Abortions - The Truth - The Killing of Unborn Children

[MissileMan]

Let's see here....

1. There are about 1 million abortions performed in this country each year.
2. Abortion has been legal for almost 33 years.
3. Assuming that the number of abortions each year has remained constant over the past 33 years
4. Meaning that abortion has killed more Americans than all the wars fought by this country, it has killed more Americans than any epidemic e.g. influenza or AIDS

I could go out on a limb and claim that abortion has a long term negative effect on society and our economy. We do, after all, have 33 million fewer people than we would have if abortion were never legal. That means there are 33 million fewer tax payers, 33 million few consumers, 33 million few people who could have contributed to our economy through innovation, and 33 million fewer people having babies. Within the next 40 or 50 years, if present trends continue, America's population will begin to decline.... what are the effects of a declining population?

You make an awful lot of assumptions in this post, the biggest one being the equation of an unborn fetus to a U.S. soldier. It's a poor comparison.

You then go on to make some less than realistic assumptions of what the lives of these potential 33 million Americans might have been like. What percentage of those do you figure might have wound up in foster programs being raised on tax-payer dollars, not contributing to society but putting a drain on it? What percentage of those unwanted babies do you estimate would have wound up permanent welfare recipients, again, draining, not contributing? How many would have become criminals? How many would have wound up in prison? How many unemployed? How many disabled?

 

[Hobbit]

You make an awful lot of assumptions in this post, the biggest one being the equation of an unborn fetus to a U.S. soldier. It's a poor comparison.

You then go on to make some less than realistic assumptions of what the lives of these potential 33 million Americans might have been like. What percentage of those do you figure might have wound up in foster programs being raised on tax-payer dollars, not contributing to society but putting a drain on it? What percentage of those unwanted babies do you estimate would have wound up permanent welfare recipients, again, draining, not contributing? How many would have become criminals? How many would have wound up in prison? How many unemployed? How many disabled?

And how many, if given the chance, would actually make it so that they were never born? In fact, do you know anybody who would actually rather have been aborted?

A life that we may view as miserable is still a life. Do you really think we're qualified to say that death would be better for some people?

 

[LuvRPgrl]

WOW! An abortion debate. How new..

 

[MissileMan]

And how many, if given the chance, would actually make it so that they were never born? In fact, do you know anybody who would actually rather have been aborted?

Dunno, ask someone who's committed suicide.

A life that we may view as miserable is still a life. Do you really think we're qualified to say that death would be better for some people?

IMO, a certain amount of fetal development must take place before we're talking about people.

 

[KarlMarx]

You make an awful lot of assumptions in this post, the biggest one being the equation of an unborn fetus to a U.S. soldier. It's a poor comparison.

You then go on to make some less than realistic assumptions of what the lives of these potential 33 million Americans might have been like. What percentage of those do you figure might have wound up in foster programs being raised on tax-payer dollars, not contributing to society but putting a drain on it? What percentage of those unwanted babies do you estimate would have wound up permanent welfare recipients, again, draining, not contributing? How many would have become criminals? How many would have wound up in prison? How many unemployed? How many disabled?

A soldier is a person, so is an unborn fetus, they're the same. The only reason I can think of that you don't see it that way is that you've conditioned yourself to regarding fetuses as not being persons.

To answer your question, what percentage would have wound up on various programs and the like? The same percentage as the general population, which means "a minority". Most people aren't on welfare, in foster homes, in prison and the like.

You make the assumption that most of those abortions took place because of welfare moms, many were not. You also assume that the children of mothers that are on welfare stay on welfare and remain poor. Most people who are poor do not remain in that condition, there is a thing called "class mobility" in our economy.

Certainly there are families who remain poor from generation to generation. We don't address that problem by killing people. To prove a point let me make an analogy. I suppose if I were to state that we should require women on welfare to become sterilized you'd likely object. But that would keep the population of the poor down, just like you are inferring abortion does.

The fact that you mention "disabled" children touched a nerve. I am the parent of a disabled child. Keep in mind the Nazis wanted the disabled exterminated, too. The disabled have just as much right to a life as anyone else.

