Abortions: Should Women be Allowed to Choose?

[koshergrl]

"False dilemma can arise intentionally, when fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

 

[JoeB131]

[

Progressives always believe there are degrees of humanity, and they always will.

People who are deserving of life, and people who aren't. People who have value, and people who don't.

and you are saying conservatives don't?

When they cut school lunches, medicare, fight Obamacare tooth and nail to preserve tax cuts for rich douchebags, they aren't saying they think rich people have more value than poor ones.

We have more abortions than any other industrialized country because of conservative policies.

 

[TemplarKormac]

[

Progressives always believe there are degrees of humanity, and they always will.

People who are deserving of life, and people who aren't. People who have value, and people who don't.

and you are saying conservatives don't?

When they cut school lunches, medicare, fight Obamacare tooth and nail to preserve tax cuts for rich douchebags, they aren't saying they think rich people have more value than poor ones.

We have more abortions than any other industrialized country because of conservative policies.

Thing is, they aren't all rich douchebags. Those tax cuts pertain to the middle class too. Or did you not read that part?

We have more idiots per capita than any other industrialized country no thanks to liberal policies. Abortion is like saying a flower seed will not grow into a flower just because it is a seed. We all know what it will become. Same for a child. You and Noomi have your heads buried too far up your backsides to understand that. Just what happens if your mother had the same attitude you do about abortion? I doubt you would even be here. Might just be theoretical, but its ironic to me that those who favor abortion are those who have already been born.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Progressives always believe there are degrees of humanity, and they always will.

People who are deserving of life, and people who aren't. People who have value, and people who don't.

and you are saying conservatives don't?

When they cut school lunches, medicare, fight Obamacare tooth and nail to preserve tax cuts for rich douchebags, they aren't saying they think rich people have more value than poor ones.

We have more abortions than any other industrialized country because of conservative policies.

Thing is, they aren't all rich douchebags. Those tax cuts pertain to the middle class too. Or did you not read that part?

We have more idiots per capita than any other industrialized country no thanks to liberal policies. Abortion is like saying a flower seed will not grow into a flower just because it is a seed. We all know what it will become. Same for a child. You and Noomi have your heads buried too far up your backsides to understand that. Just what happens if your mother had the same attitude you do about abortion? I doubt you would even be here. Might just be theoretical, but its ironic to me that those who favor abortion are those who have already been born.

If my mother didn't want to have a third child, she would have had a good reason, and frankly, you are running very close to breaking forum rules by throwing in family members.

While I was born in 1962 when that sort of thing was still illegal, the problem was, women were having abortions before Roe.

Women are going to have abortions, NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW IS. So we have to points on the compass of how we deal with this problem.

The conservative view is that we just ban all the abortions and force these poor women to have the abortions. They actually do that in the Philippines. How is that working out?

Abortion in the Philippines: a national secret | Reuters

The 50-year-old grandmother has lost count of the number of pregnancies she has terminated in this largely Roman Catholic country where abortion is illegal and strictly taboo, but where about half a million women end their pregnancies every year...

"I felt guilty but I thought it was better than having another child that will only suffer because we have no food," she said in an interview in a slum on the outskirts of Manila.

Remy bled for a week after her session with the hilot, passing out with the pain. She refused to let her husband take her to the hospital because of the shame of what she had done and because they couldn't afford the medical bills...

Although abortion is rarely discussed publicly in the Philippines, nearly 80,000 women are treated in hospitals every year for complications from induced abortion, according to health reports.

Many are treated roughly by nurses and doctors who abhor what they have done. Painkillers are sometimes withheld. At least 800 women are estimated to die every year from complications.

That's what a country would look like if people like you and Kosherghoul had your way. No thanks. You might think these women "deserve it" for being poor and slutty, I don't.

Conversely, let's look at liberal France. Abortion is legal, the church is thankfully ignored on the subject. The government pays for them. But the government also pays contraception, health care, provides paid family leave, and even has social workers who help new mothers cope in the first months after birth. The kind of social welfare that would drive the right craizer than a box full of ObamaPhones!

How's that working out.

Abortions statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Abortions in the US- # 2 United States: 1,210,880
# 5 France: 161,129

What? They only have a TENTH the number of abortions we have? Really?

 

[TemplarKormac]

and you are saying conservatives don't?

When they cut school lunches, medicare, fight Obamacare tooth and nail to preserve tax cuts for rich douchebags, they aren't saying they think rich people have more value than poor ones.

We have more abortions than any other industrialized country because of conservative policies.

Thing is, they aren't all rich douchebags. Those tax cuts pertain to the middle class too. Or did you not read that part?

