Zone1 Abortion Debate: Come Clean and without fallacy

[PeterPilot]

Mr. Friscus

And you seem to ignore the Ninth Amendment here in the US.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

The way i see it is, that human is completely dependent on the mother. Therefore it is her business. Not the governments.

So if she decides to kill the fetus at 8 months, or kill the child right out of the womb (it’s totally dependent), because it’s “her business”… the government couldn’t intervene??

 

[TNHarley]

kill the child right out of the womb

That would be murder.

 

[Hafar1014]

Of course, this board is ripe with people who spew fallacies as a debate go-to, but I challenge anyone to stay on topic and discuss the issue without becoming hyperbolic, emotional, or political.

My stance is clear, on many fronts (and you can take on any of them:

1. Scientific: We know that once a sperm and egg unite, they create a unique human life with it's own DNA that is separate from the mother. So it has nothing directly to do with the body of the mother. The mother is a nourisher and supporter of the life inside her, and is performing a woman's superpower, something men cannot do.

2. Philosophic: We are trying to determine the value of a human life, when it begins, what a "person" is. The bottom line is that nobody can say for certain. We've seen horrible atrocities occur when human life is devalued by dictators. The creation of a human life is the ultimate value, and the beginning of the process of a unique being's journey towards it's full complete journey through birth, growing as a child, through teens, and into generally a complete adult by age 23-25.

3. Religious: God loves us, and the teachings are clear He does not approve of us deciding to kill his creations in this way.


I've yet to hear a convincing argument from pro-abortionists, as they
1. ignore the proponents I listed
2. attempt to turn it into some sort of battle of the sexes (despite the gigantic bloc of women who oppose abortion), only focusing on the "inconvenience" placed on the mother, and how it's unfair. If a pro-abortionist would like to add more
3. Dehumanize the fetus despite its' scientific realities and it's philosophical capital.

I invite anyone who can handle a low intensity and high content debate to reply. If we get angry pro-abortionists invading with fallacies, I'll simply point them out and move on.

Point 1 is 100% false. A fetus is connected to the mother in a symbiotic relationship. Bonded and attached. After birth for the first 6 months it lives part of the mothers mind as one person. The birth of the individual occurs 5-6 months after birth. This process is called inviduation.
Separation-Individuation stage: (5-24 months) In this final stage a significant transition occurs in two overlapping realms. In separation, the infant develops an understanding of boundaries of the self, and thus the mother is increasingly viewed as an individual.Dec 4, 2015
Until tis occurs and infant sees its reflection and thinks its another infant. There is no self concept.

Abortion is at times necessary solution. In cases of Tay Sacs and Anencephaly abortion is the moral choice. IN cases where the life of the mother is threatened abortion is also correct.

Its irrational to claim abortion is always correct or wrong

 

[ding]

That would be murder.

Technically it's murder either way.

 

[Foxfyre]

Of course, this board is ripe with people who spew fallacies as a debate go-to, but I challenge anyone to stay on topic and discuss the issue without becoming hyperbolic, emotional, or political.

My stance is clear, on many fronts (and you can take on any of them:

1. Scientific: We know that once a sperm and egg unite, they create a unique human life with it's own DNA that is separate from the mother. So it has nothing directly to do with the body of the mother. The mother is a nourisher and supporter of the life inside her, and is performing a woman's superpower, something men cannot do.

2. Philosophic: We are trying to determine the value of a human life, when it begins, what a "person" is. The bottom line is that nobody can say for certain. We've seen horrible atrocities occur when human life is devalued by dictators. The creation of a human life is the ultimate value, and the beginning of the process of a unique being's journey towards it's full complete journey through birth, growing as a child, through teens, and into generally a complete adult by age 23-25.

3. Religious: God loves us, and the teachings are clear He does not approve of us deciding to kill his creations in this way.


I've yet to hear a convincing argument from pro-abortionists, as they
1. ignore the proponents I listed
2. attempt to turn it into some sort of battle of the sexes (despite the gigantic bloc of women who oppose abortion), only focusing on the "inconvenience" placed on the mother, and how it's unfair. If a pro-abortionist would like to add more
3. Dehumanize the fetus despite its' scientific realities and it's philosophical capital.

