Zone1 Abortion Debate: Come Clean and without fallacy

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I'll come clean.

I dont care what anyone thinks about abortion. Don't like abortion? Dont get an abortion.

But I have yet to see a convincing argument for why anyone's anti-choice belief should be enforced on everyone else at the end of a gun.

 

[Eman623]

That's not true. I believe it is wrong to kill, yet I eat animal flesh. I don't justify it as good and moral because it's not. I freely admit I do it for selfish reasons. It's called free will. I have a choice. What I don't have a choice in is denying reality. I don't need to pretend I'm being good when I'm not. That would be the worst thing I could do.

I do not believe you. If you really thought that eating animals was immoral enough, then you would go vegan.

 

[Eman623]

I couldn't care less. My obligation to truth is satisfied when I state the truth. What others do is up to them. But no, I'm all about discovering truth, so I will absolutely change my mind when someone else helps me discover it.

No one ever had their mind changed for them. And no one cares what your truth is.

I don't believe I am projecting my own ideas of right and wrong on everyone else. If it were up to me abortion would be a class "C" misdemeanor with no jail time and only a small fine... like speeding ticket.

So killing a unique human being should be a misdemeanor? Interesting.

What I am doing is exposing the incongruity of people who dehumanize human life so that it's easier to end those lives. It's no different than what certain classes of people have done to certain other classes of people. It's real easy to treat people poorly when you see them as less than people.

I don't see a newly fertilized egg as a person. That is not dehumanizing it. At best it is "depersoning" it, although I never personized it in the first place.

If it helps, that egg will eventually acquire personhood. And if it is aborted after that occurs, then that is immoral and should be against the law.

So I don't really care if I change your mind or the mind of anyone else that defends abortion as good or moral. Just like I don't care if I change anyone's mind that eating animal flesh isn't good or moral. Just don't expect me to ignore your incongruity that you have to justify abortion because it's ok to kill them because they aren't really a person yet.

If I were you, I'd worry about your own incongruity where taking a pre-born human life should be a misdemeanor.

 

[BackAgain]

I'll come clean.

I dont care what anyone thinks about abortion. Don't like abortion? Dont get an abortion.

But I have yet to see a convincing argument for why anyone's anti-choice belief should be enforced on everyone else at the end of a gun.

You don’t care but you still find it necessary to discuss it.

Check.

You are incapable of being convinced by any argument because you happen to be totally close-minded.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You don’t care but you still find it necessary to discuss it.

Clearly I did not discuss anyone's opinion on abortion. Not even mine.

Start over? Good luck.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I'll come clean.

I dont care what anyone thinks about abortion. Don't like abortion? Dont get an abortion.

But I have yet to see a convincing argument for why anyone's anti-choice belief should be enforced on everyone else at the end of a gun.

For the same reason the way you can’t kill others by threat of the end of a gun.

I’m proudly “anti-choice” as far as a choice to kill innocent human life. Your hyperbole doesn’t work. You can put as much lipstick as you want on that pig

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

For the same reason the way you can’t kill others by threat of the end of a gun.

In your little act, because you lie out loud and say abortion is murder to try to lend gravitas to your argument that it otherwise does not have. Even though you don't actually believe it.

Problem is, it's not a convincing argument. Go check.

Go look at the obituaries. Find an obituary and funeral for a 10 week miscarriage.

See you in never. Its not convincing to almost anyone who doesnt believe in the concept of souls.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You are not able to refute the point that "human life" even "unique human life" is not the determinative regarding the propriety of State intrusion into a womb.

• Majorities of both women (64%) and men (61%) express support for legal abortion.

A state should not violate a woman's freedom before the gestational viability of a fetus is achieved.

You're all over the place.

First, you claim the state cannot protect anything that is in the womb.
Then, you add that they CAN, as long as it's viable.
Which is it?

And I don't care what majorities say when it comes to rights. That's what communists and progressives do. But you're tied to the fact that if 90% of people are okay with rape in your society, you'd have to support it. I'm not tied to that immorality.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

In your little act, because you lie out loud and say abortion is murder

Lie? It's an opinion at the moment.

to try to lend gravitas to your argument that it otherwise does not have. Even though you don't actually believe it.