We have more idiots per capita than any other industrialized country no thanks to liberal policies. Abortion is like saying a flower seed will not grow into a flower just because it is a seed. We all know what it will become. Same for a child. You and Noomi have your heads buried too far up your backsides to understand that. Just what happens if your mother had the same attitude you do about abortion? I doubt you would even be here. Might just be theoretical, but its ironic to me that those who favor abortion are those who have already been born.

If my mother didn't want to have a third child, she would have had a good reason, and frankly, you are running very close to breaking forum rules by throwing in family members.

While I was born in 1962 when that sort of thing was still illegal, the problem was, women were having abortions before Roe.

Women are going to have abortions, NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW IS. So we have to points on the compass of how we deal with this problem.

The conservative view is that we just ban all the abortions and force these poor women to have the abortions. They actually do that in the Philippines. How is that working out?

Abortion in the Philippines: a national secret | Reuters

The 50-year-old grandmother has lost count of the number of pregnancies she has terminated in this largely Roman Catholic country where abortion is illegal and strictly taboo, but where about half a million women end their pregnancies every year...

"I felt guilty but I thought it was better than having another child that will only suffer because we have no food," she said in an interview in a slum on the outskirts of Manila.

Remy bled for a week after her session with the hilot, passing out with the pain. She refused to let her husband take her to the hospital because of the shame of what she had done and because they couldn't afford the medical bills...

Although abortion is rarely discussed publicly in the Philippines, nearly 80,000 women are treated in hospitals every year for complications from induced abortion, according to health reports.

Many are treated roughly by nurses and doctors who abhor what they have done. Painkillers are sometimes withheld. At least 800 women are estimated to die every year from complications.

That's what a country would look like if people like you and Kosherghoul had your way. No thanks. You might think these women "deserve it" for being poor and slutty, I don't.

Conversely, let's look at liberal France. Abortion is legal, the church is thankfully ignored on the subject. The government pays for them. But the government also pays contraception, health care, provides paid family leave, and even has social workers who help new mothers cope in the first months after birth. The kind of social welfare that would drive the right craizer than a box full of ObamaPhones!

How's that working out.

Abortions statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

Abortions in the US- # 2 United States: 1,210,880
# 5 France: 161,129

What? They only have a TENTH the number of abortions we have? Really?

My bold.

No, its a harsh reality that you refuse to come to grips with. Unless I name them explicitly, threaten them or otherwise slander them, then I haven't broken any rules. It isn't my problem you can't handle the truth.

Bold Italics

Uhh we aren't forcing anyone to have an abortion.. you can't force someone to have an abortion by banning abortions. I swear it's like the ******* Twilight Zone in here.

Bold Italics Underlined

Current US population: 313,914,040
Current France population: 65,436,552

That's why they have a tenth of the abortions we do.

Oh, and if you think America is bad; since China has instituted it's one child policy in 1971, there have been nearly 330,000,000 abortions performed there. That's 8,460,000 abortions a year since it's implementation. But other statistics report that in 2008 alone it aborted over 13,000,000 pregnancies. And yes, that's FORCED abortion. Just imagine how many women die there from complications? Use your imagination.

Current Chinese population: 1,344,130,000

AFP: China performed 330 mn abortions since 1971: data

Don't. Even. Go. There.

Your argument is debunked. We are not the worst when it comes to abortion, China is.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Oh, and Joe, in that list of yours, Russia was #1, they had double the amount of abortions per year that we do. However, that list is not an accurate portrayal, since China routinely classifies its abortion statistics. Gee I wonder why.

 

[JoeB131]

[

My bold.

No, its a harsh reality that you refuse to come to grips with. Unless I name them explicitly, threaten them or otherwise slander them, then I haven't broken any rules. It isn't my problem you can't handle the truth.

Bring up my late mother again, and we'll see. I did give you one warning. That's all you get.

Bold Italics

Uhh we aren't forcing anyone to have an abortion.. you can't force someone to have an abortion by banning abortions. I swear it's like the ******* Twilight Zone in here.

Uh, yeah, we are. When you make the abortion the path of least resistance, the path that doesn't totally screw up your life, you are causing abortions. It's why we have more of them than any other advanced country.

ld Italics Underlined

Current US population: 313,914,040
Current France population: 65,436,552

That's why they have a tenth of the abortions we do.

So you are bad at math? If France has a tenth of our abortions AND a quarter of our population, they are still doing it better.

Here, we'll do the math for you.

US- 1,210,880 abortions divided by 313,914,040 people. 1 abortion for every 259 people.

