About TheReligionofPeace.com

[Kalam]

So, to speak out against Islamic principles brings an appropriate sentence of death in your view? Is that what you are saying?

Repudiation of the religion in a manner that challenges the basic legitimacy of the state is treason, yes.

 

[Ropey]

Why don't you simply ask me what I think about that highlighted statement.

\\Ropey? Do you think that any and all violence involving Muslims must be motivated by Islam?//

Can't you do that? Seriously. If you want to know what I think, why tell me?

But yes, I'd much rather hear you speak for yourself.

I don't think that there is a singular movement in Islam that deals with events worldwide. I think that present day interpretation of Islam by the majority of Muslim countries worldwide is the reasoning for the responses of other countries who fear Muslim encroachment and which the past has shown the ebb and flow of the movement. For they know.

If Muslims do not get what they want, then comes the jihad.

That's what I think Kalam. Finally you asked me.

I don't think that's an unreasonable portrayal of your stated views in light of your ascription of 20-odd 'border wars' to the Islamic religion.

Portrayal? Kalam, it's always unreasonable if you are in error of interpreting my views, which is why one paraphrases another in order to understand the other. That's real discussion. A meeting of minds. Understanding. But, you know my mind better than I?

Even though you still prefaced your view as a logical interpretation of my view.

Thanks for that chuckle Kalam. You will find that I have a good command of humor when others actually ask me what I think.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

In the Koran, the only permissible war is one of self-defense. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190).



Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40).

What does that mean preserve decent values

9:111. Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success .

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allah has purchased are) those who repent to Allah (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allah's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'ruf

(i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all what Islam has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islam has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allah (do all that Allah has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allah has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers.

What translation does this come from?

Link please.


You're reading this literally, I take it.

The link in in the post.
What does that mean preserve decent values

 

[Sky Dancer]

What does that mean preserve decent values

9:111. Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success .

9:112. (The believers whose lives Allah has purchased are) those who repent to Allah (from polytheism and hypocrisy, etc.), who worship Him, who praise Him, who fast (or go out in Allah's Cause), who bow down (in prayer), who prostrate themselves (in prayer), who enjoin (people) for Al-Ma'ruf

(i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all what Islam has ordained) and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds and all that Islam has forbidden), and who observe the limits set by Allah (do all that Allah has ordained and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which Allah has forbidden). And give glad tidings to the believers.

What translation does this come from?

Link please.


You're reading this literally, I take it.

The link in in the post.
What does that mean preserve decent values

Obviously, what you and I think it means are completely different because you are a cynic and I am not. Decent values are what is virtuous.

"According to Islam there are five basic values for humanity, which are advised to be protected every time. Depending on circumstances to build up harmony and universal peace, advises to preserve the five basic values at the lowest level or the barest minimum for an acceptable level of living. These basic values therefore includes the ability to perform moral responsibilities; protection of life, securing food, clothing and shelter, education, the right to earn a living, to set up a family, etc. It is to be understood that at this level, one has enough to live but not necessarily to be in some comfort. Islam preaches to that a human being cannot live without these basic values. Individuals and states are advised to protect or at least to respect these basic values."
MORE AT LINK ON ISLAMIC NORMS AND VALUES:
http://www.uga.edu/islam/norms_values.html

 

[Ropey]

If they don't feel the need to turn their apostasy into a public affair, their recompense is in the hereafter. If they begin denouncing and acting against their former religion, I opine that execution for treason is appropriate. Of course, this assumes the existence of a legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

Is there any such state at this moment?

Not one with control over the territory it claims, no. Somalia's ICU almost had it right, but its structure wasn't unitary enough and corrupting influences such as al-Qa'idah reduced its youth movement to the sorry group of delinquents we see running around today.

So, call me when either one of the 57 Muslim countries is practicing the values you espouse,or when Muslims create another Muslim country and show this legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

I will then look deeper. Until then, it's pretty much up in the air where Sky Dancer is as well.

Nice air up there. Rather thin though. One loses some of their lucidity when that high up.

 

[Kalam]

Is there any such state at this moment?

Not one with control over the territory it claims, no. Somalia's ICU almost had it right, but its structure wasn't unitary enough and corrupting influences such as al-Qa'idah reduced its youth movement to the sorry group of delinquents we see running around today.

So, call me when either one of the 57 Muslim countries is practicing the values you espouse,or when Muslims create another Muslim country and show this legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

Okay.

 

[Ropey]

57 Muslim countries all in some form of contravention of Islamic teachings and principles? Separation of Islam and state would deal with that in one fell swoop.



I believe that they are all in contravention of the rights of humanity.

But then, that's what this always has been about. The right to choose.

It's where the twain do not meet.

 

[logical4u]

Actually, you ignore what Islam teaches. You ignore everything peaceful and beautiful in it.

You're a cynic.

No Those part of Islam are fine,Islamic art is wonderful , but they dont concern me to the degree the killing me does.
See how priorities work?

I've posted examples directly from the Q'uran which are peaceful. You ignore them.

You're a cynic.

And other people have posted examples from the quran that are violent. Who's the cynic?

 

[logical4u]

That depends on the the nature of the "exercise of conscience."

