Zone1 Can you find the Flaw in Atheist Speaker Christopher Hitchens' Logic Here.

[JoeB131]

I assume he means the Jews, and later, the Christians. These type folks never have a negative word to say about Islam or Muslims.

Actually, Hitchens said bad stuff about the Muslims all the time.

Here's the problem with Muslims. It's not that their religion is better than yours, nor is it really worse.

Our problem with the Islamic World has never been their religion; it's been our imperialistic policies. We just picked up where the British and French left off.

 

[alang1216]

There is a lot of wisdom in Genesis far beyond the tome it was written. These are allegories not literal so the meaning is more than whats simply stated. Children do suffer the sins of the parents when parents are bad parents

You have the advantage I do not. I can only read what is written and can't interpret the words as I wish.

 

[ding]

What about the peoples who lived and died before Jesus? Did they get their shot at heaven?

If only you were as relentless in your pursuit of God as you are in pursuit of rejecting God.

Yes, people who lived and died before Jesus had a "shot" at heaven, generally understood as being saved by faith in God, though they awaited the completion of Christ's sacrifice to enter heaven. They resided in a place of comfort often called "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise" (a section of Sheol/Hades) until Jesus opened heaven's gates.

• Faith-Based Salvation: Just like post-Jesus believers, Old Testament figures were saved by God's grace through faith, not by works or just law-keeping.
• The Waiting Period: Before the crucifixion, souls of the faithful dead went to a "holding place" called the "Bosom of Abraham," where they were comforted rather than tormented.
• Jesus’ Descent: Catholic teaching and many Protestant views hold that Jesus went to this realm after his death to proclaim the good news and release the souls of the faithful to heaven.
• Retroactive Redemption: The cross works backward in time; the faithful before Jesus were saved by the future promise of the Messiah.
• Alternative View: Some interpretations, particularly from Jehovah’s Witnesses, suggest that all people who died before Jesus remain in their graves, sleeping until a future resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous.

Ultimately, the consensus is that the faithful who died before Jesus did not perish, but were saved by God through their faith in His promise.

 

[ding]

You have the advantage I do not. I can only read what is written and can't interpret the words as I wish.

Your disadvantage - especially in the OT - is in your interpretation of what is written as proven by posts #130 and #139 in this thread.

It's funny how you never use the NT for your charges against God.

 

[alang1216]

They had the same free will everybody else has. Nobody defended the coliseums, so I guess you're just throwing stuff around hoping something sticks here. Christians didn't build the coliseums.

You're right, the coliseum was built by those feral, savage Roman, who conquered and tortured. You know, civilized stuff.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Actually, Hitchens said bad stuff about the Muslims all the time.

Here's the problem with Muslims. It's not that their religion is better than yours, nor is it really worse.

Our problem with the Islamic World has never been their religion; it's been our imperialistic policies. We just picked up where the British and French left off.

Spot on! Arabs and Muslims have always been peace loving lil hobbits and never invaded anyone else.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

You're right, the coliseum was built by those feral, savage Roman, who conquered and tortured. You know, civilized stuff.

Yes, pagans, not Christians. Maybe you can't tell the difference, but there is a definite difference

 

[JoeB131]

Spot on! Arabs and Muslims have always been peace loving lil hobbits and never invaded anyone else.

Um, okay, so when was the last time they actually "invaded" someone else? You have to go back to the Ottoman Empire for that.

 

[Hafar1014]

If only you were as relentless in your pursuit of God as you are in pursuit of rejecting God.

Yes, people who lived and died before Jesus had a "shot" at heaven, generally understood as being saved by faith in God, though they awaited the completion of Christ's sacrifice to enter heaven. They resided in a place of comfort often called "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise" (a section of Sheol/Hades) until Jesus opened heaven's gates.

• Faith-Based Salvation: Just like post-Jesus believers, Old Testament figures were saved by God's grace through faith, not by works or just law-keeping.
• The Waiting Period: Before the crucifixion, souls of the faithful dead went to a "holding place" called the "Bosom of Abraham," where they were comforted rather than tormented.
• Jesus’ Descent: Catholic teaching and many Protestant views hold that Jesus went to this realm after his death to proclaim the good news and release the souls of the faithful to heaven.
• Retroactive Redemption: The cross works backward in time; the faithful before Jesus were saved by the future promise of the Messiah.
• Alternative View: Some interpretations, particularly from Jehovah’s Witnesses, suggest that all people who died before Jesus remain in their graves, sleeping until a future resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous.

Ultimately, the consensus is that the faithful who died before Jesus did not perish, but were saved by God through their faith in His promise.