France - 161,129 abortions for 65,436,552. 1 abortion for every 406 people. France has LESS abortions per capita.

Hey, just for shits and grins, let's throw the Philippines in there. 500,000 estimated abortions for 90 million people. 1 abortion for every 180 people.

Banning abortions DOESN'T WORK. It just makes matters worse.

Oh, and if you think America is bad? Since China has instituted it's one child policy in 1971, there have been nearly 330,000,000 abortions performed there. That's 8,460,000 abortions a year since it's implementation.

Current Chinese population: 1,344,130,000


Don't. Even. Go. There.

I don't think abortion is good or bad. It's just a medical procedure.

In China's case, China was facing an overpopulation problem. They have 1.3 billion people on terrirtory that is about the same size as the US, but most of it crowded onto the eastern coast. They didn't have the technology to feed them all. They'd be a lot worse with another 330 million people in the mix.

I did get to spend time with a visitor from China. Besides the fact that the one-child rule isn't an absolute (you can pay a fine and have a second child), the reality is, living in China is actually kind of dismal. You know what amazed her about Chicago. It was a big city, and the air was not filled with smog. The water was clean.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, and Joe, in that list of yours, Russia was #1, they had double the amount of abortions per year that we do. However, that list is not an accurate portrayal, since China routinely classifies its abortion statistics. Gee I wonder why.

True. Russia does have a higher rate. Russia isn't an advanced industrial democracy, which is why I didn't include it.

The Philippines aren't listed, either. Mostly because they don't like to admit that they have 500K abortions.

However, comparing COMPARABLE advanced countries, like the US, Germany, Italy, France, Canada, we kind of suck.

 

[TemplarKormac]

My bold.

No, its a harsh reality that you refuse to come to grips with. Unless I name them explicitly, threaten them or otherwise slander them, then I haven't broken any rules. It isn't my problem you can't handle the truth.

Bring up my late mother again, and we'll see. I did give you one warning. That's all you get.

Bold Italics

Uhh we aren't forcing anyone to have an abortion.. you can't force someone to have an abortion by banning abortions. I swear it's like the ******* Twilight Zone in here.

Uh, yeah, we are. When you make the abortion the path of least resistance, the path that doesn't totally screw up your life, you are causing abortions. It's why we have more of them than any other advanced country.

Bold Italics Underlined

Current US population: 313,914,040
Current France population: 65,436,552

That's why they have a tenth of the abortions we do.

So you are bad at math? If France has a tenth of our abortions AND a quarter of our population, they are still doing it better.

Here, we'll do the math for you.

US- 1,210,880 abortions divided by 313,914,040 people. 1 abortion for every 259 people.

France - 161,129 abortions for 65,436,552. 1 abortion for every 406 people. France has LESS abortions per capita.

Hey, just for shits and grins, let's throw the Philippines in there. 500,000 estimated abortions for 90 million people. 1 abortion for every 180 people.

Banning abortions DOESN'T WORK. It just makes matters worse.

In China's case, China was facing an overpopulation problem. They have 1.3 billion people on terrirtory that is about the same size as the US, but most of it crowded onto the eastern coast. They didn't have the technology to feed them all. They'd be a lot worse with another 330 million people in the mix.

I did get to spend time with a visitor from China. Besides the fact that the one-child rule isn't an absolute (you can pay a fine and have a second child), the reality is, living in China is actually kind of dismal. You know what amazed her about Chicago. It was a big city, and the air was not filled with smog. The water was clean.

So, how is asking a rhetorical question a violation of the rules? Sensitive much? What is there to get offended about? But can you really sit there and threaten me when I have done nothing wrong? If you don't like the questions, don't take up questionable positions.

And then you said the US was #2 in the world in Abortions, as if we were still the worst no matter who won the top spot. Secondly you said we were forcing abortions? Okay now you have me confused. I thought you were pro-choice? Um... okay...

So which one are you, pro choice or anti both ways? Your positions are extremely confusing.

I don't even think you know what you believe in at the moment.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Oh, and Joe, in that list of yours, Russia was #1, they had double the amount of abortions per year that we do. However, that list is not an accurate portrayal, since China routinely classifies its abortion statistics. Gee I wonder why.

True. Russia does have a higher rate. Russia isn't an advanced industrial democracy, which is why I didn't include it.

The Philippines aren't listed, either. Mostly because they don't like to admit that they have 500K abortions.

However, comparing COMPARABLE advanced countries, like the US, Germany, Italy, France, Canada, we kind of suck.

So, you resort to redacting the facts now? First you threaten me, now you are dishonest with me. If Russia isn't an "advanced industrialized democracy" why are they in the G8?