MM, you proved our point. The logic of the abortionist is similar to the logic of Heinrich Himmler and Adolph Hitler. You want to use abortion to do some kind of social engineering (keep the population of poor people down, eliminate the disabled) and you want to play God (you want to give people the right to determine who has a right to live or die).

I believe that people, born and unborn, have legal protections under the law. You don't arbitrarily take those rights away to achieve some kind of quota or social goal.

Keep in mind that your logic could be applied to old persons as well. Many are poor and many are disabled and the elderly are becoming an increasing percentage of our population. Someday, you and I will both be old. I for one, would not want to fall victim to your logic. I can't speak for you, but I'll guess you feel the same way.

 

[MissileMan]

I can make my own arguments very well thanks...I don't need you to put words in MY mouth. I've never said anything remotely resembling using abortion for social engineering, nor have I implied it. You painted an unrealistic picture of how wonderful things would have been if we had not performed 33 million abortions. I was pointing out that you were assuming that all of them would have been happy, healthy, positive additions to society and clearly, not all of them would have been.

A soldier is a person, so is an unborn fetus, they're the same. The only reason I can think of that you don't see it that way is that you've conditioned yourself to regarding fetuses as not being persons.

As I've stated on many occasions, I believe that a certain amount of development must occur before a fetus is a person. Until that development has occurred, I don't believe that a comparison to an adult makes any sense.

You make the assumption that most of those abortions took place because of welfare moms, many were not. You also assume that the children of mothers that are on welfare stay on welfare and remain poor. Most people who are poor do not remain in that condition, there is a thing called "class mobility" in our economy.

The only assumption I am making is that the majority of these pregnancies (and therefore, babies) were unwanted. One thing for sure, a baby born to a welfare mom would more likely than not have spent over half of those 33 years on welfare also.

Certainly there are families who remain poor from generation to generation. We don't address that problem by killing people. To prove a point let me make an analogy. I suppose if I were to state that we should require women on welfare to become sterilized you'd likely object. But that would keep the population of the poor down, just like you are inferring abortion does.

Actually, a woman without the ability to take care of herself has no business making more babies. While I would be against sterilization, mandatory birth control, and pending failure of that birth control, an abortion would be reasonable. BTW, I was not inferring that abortion is population control for the poor, you again are attempting to put words in my mouth.

The fact that you mention "disabled" children touched a nerve. I am the parent of a disabled child. Keep in mind the Nazis wanted the disabled exterminated, too. The disabled have just as much right to a life as anyone else.

I only mentioned the disabled from the standpoint of additional costs for care that some require, again, only to add some touches of reality to the rosey picture you painted.

MM, you proved our point. The logic of the abortionist is similar to the logic of Heinrich Himmler and Adolph Hitler. You want to use abortion to do some kind of social engineering (keep the population of poor people down, eliminate the disabled) and you want to play God (you want to give people the right to determine who has a right to live or die).

I believe that people, born and unborn, have legal protections under the law. You don't arbitrarily take those rights away to achieve some kind of quota or social goal.

Keep in mind that your logic could be applied to old persons as well. Many are poor and many are disabled and the elderly are becoming an increasing percentage of our population. Someday, you and I will both be old. I for one, would not want to fall victim to your logic. I can't speak for you, but I'll guess you feel the same way.

These last 3 paragraphs are more of you saying that I said something I didn't.

 

[KarlMarx]

You painted an unrealistic picture of how wonderful things would have been if we had not performed 33 million abortions. I was pointing out that you were assuming that all of them would have been happy, healthy, positive additions to society and clearly, not all of them would have been.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Did I say they all would be happy and healthy?

As I've stated on many occasions, I believe that a certain amount of development must occur before a fetus is a person. Until that development has occurred, I don't believe that a comparison to an adult makes any sense.

And abortion is legal up to the point of birth. So even by your own logic, some abortions are murder.

The only assumption I am making is that the majority of these pregnancies (and therefore, babies) were unwanted. One thing for sure, a baby born to a welfare mom would more likely than not have spent over half of those 33 years on welfare also.

You assume all welfare mothers stay on welfare. Not all do. Still even if most do, that is not an argument for abortion, but an argument for welfare reform.