If thats true then who needs Jesus you didnt think this through

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Um, okay, so when was the last time they actually "invaded" someone else? You have to go back to the Ottoman Empire for that.

lol seriously???

 

[alang1216]

There's moral ambiguity everywhere for people who don't believe morals exist.

Exodus 34:7 and 2 Samuel 21 illustrate that children can experience negative consequences, or "suffer," due to the sins of their parents, often manifesting as natural, familial, or social repercussions across generations. While interpreted by some as a direct divine punishment, it is often understood as the lasting impact of wrongdoing rather than the individual being held guilty for another's actions.

Key interpretations regarding this concept include:

• Generational Consequences (Natural Results): Many interpretations emphasize that sin creates a lasting legacy. For example, parents’ actions like addiction, abuse, or idolatry can create, or "pass down," environments that negatively affect children.
• The "Third and Fourth Generation" Context: In Exodus 34:7, the punishment of children is often associated with cases where the descendants continue in the same sins as their ancestors (repetition of mistakes).
• Individual Responsibility: Other biblical passages, such as Ezekiel 18:20, emphasize that each person is accountable for their own sins, stating that the child will not share the punishment for the parent’s iniquity.
• Breaking the Cycle: The focus is frequently on the potential for individuals to break these generational cycles through repentance and conscious, righteous choices.

Ultimately, while the Bible acknowledges that actions have long-reaching effects on families, it distinguishes between bearing the consequences of a parent's sin and being held guilty for it.

I only read what was written, I leave others to interpret what is not written.

Exod 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I Yhwh your God am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who reject Me,

 

[alang1216]

It's funny how you never use the NT for your charges against God.

Totally different God in the NT.

 

[Hafar1014]

Yes, pagans, not Christians. Maybe you can't tell the difference, but there is a definite difference

What about the Crusades

 

[22lcidw]

Actually, Hitchens said bad stuff about the Muslims all the time.

Here's the problem with Muslims. It's not that their religion is better than yours, nor is it really worse.

Our problem with the Islamic World has never been their religion; it's been our imperialistic policies. We just picked up where the British and French left off.

They wanted to take over Europe a millennium ago. Imperialism.

 

[EdwinAMartin]

What about the Crusades

What about them? You mean Muslims had a right to invade and take over whoever they want, and Christians are bad for taking them back and defending themselves from Muslim invaders?

 

[EdwinAMartin]

They wanted to take over Europe a millennium ago. Imperialism.

Joe apparently thinks that if they get their asses handed to them then they aren't guilty of 'imperialism n stuff'. Just weird commie mental illness at work.

 

[Hafar1014]

What about them? You mean Muslims had a right to invade and take over whoever they want, and Christians are bad for taking them back and defending themselves from Muslim invaders?

Christian aggression
The Crusades were a series of religious and military expeditions sanctioned by the Latin Church between 1095 and 1291. Primarily, these campaigns were launched by Western European Christians to reclaim control of Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule.
History.com +1




Major Crusades Summary
While there were many smaller expeditions, historians typically identify eight major Crusades:
History.com +1

• First Crusade (1096–1099): The most successful, resulting in the capture of Jerusalem and the establishment of "Crusader States" like the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the County of Edessa.
• Second Crusade (1147–1149): Launched after the fall of Edessa, this campaign ended in a humiliating defeat for European forces at the Siege of Damascus.
• Third Crusade (1189–1192): Known as the "Kings' Crusade," it was led by figures like Richard the Lionheart and Saladin. It failed to retake Jerusalem but secured a treaty for pilgrim access.
• Fourth Crusade (1202–1204): Famously diverted from the Holy Land, it ended with the Sack of Constantinople, a fellow Christian city, which deepened the East-West Schism.
• Later Crusades (1217–1291): These included the Fifth through Eighth Crusades, which largely focused on attacking Egypt or Tunis with limited success.
  Encyclopedia Britannica +7

Key Motivations and Impact

• Religious Zeal: Many participated for the "remission of sins" or the belief that they were performing God's work.
• Geopolitics: The campaigns were initially a response to a plea from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I for help against the Seljuk Turks.
• Economic & Social Change: The Crusades stimulated European trade, introduced new goods like spices and textiles, and contributed to the rise of powerful city-states like Venice.
• Historical Legacy: The wars left a legacy of deep-seated religious tension between the West and the Middle East, while also facilitating the exchange of scientific and philosophical knowledge that eventually helped spark the Renaissance.
  Encyclopedia Britannica +4

Would you like to dive deeper into a specific Crusade or learn more about a particular figure like Richard the Lionheart or Saladin?

AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses

12 sites

• The Crusades: Definition, Religious Wars & Facts | HISTORY
  Table of contents * 1. What Were the Crusades? * 2. When Were the Crusades? * 3. The First Crusade (1096-1099) * 4. The Fall of Je...
  