Problem is, it's not a convincing argument. Go check.

Go look at the obituaries. Find an obituary and funeral for a 10 week miscarriage.

See you in never. Its not convincing to almost anyone who doesnt believe in the childish concept of souls.

1. Catholics often have grave sites for miscarriages.
2. Miscarriages are seen as a tragedy, so it only furthers my point, not yours. If it furthered your point, you'd see people not worry or care at all that they had a miscarriage.

So, thank you for supporting my side of the discussion

 

[BackAgain]

Clearly I did not discuss anyone's opinion on abortion. Not even mine.

Start over? Good luck.

So you’re posting in a different thread but they end up here?

Yes. You should start over.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I'll take all people deciding (aka democracy) over you telling everyone what is moral any day of the week.

You're caught up on what I say. This isn't about what I think.. are you projecting a tyrannical progressive desire here? I'm saying follow the rules of the Constitution. They aren't my rules.

Yet here you are, making multiple posts about me, like you're some stoner in the back of a classroom trying to stick your tongue out at authority.

But your prescription of pure democracy is completely immoral. You'd have to own that if 75% of your population wanted murder, rape, and theft to be legal, you'd have to allow it and support it. My society wouldn't. We have an ethical framework. You don't. We are morally superior to you.

 

[Chuz Life]

More like an accidental miscarriage. Let's try that again.

Understanding Acquired Personhood

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Reconciling Definitions of Personhood

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[Chuz Life]

And the obligations?

Open ended question with no context.

No idea what you expect for consideration or an answer.

 

[Chuz Life]

Abortion is legal and morral under certain circumstances. It doesnt matter when it begins. Killing is legal and moral under certain circumstances it doesnt matter when it begins.

You've skipped the question.

Does that abortion entail the killing of a child, person, human being?

Yes or no.

Why not own your own damn position?

 

[Chuz Life]

Pro-choice is neither pro-abortion nor anti-abortion.

If you are a proponent for something, you are by definition "pro" whatever that thing is.

If you are a proponent of abortion on demand, you are, by definition, pro abortion on demand.

 

[Chuz Life]

So you admit there is more than one meaning for "person".

The simplest meaning is not necessarily the correct one.

Please explain why the simplest (most inclusive) meaning for what a "person" is would not be the "correct one."

Be detailed and specific.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Why not own your own damn position?

I think there's a lot of people who don't want to say the full scope of what they believe on the pro-abortion side. They say simple bumper-sticker platitudes like "my body my choice", unaware that baked into that is the fact that because it's their body, they can kill an 8 month fetus if they want. And that's going to go over like a fart in church to the mass public.

So, they stay vague and dance with their language. Progressivism is quite radical in issues like abortion, racial issues, transgenderism. They often try to stay minimal/moderate in their language at first, but it's easy to get them to admit to radical things once you cross examine them.

 

[schmidlap]

I think there's a lot of people who don't want to say the full scope of what they believe on the pro-abortion side. They say simple bumper-sticker platitudes like "my body my choice", unaware that baked into that is the fact that because it's their body, they can kill an 8 month fetus if they want. And that's going to go over like a fart in church to the mass public.

So, they stay vague and dance with their language. Progressivism is quite radical in issues like abortion, racial issues, transgenderism. They often try to stay minimal/moderate in their language at first, but it's easy to get them to admit to radical things once you cross examine them.

If you prefer that the state deny a female her right to control her own body, and dictate to her (as is the case in Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Honduras) don't expect Americans to submit to such immoral authoritarianism. regardless of whether you like it.

 

[schmidlap]

If you are a proponent for something, you are by definition "pro" whatever that thing is.

If you are a proponent of abortion on demand, you are, by definition, pro abortion on demand.

Concerning pregnancy, I am a proponent of personal choice before gestational viability is achieved.

I am opposed to the State dictating one way or the other.

 

[JoeB131]

At conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence. One that has never existed before and will never exist again.

yet 70% of Zygotes never attach to the uterine wall. Of the ones that do, 40% are miscarried or aborted.