I invite anyone who can handle a low intensity and high content debate to reply. If we get angry pro-abortionists invading with fallacies, I'll simply point them out and move on.

Having read the thread and ignoring the logical fallacies, diversions from the OP, red herrings and such, the following in my opinion is irrefutable with most mentioned in your OP:

1. Not a single human being exists who did not go through the whole process of conception, being a fertilized egg and all the various stages of human development. To say abortion is not killing an individual human being is simply irrational on the face of it.

A moral society recognizes this truth and does not try to dismiss it.

2. In very rare/unusual circumstances there are moral and justifiable reasons to end a pregnancy. These reasons will usually be based on recognized medical science.

An even more rare/unusual circumstance involved personal decisions as to whether rape or incest or imperfections in the developing baby qualify as a moral and justifiable reason to end the pregnancy.

Both religious and sociopolitical beliefs come into play here and there will be disagreement.

3. Whether any person has the right to take the life of another is simply not rational unless we do not value human life at all.

Every person should have the right to defend himself/herself and/or others against violence/intended violence even if that requires lethal force against the attacker. Likewise war does become necessary when one country does violence to another and will almost always involve lethal force.

4. Because there will be disagreement, SCOTUS doing away with Roe and leaving it to the will of the people in the various states was the right choice as it had always been except for the 49 years Roe was in effect.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

That would be murder.

I’m just using your definition.

And, I noticed a Freudian slip:

The way i see it is, that human is completely dependent on the mother. Therefore it is her business. Not the governments.

Yep, it’s a human life, and you think it’s okay for a mother to kill any being that depends on her? An infant? A disabled child?

 

[TNHarley]

I’m just using your definition.

And, I noticed a Freudian slip:

The way i see it is, that human is completely dependent on the mother. Therefore it is her business. Not the governments.

Yep, it’s a human life, and you think it’s okay for a mother to kill any being that depends on her? An infant? A disabled child?

No freudian slip.
Infant or disabled child would be murder.

 

[ding]

No freudian slip.
Infant or disabled child would be murder.

When a pregnant woman is murdered, the perpetrator can face charges for murdering the woman and for harming the fetus, often leading to two murder charges (one for the mother, one for the unborn child) under state fetal homicide laws or federal acts like the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, though specifics vary by state and whether the fetus was born alive or laws protect it. The outcome depends heavily on the state's laws, with many states recognizing the fetus as a separate victim, potentially leading to first-degree murder for both.

 

[TNHarley]

When a pregnant woman is murdered, the perpetrator can face charges for murdering the woman and for harming the fetus, often leading to two murder charges (one for the mother, one for the unborn child) under state fetal homicide laws or federal acts like the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, though specifics vary by state and whether the fetus was born alive or laws protect it. The outcome depends heavily on the state's laws, with many states recognizing the fetus as a separate victim, potentially leading to first-degree murder for both.

Yes, I am aware. Its called consent.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

No freudian slip.
Infant or disabled child would be murder.

But they are also totally dependent on the mother. That was your standard

 

[TNHarley]

But they are also totally dependent on the mother. That was your standard

Dependency in the womb vs dependency outside of the womb is apples and oranges.

 

[d0gbreath]

The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.

Most of which translate to English as 'The giver of breath." So, to me it is wrong to abort a breathing fetus.

 

[TNHarley]

The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.

Most of which translate to English as 'The giver of breath." So, to me it is wrong to abort a breathing fetus.

fetuses dont breath.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Dependency in the womb vs dependency outside of the womb is apples and oranges.

So 8.5 months you can kill the fetus?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

fetuses dont breath.

The diaphragm trains and breathes amniotic fluid.

 

[TNHarley]

The diaphragm trains and breathes amniotic fluid.

Fetuses do not breath, they receive oxygen from the ambilocal cord. They do not breath until they are born, and a complete individual.

 

[TNHarley]

So 8.5 months you can kill the fetus?

If the mother wishes. Although I certainly dont agree with it.

 

[ding]

Yes, I am aware. Its called consent.

So murder and not murder?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

If the mother wishes. Although I certainly dont agree with it.

Wow