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Abortion and the 14th Amendment - Just Who are Persons?

protectionist

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How does a decision that can only be made by 15% of the population have to be controlled by other than those concerned?
Once again, the fetus is overlooked as a "concerned" party in the scenario. Speaking to the millions of adults whose mothers contemplated abortion 20 or 30 years ago, and decided against it, there was never anything that they had more concern about.
 

schmidlap

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Once again, the misguided liberal focuses entirely on "women" and their rights (he thinks) to kill people, who are well more than a microscopic, mindless amalgam of cells.
Extremists who demand that authoritarian statist bureaucrats seize control of wombs at the moment of conception fantasize that microscopic, mindless amalgams of cells are persons.
Notice also that among the poster's list of "advisers" (medical and spiritual advisers and loved ones), there is no mention of referring to the FETUS person, who is obliterated entirely from the scenario.
Why do you need to pretend that medical and spiritual advisers are indifferent to the fetus? A fetus develops into a person during gestation. Christian theologians like Aquinas and Augustine identified that point as "the quickening." After that, society has a moral responsibility for it.

Most Americans, just like the people of most advanced nations, recognize that a female has proprietary control of her womb, and do not tolerate radical politicians dictating to her.

Majorities Back Maintaining Roe v. Wade, Oppose States’ Abortion Clinic Restrictions
Screen Shot 2022-08-07 at 7.55.45 PM.png
 

protectionist

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Extremists who demand that authoritarian statist bureaucrats seize control of wombs at the moment of conception fantasize that microscopic, mindless amalgams of cells are persons.

Why do you need to pretend that medical and spiritual advisers are indifferent to the fetus? A fetus develops into a person during gestation. Christian theologians like Aquinas and Augustine identified that point as "the quickening." After that, society has a moral responsibility for it.

Most Americans, just like the people of most advanced nations, recognize that a female has proprietary control of her womb, and do not tolerate radical politicians dictating to her.

1. I'm not talking about "the moment of conception".. Here in Florida abortion is allowed up until 12 weeks, and there are a few exceptions to this rule, including cases of rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is in danger. But leave it up to liberals to spin the issue into extremes that nobody here is talking about. Ho hum.

2. And no abortion should NOT be left to "the woman and her doctor".. They are only 2 players in the scenario. The 3rd player (and most important) is the fetus, represented by anti-abortion activists.

3. Hardly matters what a laughable Democrat poll (ABC/Wapo), answered only by Democrats says.

Strike 1.....Strike 2.....Strike 3.
 

protectionist

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One takes one's chance when one crosses the road. That does not mean one consents to being run down.
But women who have sex, DO consent to getting pregnant.
 

protectionist

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.Most Americans, just like the people of most advanced nations, recognize that a female has proprietary control of her womb, and do not tolerate radical politicians dictating to her.


FALSE! throughout Europe abortion is banned with only a few countries allowing it beyond 12 weeks - same as the Florida law.
1659939136519.png

Total ban or prohibited
Only available in cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother
Legal to 10 weeks
Legal to 11 weeks
Legal to 12 weeks
Legal to 13 weeks (3 months)
Legal to 14 weeks
Legal to 18 weeks
Legal to 20 weeks
Legal to 24 weeks (5½ months)
Legal to 12–28 weeks
12 weeks, can be performed later if authorised
10 weeks, can be performed later if authorised
12 weeks, elective procedure
Must be approved by committee
 

Rigby5

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Surprisingly, discussions about abortion and the 14th Amendment may have a common thread: Just who are "persons"for the purpose of applying their provisions? According to current (mis)interpretation of the 14th Amendment, U.S. Congressional districts are apportioned according to the number of persons, rather than citizens, living in each district. (This means that the actual numbers of legal voters can vary widely between districts, thereby creating additional opportunities for gerrymandering.)

Similarly, discussions about abortion often involve the issue of when a fetus becomes a "person" with legal rights. This distinction seems analogous to that between illegal aliens and citizens in the U.S. Although these aliens and fetuses are "undocumented," there is no question of their existence and residence in this country. The only thing standing between them and full legal recognition is the necessary paperwork; either a "green card" or a U.S. birth certificate.

However, this analogy fails when it comes to government benefits. While illegal aliens are entitled to food, shelter and medical care, many fetuses are deprived of the same. Why is that? Aren't they both persons?