  
  History.com·HISTORY.com Editors
  
  
  1:59
  
  
• Crusades | Definition, History, Map, Significance, & Legacy | Britannica
  Crusades Crusaders departing for the Holy Land, chromolithograph of a 15th-century illuminated manuscript. * How many Crusades wer...
  
  Encyclopedia Britannica
  
  
  
  
• What were the Crusades? - Live Science
  The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated in 1095 by the Roman Catholic Church. They continued, in various forms, for...
  
  Live Science
  
  
  
  

 

[EdwinAMartin]

Christian aggression
The Crusades were a series of religious and military expeditions sanctioned by the Latin Church between 1095 and 1291. Primarily, these campaigns were launched by Western European Christians to reclaim control of Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule.
History.com +1




Major Crusades Summary
While there were many smaller expeditions, historians typically identify eight major Crusades:
History.com +1

• First Crusade (1096–1099): The most successful, resulting in the capture of Jerusalem and the establishment of "Crusader States" like the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the County of Edessa.
• Second Crusade (1147–1149): Launched after the fall of Edessa, this campaign ended in a humiliating defeat for European forces at the Siege of Damascus.
• Third Crusade (1189–1192): Known as the "Kings' Crusade," it was led by figures like Richard the Lionheart and Saladin. It failed to retake Jerusalem but secured a treaty for pilgrim access.
• Fourth Crusade (1202–1204): Famously diverted from the Holy Land, it ended with the Sack of Constantinople, a fellow Christian city, which deepened the East-West Schism.
• Later Crusades (1217–1291): These included the Fifth through Eighth Crusades, which largely focused on attacking Egypt or Tunis with limited success.
  Encyclopedia Britannica +7

Key Motivations and Impact

• Religious Zeal: Many participated for the "remission of sins" or the belief that they were performing God's work.
• Geopolitics: The campaigns were initially a response to a plea from the Byzantine Emperor Alexius I for help against the Seljuk Turks.
• Economic & Social Change: The Crusades stimulated European trade, introduced new goods like spices and textiles, and contributed to the rise of powerful city-states like Venice.
• Historical Legacy: The wars left a legacy of deep-seated religious tension between the West and the Middle East, while also facilitating the exchange of scientific and philosophical knowledge that eventually helped spark the Renaissance.
  Encyclopedia Britannica +4

Would you like to dive deeper into a specific Crusade or learn more about a particular figure like Richard the Lionheart or Saladin?

AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses

12 sites

• The Crusades: Definition, Religious Wars & Facts | HISTORY
  Table of contents * 1. What Were the Crusades? * 2. When Were the Crusades? * 3. The First Crusade (1096-1099) * 4. The Fall of Je...
  
  
  History.com·HISTORY.com Editors
  
  
  1:59
  
  
• Crusades | Definition, History, Map, Significance, & Legacy | Britannica
  Crusades Crusaders departing for the Holy Land, chromolithograph of a 15th-century illuminated manuscript. * How many Crusades wer...
  
  Encyclopedia Britannica
  
  
  
  
• What were the Crusades? - Live Science
  The Crusades were a series of religious wars initiated in 1095 by the Roman Catholic Church. They continued, in various forms, for...
  
  Live Science
  
  
  View attachment 1228069

Spam. You don't know a thing about it.

 

[Hafar1014]

Spam. You don't know a thing about it.

 

[alang1216]

If only you were as relentless in your pursuit of God as you are in pursuit of rejecting God.

Yes, people who lived and died before Jesus had a "shot" at heaven, generally understood as being saved by faith in God, though they awaited the completion of Christ's sacrifice to enter heaven. They resided in a place of comfort often called "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise" (a section of Sheol/Hades) until Jesus opened heaven's gates.

• Faith-Based Salvation: Just like post-Jesus believers, Old Testament figures were saved by God's grace through faith, not by works or just law-keeping.
• The Waiting Period: Before the crucifixion, souls of the faithful dead went to a "holding place" called the "Bosom of Abraham," where they were comforted rather than tormented.
• Jesus’ Descent: Catholic teaching and many Protestant views hold that Jesus went to this realm after his death to proclaim the good news and release the souls of the faithful to heaven.
• Retroactive Redemption: The cross works backward in time; the faithful before Jesus were saved by the future promise of the Messiah.
• Alternative View: Some interpretations, particularly from Jehovah’s Witnesses, suggest that all people who died before Jesus remain in their graves, sleeping until a future resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous.

Ultimately, the consensus is that the faithful who died before Jesus did not perish, but were saved by God through their faith in His promise.

Did pagans get saved by faith in one of their gods?