Conversion from Islam to Buddhism. Conversion from Islam to Christian. Conversion from Islam to Atheist.

If they don't feel the need to turn their apostasy into a public affair, their recompense is in the hereafter. If they begin denouncing and acting against their former religion, I opine that execution for treason is appropriate. Of course, this assumes the existence of a legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

So are all those protesters demonstrating against the governments in the ME committing treason because they are going against their leader?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Every Muslim should expend all his effort and energy for the society he belongs to.

The present economic world order generates profit as well as consumer in a cyclic manner. It has produced a society, which believes and practices a wasteful or extravagant life-style and considers it their right to "use" because they "have" it. This is in total contrast to Qur’anic model of modesty, simplicity and frugality.

There is a universal rule of law: No one can be punished without evidence. Another important rule: Freedom from guilt is principal, i.e. everybody is innocent unless the opposite is proved. The Prophet is reported to have said, "A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally."

Islam advices us like that: ‘Look at the defect in your own soul that you do not see or do not wish to see. Deduct a share for that. As for the small share which then remains, if you respond with forgiveness, pardon, and magnanimity, in such a way as to conquer your enemy swiftly and safely, then you will have escaped all sin and harm.’ Thus, self-awareness should lead to repentance, repentance to forgiveness, forgiveness to reconciliation and the seeds for a lasting peace are laid.
NORMS AND VALUES IN ISLAM

I see no flaw in these values.

 

[Ropey]

Conversion from Islam to Buddhism. Conversion from Islam to Christian. Conversion from Islam to Atheist.

If they don't feel the need to turn their apostasy into a public affair, their recompense is in the hereafter. If they begin denouncing and acting against their former religion, I opine that execution for treason is appropriate. Of course, this assumes the existence of a legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

So are all those protesters demonstrating against the governments in the ME committing treason because they are going against their leader?

Doesn't matter. There is no legitimate Islamic states with a functioning judicial system.



Philosophers negate the works and move to the words.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

What translation does this come from?

Link please.


You're reading this literally, I take it.

The link in in the post.
What does that mean preserve decent values

Obviously, what you and I think it means are completely different because you are a cynic and I am not. Decent values are what is virtuous.

"According to Islam there are five basic values for humanity, which are advised to be protected every time. Depending on circumstances to build up harmony and universal peace, advises to preserve the five basic values at the lowest level or the barest minimum for an acceptable level of living. These basic values therefore includes the ability to perform moral responsibilities; protection of life, securing food, clothing and shelter, education, the right to earn a living, to set up a family, etc. It is to be understood that at this level, one has enough to live but not necessarily to be in some comfort. Islam preaches to that a human being cannot live without these basic values. Individuals and states are advised to protect or at least to respect these basic values."
MORE AT LINK ON ISLAMIC NORMS AND VALUES:
NORMS AND VALUES IN ISLAM

So you just accept a bunch of unattributed gibberish whose context or veracity you dont know or care to know. just the first link on Google under Islam decent values and that is it?

So let look at it through the eyes of a cynic from your link

A) Life (Physical Self): This includes basic items such as food, clothing, shelter, transport, health etc. In other words, physical self means all those that could provide a healthy body to lead a purposeful life. Islam, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is emphasized by the following Qur'anic verse: “... whoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption and mischief in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them became prodigals in the earth” (the Qur’an, 5: 32). In fact, Muslims serve for life, not for death. In Islam and other religions, all men are equal, regardless of color, language, race, or nationality.

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Islam is so damn pretty I just cant stop looking @ it.

 

[Kalam]

57 Muslim countries all in contravention of Islam?

That observation didn't originate with me.

Islam cannot fulfill its role except by taking concrete form in a society, rather, in a nation; for man does not listen, especially in this age, to an abstract theory which is not seen materialized in a living society. From this point of view, we can say that the Muslim community has been extinct for a few centuries, for this Muslim community does not denote the name of a land in which Islam resides, nor is it a people whose forefathers lived under the Islamic system at some earlier time. It is the name of a group of people whose manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria, are all derived from the Islamic source. The Muslim community with these characteristics vanished at the moment the laws of God became suspended on earth.
http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/Introduction.htm
....

If we look at the sources and foundations of modern ways of living, it becomes clear that the whole world is steeped in Jahiliyyah, and all the marvellous material comforts and high-level inventions do not diminish this ignorance. This Jahiliyyah is based on rebellion against God's sovereignty on earth. It transfers to man one of the greatest attributes of God, namely sovereignty, and makes some men lords over others. It is now not in that simple and primitive form of the ancient Jahiliyyah, but takes the form of claiming that the right to create values, to legislate rules of collective behavior, and to choose any way of life rests with men, without regard to what God has prescribed. The result of this rebellion against the authority of God is the oppression of His creatures. Thus the humiliation of the common man under the communist systems and the exploitation of individuals and nations due to greed for wealth and imperialism under the capitalist systems are but a corollary of rebellion against God's authority and the denial of the dignity of man given to him by God. http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/Introduction.htm

("Milestones")

 

[Sky Dancer]

Is there any such state at this moment?