Wrong.
Has nothing to do with whether a fetus is a person or has rights or not.
The point is that if you need a kidney to survive, and the person who has the kidney you need does not want to give it to you, then you die.
The right to life does NOT include being able to infringe upon the rights or desires of anyone else.
So if a fetus were a person and had full rights, the fetus would still have no right to be a parasite on a woman's body, if she does not want it.
 

protectionist

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Why do you need to pretend that medical and spiritual advisers are indifferent to the fetus? A fetus develops into a person during gestation. Christian theologians like Aquinas and Augustine identified that point as "the quickening." After that, society has a moral responsibility for it.


Not only are they indifferent to the fetus, and like you, never even mention it, but there are legislative attempts to legalize infanticide, and kill already born babies up to 28 days old.


 

protectionist

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Wrong.
Has nothing to do with whether a fetus is a person or has rights or not.
The point is that if you need a kidney to survive, and the person who has the kidney you need does not want to give it to you, then you die.
The right to life does NOT include being able to infringe upon the rights or desires of anyone else.
So if a fetus were a person and had full rights, the fetus would still have no right to be a parasite on a woman's body, if she does not want it.
Wrong, the fetus has every right to gestate fully and be born. The woman has no right to commit murder by having an abortion.
 

Rigby5

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1. I'm not talking about "the moment of conception".. Here in Florida abortion is allowed up until 12 weeks, and there are a few exceptions to this rule, including cases of rape, incest, or when the mother’s life is in danger. But leave it up to liberals to spin the issue into extremes that nobody here is talking about. Ho hum.

2. And no abortion should NOT be left to "the woman and her doctor".. They are only 2 players in the scenario. The 3rd player (and most important) is the fetus, represented by anti-abortion activists.

3. Hardly matters what a laughable Democrat poll (ABC/Wapo), answered only by Democrats says.

Strike 1.....Strike 2.....Strike 3.

Fetuses do not care.
Non one has the authority to speak for them and misrepresent what they would prefer.
Nor would it matter, since no human has a right to demand ANYTHING from any other human at all.
And a fetus has even less right than that.
 

Rigby5

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Total ban or prohibited
Only available in cases of rape, incest or the health of the mother
Legal to 10 weeks
Legal to 11 weeks
Legal to 12 weeks
Legal to 13 weeks (3 months)
Legal to 14 weeks
Legal to 18 weeks
Legal to 20 weeks
Legal to 24 weeks (5½ months)
Legal to 12–28 weeks
12 weeks, can be performed later if authorised
10 weeks, can be performed later if authorised
12 weeks, elective procedure
Must be approved by committee

Europe is the worst place to look, as it is the remnant of illegal religious theocracies that several times tried to commit genocide against Jews, and thrived on slavery.
 

Rigby5

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Not only are they indifferent to the fetus, and like you, never even mention it, but there are legislative attempts to legalize infanticide, and kill already born babies up to 28 days old.



We routinely kill anyone who is nonviable, like when Teri Schiavo was brain dead.
Nothing wrong with that.
Age is irrelevant except that before birth only the mother gets to decide, and after birth others could also be involved.
 

protectionist

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Fetuses do not care.
Non one has the authority to speak for them and misrepresent what they would prefer.
Nor would it matter, since no human has a right to demand ANYTHING from any other human at all.
And a fetus has even less right than that.
1. FALSE! That fetuses care is proven by the fact that unanimously, adults whose mothers contemplated abortion 20 or 30 years ago, and decided against it, say they are opposed to them having been aborted. Among 1,200of them polled, NONE said it would be OK for them to have been aborted.

2. EVERYONE has the authority to speak for the fetusues, and the US Supreme Court has done just that.

3. And every human has the right to demand that other humans do not kill them.

Strike 1.......Strike 2.......Strike 3.
 

Rigby5

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Not only are they indifferent to the fetus, and like you, never even mention it, but there are legislative attempts to legalize infanticide, and kill already born babies up to 28 days old.



We murder innocent adults all the time, like the half million innocent Iraqis we murdered when we lied about WMD.
 

Rigby5

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Wrong, the fetus has every right to gestate fully and be born. The woman has no right to commit murder by having an abortion.

Wrong.
No fetus or anything or anyone has the right to demand anything from a mother.
 

protectionist

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Europe is the worst place to look, as it is the remnant of illegal religious theocracies that several times tried to commit genocide against Jews, and thrived on slavery.
Only small parts of Europe did that, and only during brief periods of time. Actually, it was Muslims in Islamic countries that perpetuated slavery, and that was mostly in past centuries. We are talking about the 21st century.

Strike 4.
 

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