Actually, a woman without the ability to take care of herself has no business making more babies. While I would be against sterilization, mandatory birth control, and pending failure of that birth control, an abortion would be reasonable. BTW, I was not inferring that abortion is population control for the poor, you again are attempting to put words in my mouth.

So in the case of teenager girls (assuming that they fit the definition of "women") who get pregnant. You just said that they have no business making more babies (since they can't take care of themselves). So..... isn't that population control?

I only mentioned the disabled from the standpoint of additional costs for care that some require, again, only to add some touches of reality to the rosey picture you painted.

I'm very familiar with the challenges of dealing with the disabled, thank you. And I don't think it's all daisies and buttercups.

 

[007]

I would agree that Social abortion is "the LEGAL, WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER of the unborn?"

I still beleive that you have a right to defend your own existance, against any one or anything.

I have no damn clue what you're trying to say here....

.... are you saying that somehow "unborn babies" are a THREAT to SOCIETY?

 

[007]

I never said they aren’t …We don’t know.



Facing the truth or should I say “your” truth about abortion, has nothing at all to do with my posts in this thread. I have no intention of discrediting the pics. They are what they are we just don’t know what they really are, based on this guys past.

Nice try to twist shit councilor, ya failed BAD.

Mr. P... Mr. P... once again taking the liberals stance. You leave me believing you ARE a LIBERAL.

The jist of the post is, abortion is the murder of the unborn. I couldn't care less who the hell "say's" or "illustrates" that, it's the truth no matter what source it comes from.

And are the pictures real? Well, lets think about that... if they are, then they are. If they're not, then someone did one hell of a job "staging" an abortion, and someone did one hell of a job "staging" the thrown away fetus. Looks just like "the real thing" doesn't it.

There's two sides to this issue, and I'm just purporting mine. Abortion is murder, no matter who say's it's not, it still is. And if the pictures of murdered babies ripped from their thoughtless, heartless, uncaring mother's wombs bother you, then don't ever get your girlfriend/wife pregnant and take her to the abortion clinic and hold her hand, because you'll get an up close and personal look at the face of a PERSON that YOU, the MOTHER, and the DOCTOR all just had a hand in KILLING! I hope you'd be able to enjoy your day after that.

"Hey, what did you guys do today"?
"Oh, we went down to the doctors office and HAD OUR KID KILLED". "What did you do"?
"Oh, not much". "Hey, you guys hungry"? "How 'bout some lunch"?
"Sure Bud... pizza sound good"?

 

[007]

Man, ya want me to tell you about seeing a chest tube inserted into this guy that was conscious? Boy did he scream…They make this incision between the rib and…….

Incision my ass. They give you some morphine and start shoving. At least that's what they did to me. I had TWO of them. And no I didn't "scream", but yes I moaned in agony. I remember hearing the doctor saying, "five more cc's of morphine", like four times. I finaly passed out... thankfully.

(Maybe they did make an incision... I don't remember for sure.)

 

[007]

Not to be flipant, but most of those 33m. persons would most likely have been democrats. NOW that is something to think about.

:rotflmao:

 

[musicman]

As I've stated on many occasions, I believe that a certain amount of development must occur before a fetus is a person. Until that development has occurred, I don't believe that a comparison to an adult makes any sense.

Please indicate the precise amount of development necessary to make that determination. If I'm going to play God games, then I need God knowledge. At what exact moment does human life begin?

 

[007]

As I've stated on many occasions, I believe that a certain amount of development must occur before a fetus is a person. Until that development has occurred, I don't believe that a comparison to an adult makes any sense.

This statement just irks the shit out of me. For the simple reason, what you are saying is, "it's not a human being until I say so". Well that's just the biggest gob of horse shit I've ever heard. Life is life. It's ALL alive. The "egg" is alive. The "sperm" is alive. And as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg, a *HUMAN BEING* is being formed, and it's ALIVE. It's LIFE. And to abort it, AT ANY STAGE, is MURDER!

So stick your "it's not soup yet" reasoning where the sun don't shine...

 

[KarlMarx]

This statement just irks the shit out of me. For the simple reason, what you are saying is, "it's not a human being until I say so". Well that's just the biggest gob of horse shit I've ever heard. Life is life. It's ALL alive. The "egg" is alive. The "sperm" is alive. And as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg, a *HUMAN BEING* is being formed, and it's ALIVE. It's LIFE. And to abort it, AT ANY STAGE, is MURDER!