Not one with control over the territory it claims, no. Somalia's ICU almost had it right, but its structure wasn't unitary enough and corrupting influences such as al-Qa'idah reduced its youth movement to the sorry group of delinquents we see running around today.

So, call me when either one of the 57 Muslim countries is practicing the values you espouse,or when Muslims create another Muslim country and show this legitimate Islamic state with a functioning judicial system.

I will then look deeper. Until then, it's pretty much up in the air where Sky Dancer is as well.

Nice air up there. Rather thin though. One loses some of their lucidity when that high up.

Where you want to live moment to moment? In love or hate?

 

[Kalam]

So are all those protesters demonstrating against the governments in the ME committing treason because they are going against their leader?

...No, they're duty-bound to oppose their governments because those governments are neglectful of Shari'ah.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The link in in the post.
What does that mean preserve decent values

Obviously, what you and I think it means are completely different because you are a cynic and I am not. Decent values are what is virtuous.

"According to Islam there are five basic values for humanity, which are advised to be protected every time. Depending on circumstances to build up harmony and universal peace, advises to preserve the five basic values at the lowest level or the barest minimum for an acceptable level of living. These basic values therefore includes the ability to perform moral responsibilities; protection of life, securing food, clothing and shelter, education, the right to earn a living, to set up a family, etc. It is to be understood that at this level, one has enough to live but not necessarily to be in some comfort. Islam preaches to that a human being cannot live without these basic values. Individuals and states are advised to protect or at least to respect these basic values."
MORE AT LINK ON ISLAMIC NORMS AND VALUES:
NORMS AND VALUES IN ISLAM

So you just accept a bunch of unattributed gibberish whose context or veracity you dont know or care to know. just the first link on Google under Islam decent values and that is it?

So let look at it through the eyes of a cynic from your link

A) Life (Physical Self): This includes basic items such as food, clothing, shelter, transport, health etc. In other words, physical self means all those that could provide a healthy body to lead a purposeful life. Islam, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is emphasized by the following Qur'anic verse: “... whoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption and mischief in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! Many of them became prodigals in the earth” (the Qur’an, 5: 32). In fact, Muslims serve for life, not for death. In Islam and other religions, all men are equal, regardless of color, language, race, or nationality.

Meaning of Mischief

In his Tafsir, As-Suddi said that Ibn `Abbas and Ibn Mas`ud commented,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,'' they say: "We are only peacemakers.'') "They are the hypocrites. As for,

[لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,

[وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِى الأَرْضِ]

(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth. Peace on both the earth and in the heavens is ensured (and earned) through obedience (to Allah).'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and Qatadah said similarly.
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Islam is so damn pretty I just cant stop looking @ it.

Nothing 'gibberish' about what I posted. It is as clear as crystal. Your choice to ignore it and keep your negative view of the ENTIRE RELIGION and all people who practice it.

My heroes are the Tibetan lamas who transformed the hearts of their torturers by their love. That is what impresses me.

 

[Ropey]

57 Muslim countries all in contravention of Islam?

That observation didn't originate with me.

Islam cannot fulfill its role except by taking concrete form in a society, rather, in a nation; for man does not listen, especially in this age, to an abstract theory which is not seen materialized in a living society. From this point of view, we can say that the Muslim community has been extinct for a few centuries, for this Muslim community does not denote the name of a land in which Islam resides, nor is it a people whose forefathers lived under the Islamic system at some earlier time. It is the name of a group of people whose manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria, are all derived from the Islamic source. The Muslim community with these characteristics vanished at the moment the laws of God became suspended on earth.

....

If we look at the sources and foundations of modern ways of living, it becomes clear that the whole world is steeped in Jahiliyyah, and all the marvellous material comforts and high-level inventions do not diminish this ignorance. This Jahiliyyah is based on rebellion against God's sovereignty on earth. It transfers to man one of the greatest attributes of God, namely sovereignty, and makes some men lords over others. It is now not in that simple and primitive form of the ancient Jahiliyyah, but takes the form of claiming that the right to create values, to legislate rules of collective behavior, and to choose any way of life rests with men, without regard to what God has prescribed. The result of this rebellion against the authority of God is the oppression of His creatures. Thus the humiliation of the common man under the communist systems and the exploitation of individuals and nations due to greed for wealth and imperialism under the capitalist systems are but a corollary of rebellion against God's authority and the denial of the dignity of man given to him by God.

("Milestones")

You can't hold onto what you have when you don't have it anymore?

You have a point. Islam is the bottle of beer?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

unattributed gibberish whose context or veracity you dont know or care to know

I see you chose to ignore the deeper look.

 

[Sky Dancer]

unattributed gibberish whose context or veracity you dont know or care to know

I see you chose to ignore the deeper look.

The deeper look is to find buddha nature in ALL beings. I read those passages and I don't read hatred or world domination motivation at all.

The Bible says to obey God. The Q'uran says the same.

Muslims have saints too. Here, open your mind:
http://www.omphaloskepsis.com/ebooks/pdf/mussm.pdf

 

[Kalam]

You can't hold onto what you have when you don't have it anymore?

You have a point. Islam is the bottle of beer?

The analogy doesn't really fit since nobody stole it.