations, policies and practices that have been part of Jewish politics in the region since before WW1.

Opposition to "Zionism" then is akin to opposing "Socialism" another loosely defined term that most educated people have no trouble with.

You want to separate Zionism from everything but the most rudimentary and non controversial ideas in order to pretend that the evil ideas are somehow nothing to do with an ideology, it is just another attempt to censor free speech, to control language as part of the propaganda campaign we must all face when confronting the evil regime in Israel.

There are British archival records, I've shown these to you before, that show what Zionists wanted and sought with the British as far back as WW1. Those documents very clearly show that facilitating the ethnic cleansing of "Palestinian peasantry" was a goal along with facilitating the inward migration of large numbers of Jews.

One document reveals that Egypt and Jordan were seen as ideal places to send these "peasants" to, this is typical of what colonial powers do and the British were masters at colonialism and the Zionists embraced that.

It is simple deduction therefore to understand that Zionism promoted ethnic cleansing of non-Jews, these plans predate the Holocaust and predate the formation of the Nazi party and so you cannot in any way imply that the ethnic cleansing - colonialism - is somehow a reaction to mass extermination threats, these ideas are inherent within Zionism.

If I tried to insist that Nazism was actually a benevolent ideology aimed at enhancing the well being of the German people and uniting them following the huge impacts of WW1, then would you accept that?

Would any Jew accept a definition of Nazism that excluded mention of the goal of seeking the destruction of the Jewish race? would any sane person accept such a definition?

Asking a Jew to define Nazism is entirely rational, as the victims know better than anyone else what the ideology really does. Likewise asking a Palestinian to define Zionism is no different, victims of ideologies are often the best placed to tell us what it really means.

 

[rosends]

This is laughable as are so many of your posts.

The word "American" is not analogous to "Zionist" but to "Israeli", care to try again?

wow...another swing and a miss for you. A label for a group is a label for a group. But you seem to have trouble keeping up so I can see why you would not understand.

 

[rosends]

Well, Shusha asked me to define what I mean when I write "Zionist" and in my own imperfect way I tried to accommodate her.

Of course everyone is going to have a different definition.

So if your definition of "Zionist" is so limited and not in line with the way others use it, what's the value of coopting the language? Why not use a more accurate and specific word to differentiate between your understanding of the word and the mass understanding of the word?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So if your definition of "Zionist" is so limited and not in line with the way others use it, what's the value of coopting the language? Why not use a more accurate and specific word to differentiate between your understanding of the word and the mass understanding of the word?

You want people to step "in line with the way" Zionists use it ! You want to lie, want to pretend that Zionism is non-threatening to Arabs and Palestinians and pretend that any difficulties that befall them are absolutely nothing to do with Zionism - a lie.

Tell me who is "authorized" to give this deceptive "official" definition? who constitutes the decision makers as to what Zionism means and does not mean?

Relying on Zionists to define for us what "Zionism" means is like relying on Nazis to define what "Nazism" means, the defendants at Nurnberg even tried that in their own defense, it didn't end well for them.

Zionism includes the entitled demand that Zionist be given control over what people can and cannot say, it is insidious and the many hysterical posts about this here from some Jews, proves how seriously they take this ability to control the narrative.

 

[Grau]

So if your definition of "Zionist" is so limited and not in line with the way others use it, what's the value of coopting the language? Why not use a more accurate and specific word to differentiate between your understanding of the word and the mass understanding of the word?

I have spent plenty of time in the Middle East and studied the region's history for over sixty years.

Your opinion of what the "mass understanding of the word" may be different than mine but it's still just your opinion.

How would you have described Zionist for Shusha and what do you think the "mass understanding" of the word Zionist is?

Thanks,

 

[Shusha]

For example, when I use the term "Zionist", I do not mean people who simply believe that Israel has a right to exist in peace.

Got it. Just understand that many do use the term in that sense. Even if there is no intent to confuse from where you are sitting, it still results in confusion.

A "Zionist", in my mind, is a militant and strident Jewish or Christian ultra-nationalist who wishes to expand Israel beyond legal and mutually agreed upon borders (i.e. "Greater Israel") while maintaining apartheid (Nationality Law).

I fully understand why some Jews feel persecuted to the extent that they feel that a country should be exclusively for Jewish refugees only.

But here's the thing. Who are you talking to? I can't think of very many, if any, active participants of this board who are or believe any of those things. I certainly don't. I don't even know that someone like Smotrich would fit into that category. A Zionist, then, feels like just a figment of your imagination.

I feel that our differences are a result of my not stressing the good that Israel has done

Nope. It is the extremely negative ways in which you refer to Israel/Jews/Zionists.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

I have spent plenty of time in the Middle East and studied the region's history for over sixty years.

Your opinion of what the "mass understanding of the word" may be different than mine but it's still just your opinion.

How would you have described Zionist for Shusha and what do you think the "mass understanding" of the word Zionist is?

Thanks,

For people like you, Zionist is a convenient word for Jew.

You are not the only one who has lived in the Middle East.

My children lived in Israel, and l used to visit them.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

For people like you, Zionist is a convenient word for Jew.

You are not the only one who has lived in the Middle East.

My children lived in Israel, and l used to visit them.

In October 1944, the US Office of Strategic Services described the Irgun Tsvai Leumi—National Military Organization—as “an underground, quasi-military organization with headquarters in Palestine . . . fanatical Zionists who wish to convert Palestine and Transjordan into an independent Jewish state [and] advocate the use of force both against the Arabs and the British to achieve this maximal political goal.”

Stop being stupid, act like a grown up.

 

[AMart]

Any of you posters get caught in this video?

 

[gipper]

For people like you, Zionist is a convenient word for Jew.

You are not the only one who has lived in the Middle East.

My children lived in Israel, and l used to visit them.

Many Jews aren’t Zionists. Many non-Jews are Zionists. I would guess the vast majority of posters here are not Jews, but they are Zionists.

If you support the genocide, you’re a Zionist.

Hypothetically speaking, if Israel nukes Iran or bombs them extensively murdering thousands, do you still support them?

 

[AMart]