Hey Pale...

Let me cheer you up....

MM doesn't take into consideration that abortion is not always the choice of the mother. There are parents, doctors, husbands, boyfriends (especially those) that pressure mothers into getting an abortion.

The boyfriend that says "either you get an abortion or I'm out the door"....

The doctor who says "you're too old to have children"

The grandmother or parent that says "get an abortion, you're too young to have kids..."

it not only happens, I know it does, these three examples are from accounts of people that I know....

In one of the cases, the mother told the person in no uncertain terms to drop dead, had the baby, the baby grew up, has a white collar job, got married and had kids of their own (To MM's chagrin, that person isn't on the welfare roles, not in prison or otherwise being a burden to society.... better luck next time)

 

[MissileMan]

Hey Pale...

Let me cheer you up....

MM doesn't take into consideration that abortion is not always the choice of the mother. There are parents, doctors, husbands, boyfriends (especially those) that pressure mothers into getting an abortion.

The boyfriend that says "either you get an abortion or I'm out the door"....

The doctor who says "you're too old to have children"

The grandmother or parent that says "get an abortion, you're too young to have kids..."

it not only happens, I know it does, these three examples are from accounts of people that I know....

In one of the cases, the mother told the person in no uncertain terms to drop dead, had the baby, the baby grew up, has a white collar job, got married and had kids of their own (To MM's chagrin, that person isn't on the welfare roles, not in prison or otherwise being a burden to society.... better luck next time)

Lookie here Dumbass! You said: "I could go out on a limb and claim that abortion has a long term negative effect on society and our economy. We do, after all, have 33 million fewer people than we would have if abortion were never legal. That means there are 33 million fewer tax payers, 33 million few consumers, 33 million few people who could have contributed to our economy through innovation, and 33 million fewer people having babies. Within the next 40 or 50 years, if present trends continue, America's population will begin to decline.... what are the effects of a declining population?"

You made the assertion that all 33 million would have a positive effect on our society and economy. When I pointed out that your assertion didn't hold water, you started with your bullshit attempt to make it appear that I am in favor of abortion as a form of Nazi-esque social engineering. I believe that's a tactic you accuse liberal posters of using...are you a liberal?

 

[MissileMan]

Please indicate the precise amount of development necessary to make that determination. If I'm going to play God games, then I need God knowledge. At what exact moment does human life begin?

Get off your pedestal! Extending life through medical means is playing "god games" the way you are using it.

I've made my position very clear on several occasions. Abortions should be unrestricted through the first trimester, after that, carry to term unless the mother's health is at risk.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Get off your pedestal! Extending life through medical means is playing "god games" the way you are using it.

I've made my position very clear on several occasions. Abortions should be unrestricted through the first trimester, after that, carry to term unless the mother's health is at risk.

arbitrary much. Life begins when you say huh? Oh really. You're pathetic. The evil you countenance is atrocious.

 

[MissileMan]

And abortion is legal up to the point of birth. So even by your own logic, some abortions are murder.

I never said otherwise.

So in the case of teenager girls (assuming that they fit the definition of "women") who get pregnant. You just said that they have no business making more babies (since they can't take care of themselves). So..... isn't that population control?

Until such time as this theoretical teenaged girl gets her shit together, as in, finishes education, gets a job making it possible to get off/stay off welfare, or gets married, she shouldn't be allowed to make more babies. How do you think we wind up with career welfare recipients?

I'm very familiar with the challenges of dealing with the disabled, thank you. And I don't think it's all daisies and buttercups.

I'm sure you don't. The rosey picture I was referring to was your initial 33 million one.

 

[dilloduck]

Until such time as this theoretical teenaged girl gets her shit together, as in, finishes education, gets a job making it possible to get off/stay off welfare, or gets married, she shouldn't be allowed to make more babies. How do you think we wind up with career welfare recipients?

We have welfare recipients because abortion proponents will only kill humans before they are born---so far.

 

[MissileMan]

arbitrary much. Life begins when you say huh? Oh really. You're pathetic. The evil you countenance is atrocious.

So, women should be compelled to obey the rules YOU put forth?