Zone1 Abortion Debate: Come Clean and without fallacy

[Eman623]

Not at its simplest meaning it doesn't.

So you admit there is more than one meaning for "person".

The simplest meaning is not necessarily the correct one.

 

[Eman623]

How would using the definition of person make me feel better about my position?

You have it backwards. You have your position and you pick self-serving definitions of words, presumably to justify your logic. And help with that sleep time of course.

I'm not dehumanizing human life so that it's easier to kill them. If you said, abortion ends a human life that has never existed before and will never exist again and you don't care that it does, then we would have nothing further to discuss. Can you say that? Can you own it? Because that is literally what abortion does.

I will say this: Abortion kills a unique human life. It never existed before and never will again.

However, I do care about that, which is why I want to restrict it when personhood is attained.

 

[Hafar1014]

I've had enough life experiences to know not to argue against science like you are doing.

When did you get your degree in human development. That was part of my graduate degree in psychology. You know nothing about it. You also cant discuss morals without context. Infant trauma is also my area of expertice so I have to know every aspect of human development from the womb to adulthood. Your thinking is categorical 100% right or wrong. Thats how an uneducated person thinks.

 

[ding]

So you admit there is more than one meaning for "person".

The simplest meaning is not necessarily the correct one.

Most words have more than one definition. The correct one depends upon context. In this case you want to pretend you aren't killing a specific human being (i.e. person) by aborting it. Science says you are. Each PERSON that has ever lived or will ever live has unique DNA that identifies them as a specific person.

 

[ding]

You have it backwards. You have your position and you pick self-serving definitions of words, presumably to justify your logic. And help with that sleep time of course.

How so? Walk me through it.

 

[Hafar1014]

Most words have more than one definition. The correct one depends upon context. In this case you want to pretend you aren't killing a specific human being (i.e. person) by aborting it. Science says you are. Each PERSON that has ever lived or will ever live has unique DNA that identifies them as a specific person.

No my point is sometimes its the right thing to do and sometimes the wrong thing to do. Its never 100% wrong or right.

 

[ding]

I will say this: Abortion kills a unique human life. It never existed before and never will again.

However, I do care about that, which is why I want to restrict it when personhood is attained.

You can't do it. You can't own it. You know it's wrong and you can't admit to supporting something that is wrong.

 

[Eman623]

You can't do it. You can't own it. You know it's wrong and you can't admit to supporting something that is wrong.

I'm not going to own the strawman you built and now want to ascribe to me. You own that.

 

[Hafar1014]

Wrong.

A cell scraped off the inside of one of my cheeks will have my DNA.

A zygote produced by the hounded of one of my spermatozoa with a woman’s ovum has its own unique and entirely human genetic code.

Thus, a zygote inside its maternal womb will have a genetic code unlike any of its mother’s cells.

My error I meant ovum

 

[ding]

When did you get your degree in human development. That was part of my graduate degree in psychology. You know nothing about it. You also cant discuss morals without context. Infant trauma is also my area of expertice so I have to know every aspect of human development from the womb to adulthood. Your thinking is categorical 100% right or wrong. Thats how an uneducated person thinks.

I don't need a degree to understand what the science says.

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”

Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.

“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.”

F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.”

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

“The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.”

Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500

“The term conception refers to the union of the male and female pronuclear elements of procreation from which a new living being develops. It is synonymous with the terms fecundation, impregnation, and fertilization … The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life.”

J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.

“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”

Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.

“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization… is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.”

Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.”

Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

“The first cell of a new and unique human life begins existence at the moment of conception (fertilization) when one living sperm from the father joins with one living ovum from the mother. It is in this manner that human life passes from one generation to another. Given the appropriate environment and genetic composition, the single cell subsequently gives rise to trillions of specialized and integrated cells that compose the structures and functions of each individual human body. Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.”
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James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)

“The formation, maturation and meeting of a male and female sex cell are all preliminary to their actual union into a combined cell, or zygote, which definitely marks the beginning of a new individual. The penetration of the ovum by the spermatozoon, and the coming together and pooling of their respective nuclei, constitutes the process of fertilization.”

Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55

“The zygote therefore contains a new arrangement of genes on the chromosomes never before duplicated in any other individual. The offspring destined to develop from the fertilized ovum will have a genetic constitution different from anyone else in the world.”

DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584

“The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual.”

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419

“Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex …structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection.”

Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99

“A zygote (a single fertilized egg cell) represents the onset of pregnancy and the genesis of new life.”

Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53

“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3

“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun…. The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life.”
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Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, [at conception] the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.”

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”

Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.”

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

“In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. … Fertilization takes place in the oviduct … resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point… This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.”
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Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

“Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed… Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments… The zygote … is a unicellular embryo..”

From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

“[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
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The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:

 

[Eman623]

How so? Walk me through it.

I just did.

 

[Hafar1014]

I don't need a degree to understand what the science says.


Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.


Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974.


F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi


Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30


The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1


Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500


J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Freidman. Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Publishers. 1974 Pages 17 and 23.


Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.


Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8.


Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co


James Bopp, ed., Human Life and Health Care Ethics, vol. 2 (Frederick, MD: University Publications of America, 1985)


Leslie Brainerd Arey, “Developmental Anatomy” seventh edition space (Philadelphia: Saunders, 1974), 55


DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584


Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419


Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99


Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53


Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3


Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943


Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974


Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3


Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.


Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.


From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O’Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.


The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18:

Abortion is still legal

 

[ding]

No my point is sometimes its the right thing to do and sometimes the wrong thing to do. Its never 100% wrong or right.

Your point doesn't change the science or what abortion is intended to do which is to end a human life. I'm not here to discuss the morality of abortion.

 

[Eman623]

Most words have more than one definition. The correct one depends upon context. In this case you want to pretend you aren't killing a specific human being (i.e. person) by aborting it.

Human being is a scientific term. It has a meaning. Person has shades of meaning.

Science says you are. Each PERSON that has ever lived or will ever live has unique DNA that identifies them as a specific person.

Specific human being. Personhood does not come merely from DNA. It is acquired.

 

[ding]

Abortion is still legal

Great. Fantastic. And abortion still ends the life of a human being that has never existed before and will never exist again.

 

[ding]

Human being is a scientific term. It has a meaning. Person has shades of meaning.


Specific human being. Personhood does not come merely from DNA. It is acquired.

You need shades of grey to not see yourself as supporting killing people but that is literally what abortion does.

It's OK to you because you don't see them as people. You should because that's what they are.

 

[Hafar1014]

Great. Fantastic. And abortion still ends the life of a human being that has never existed before and will never exist again.

And sometimes its the right thing to do. Thats why i will always be legal
So tell me if pregnant mother has terminal cancer and the chemo that can cure her will kill the fetus what would you do? This is an actual case

 

[ding]

And sometimes its the right thing to do. Thats why i will always be legal
So tell me if pregnant mother has terminal cancer and the chemo that can cure her will kill the fetus what would you do? This is an actual case

See post # 713

 

[Eman623]

You need shades of grey to not see yourself as supporting killing people but that is literally what abortion does.

When the other person stops discussing the topic and starts making me the topic, that's when I know I've won.

It's OK to you because you don't see them as people. You should because that's what they are.

Bored now. I win.

Pro tip: Next time, try telling me what you think more and what I think less.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I am not. If you think advocating democracy is mob rule, then you have a bigger problem I cannot help you with.

Pure Democracy IS mob rule. That's why it's immoral. That's why we don't live in a pure democracy, we live in constitutional republic.

You sound like you are saying democracy is anti-Americans and immoral.

It is.

If 75% of Americans wake up one day and think the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are BS... and they then vote in politicians who encourage this, they throw out the Constitution and make up "rights" that contradict the Bill of Rights, you'd have to support that. So, if that included saying it's okay to kill someone who you don't like.. if 75% of Americans said "we think it should be legal to kill people we don't like".. your logic supports it. Mine does not.

That's why yours is immoral.