We don't spin the facts, Joe. Just remember that.

 

[gipper]

So sad...and a perfect example of the age of ignorance we are all suffering under...

 

[TemplarKormac]

duplicate

 

[JustSomeGuy]

No, that's not the question, because the huge majority of abortions have nothing to do with the health of the mother. There is no "it's me or the baby" scenario, and you're lying when you present it as a truth.

Who is more important? Woman or fetus?

And just as important: who decides?

The individual or the state?

The hypocrisy of the right is indeed telling, where government is ‘bad’ and ‘incompetent’ in everything save deciding whether a woman may give birth or not.

The psuedo-intellectualism of the left is truly amazing. This isn't China; the government doesn't nor ever has decided whether a woman may give birth or not.

 

[koshergrl]

[

Progressives always believe there are degrees of humanity, and they always will.

People who are deserving of life, and people who aren't. People who have value, and people who don't.

and you are saying conservatives don't?

When they cut school lunches, medicare, fight Obamacare tooth and nail to preserve tax cuts for rich douchebags, they aren't saying they think rich people have more value than poor ones.

We have more abortions than any other industrialized country because of conservative policies.

What a liar you are. Do you lie continually in real life, as well?

I'm sure you do. And I'm sure it has affected the quality of your life and the lives around you.

 

[Antares]

Yes, but they should have to pay too.

 

[JoeB131]

[

So, you resort to redacting the facts now? First you threaten me, now you are dishonest with me. If Russia isn't an "advanced industrialized democracy" why are they in the G8?

We don't spin the facts, Joe. Just remember that.

No, just becuase they let the wreck of the Soviet Union sit at the big boy table, doesn't make it a big boy.

Let's get real here. Russia ranks 55 on the Human Development index and has a Gini co-efficent of 83. The per capita income wouldn't be minimum wage in the US.

It is hardly a democracy (Putin rules with an iron hand) and it's not really advanced.

 

[JoeB131]

So sad...and a perfect example of the age of ignorance we are all suffering under...

We aren't going to run out of human fetuses. We are going to run out of those other things.

The problem in the world tody is, too many fetuses actually turn into people, and the world can't support them all.

 

[JoeB131]

[

So, how is asking a rhetorical question a violation of the rules? Sensitive much? What is there to get offended about? But can you really sit there and threaten me when I have done nothing wrong? If you don't like the questions, don't take up questionable positions.

Keep making cracks about people's families. My guess is you won't be here long. Did you even BOTHER to read the rules before you got here?

And then you said the US was #2 in the world in Abortions, as if we were still the worst no matter who won the top spot. Secondly you said we were forcing abortions? Okay now you have me confused. I thought you were pro-choice? Um... okay...

No, the only thing that has you confused is tht you are quite possibly slightly retarded.

Frankly, I wouldn't care how many abortions we have, but if you guys care about this so much, why do the other ADVANCED DEMOCRACIES have lower rates? If your goal is "less" abortions, how do you get there? This is your goal, not mine. My goal is to humiliate and anger religious nutbags at every turn. Legal abortion does that, which more than satisfies me.

So which one are you, pro choice or anti both ways? Your positions are extremely confusing.

I don't even think you know what you believe in at the moment.

No, I know exactly what I believe.

I believe that all you right wing nutbags who keep voting for Repukes to get abortion banned are voting against your own economic interests. And to be fair, I did this FOR YEARS. Good catholic upbringing, I got the whole Fetus Picture Propaganda tour.

But at the end of the day, guess what, they don't want to ban abortion, they want to keep you angry so you keep voting against your own interests.

So while that wonderful middle class that let my parents have five kids comfortably vanishes, you guys have all this misdirected anger. You actually are doing this to yourselves.

 

[gipper]

So sad...and a perfect example of the age of ignorance we are all suffering under...

We aren't going to run out of human fetuses. We are going to run out of those other things.

The problem in the world tody is, too many fetuses actually turn into people, and the world can't support them all.

WRONG! The problem is not too many humans. Leftists and eugenists have been promoting this lie, which you accept, for decades. They claimed it over 100 years ago when the total human population was less than 1 billion. Now we are at 7 billion. Why do you accept lies as truth?

Today the population in much of the world is not growing, but declining. Apparently you are not aware of this.

 

[Cowman]

So sad...and a perfect example of the age of ignorance we are all suffering under...

We aren't going to run out of human fetuses. We are going to run out of those other things.

The problem in the world tody is, too many fetuses actually turn into people, and the world can't support them all.

Many of those fetuses turn into shitty human beings who would rather make those other animals go extinct.

And yes basically human fetuses are not endangered.