A question to all Christians

[amrchaos]

Good question.

I'm surprised nobody's said, "Hate the sin, love the sinner" yet.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

THAT'S PLAGIARISM!





*I'm telling P.I.

Quote Karl Marx and say it is your original thought!!

I love it when P.I. go nuts!! It is like 4th of July fireworks with REAL military grade rockets!!

 

[amrchaos]

We don't get thunderstorms in Perth, we have been forsaken by Thor.

When I lived in Arkansas we got some God-like-terrible storms.

I used to sit naked under our giant oak tree drinking and thanking the universe for it's beauty and caprice.

The last time I ever spoke to my mother, it was under that oak tree.

I believe there is a God, but I do not believe that force gives a flying **** how we **** as long as we love the person we are doing it with.

Lt see here

Thunderstorms, naked, giant oak tree, mother, God and sex.

Tell me--are you Greek?

 

[CMike]

I want to stress that my goal is not to put down christianity. Obviously, it's a different religion.

My beef is what is done to the Torah in order to validate chrisitan believes. The Torah is very sacred to jews.

You would probably feel the same way if some other religion twisted around what jesus said to create a totally other religion.

Well as absurd as it is; this is actually the case made by the Pharisees...

It's the same obtuse attitude and rejection of common sense that kept Jews in denial in Germany for a decade prior to being rounded up and slaughtered; and it's the same counter-productive, faux-piety which forces Liberal Israelis to chronically expect Palestinians might actually honor their agreement...

Christ's advocated for common sense; sound, sustainable natural principles; which by it's very essence was a threat to the Jewish power structure... and that community worked pretty much the way this cyber-community works...

You're in violation of "the Law" when those in Power SAY you're in violation of the law...

Two things here... such laws are invalid... as they serve the interests of those in power; and secondly as a result... such law can not serve justice.

So it's fair to say that Christ did violate the 'law'... and it's fair to say that he did not. The Law of the Jewish Elite was irrelevant to God and his purpose; and it's validity was in keeping with the distinction beteen the LAW of a web-forum and the commandments of that power structure and God's law or even the standing legal code of whatever culture ya happen to be in at the moment.

If that analogy doesn't work... then try any syndicate... you're living in a neighborhood; the local gang controls the streets... you begin to walk around claiming to be the new gang leader... egregeously violating the law of the local gang. So to keep things 'legal like' they turn ya in to the local cops... who are just as crooked as the gang; and they send ya down the river.

Did ya break the law? Sure... was the law ya supposedly broke a just law? Nope... thus it wasn't a valid law.

You are nuts.

It's really arrogant how some christians think they know jewish law better than jews who have been studying it for about 2,000 years.

Jewish law is based on the Torah. What I quoted you was directly from the Torah. That is the law G-D gave to the jews.

Jesus claimed to be a divine being. He claimed that jews can only get to G-D through him.

That is a direct contradiction to at least 30 passages where G-D said only to rely on him.

Worshipping jesus, according to the Torah, is basically the same thing as worshipping a golden calf.

It's idol worship. A violation of the ten commandments and the 7 laws given to Noach.

You don't make as much sense as you think on this one. Jesus violated one of the constant messages He spread in the first place -You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him? Any clue how many times Jesus said this?.

If that is the case he should have taken his own advice.

And, what you said seems contradictory.

Most of the christian posters here seem to think that jesus is god.

However, it doesn't work.

If he was G-D, he wouldn't pray to G-D, he wouldn't have said you can only get to G-D throuh him.

If he was the "son" of god or some other divine being then he clearly violating the numerous times the actual G-D who said trust no one but him.

If he was just the messiah, he didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies other than being from Bethlehem and riding a donkey.

There are more than 400 prophesies about the Jewish Messiah in the Old Testament -and you undoubtedly know that for the first 400 years Christians were nearly all Jews.

When the christians worshipped jesus, they were not longer jews. You can only worship one G-D in judaism.

You have to chose.

Until the majority of followers were not originally Jews but converted gentiles which did not happen until centuries later, Christianity was considered to be a Jewish sect and not a separate religion.

They can not have anything to do with jesus and be considered jewish.

They picked their god, the jews stayed with theirs.

It is also true that some Talmudic scholars have sought to reinterpret what is meant by certain verses in order to justify how Jesus did NOT fulfill those after all -and when those reinterpretations took place is known. Don't get me wrong -I expect a Jew to remain a Jew and NOT accept what I say here. Just like it would be pretty silly if you expect any Christian to suddenly change their mind because of anything you may say here.

The messianic prophesies are extremely clear. It's not that hard to interpret.


Michah 4
3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.(world peace)

Ezekiel 37

21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. כא. (all the jews will be brought to Israel)

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. כב. (the messiah will be one recognized king)

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. כג. (all non jews will worhship one G-D)

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. כד.(a descendent of David)

25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. כה.(all the jews will stay in Israel forever)

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. כו. (the temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever)

27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. כז.

28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever." (The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever)

How many of these did jesus fulfill? Zero. In fact the opposite happened. Instead of the temple being rebuilt as prophesized, it was destroyed.

And the second coming rationalization is purely a christian invention. No where in the Torah or prophesies does it say that.

I think you are wrong just as surely as you think I am wrong -but I am a gentile and not one of God's chosen people and your religion carries no message of redemption for the likes of me. There is no proselytizing in Judaism and conversion is discouraged so the religion itself offers me as a gentile -nothing. Totally unlike what Jesus tells me and indeed has proven to me to be true about where and how to find my salvation. Where as a gentile do I find that in Judaism? Jesus said that salvation is possible for ALL who ASK for it and that my faith, not an accident of birth -can and will assure my salvation.

Non jews are supposed to keep the 7 laws given to Noach to get to the world to come. They are


1) to establish courts of justice;

2) not to commit blasphemy;

3) not to commit idolatry;

4) not to commit incest and adultery;

5) not to commit bloodshed;

6) not to commit robbery; and

7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal.

The Jews expect a Messiah -yet their rejection of Him is also prophesied. Can't have it both ways on this one trying to explain why Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah at the same time what you have written indicates the justifications used to reject the Messiah will always be used to reject the Messiah no matter what -all while that rejection is prophesied anyway.

Obviously the jews rejected the messiah. He didn't fulfill any of the messianic prophesies. He sold himself as a divine being, a clear challenge to the one and only G-D.

A jew who didn't reject him, would have committed one of the most grave sins to G-D.

As I said, there are more than 400 Messianic prophesies in the Old Testament most of which are out human control -yet all fulfilled by Jesus. Even as I am also aware of the vigorous efforts by Jewish scholars to insist certain of these must be interpreted differently even from the way they used to be as a means of justifying for Jews why they can't possibly refer to Jesus. But just as YOU would accept that -I as a Christian totally reject that. Even if we throw out every prophesy scholars insist must be interpreted in a way that rules out Jesus -that leaves more than 370 prophesies that were made 400-1000 years before His birth that were fulfilled by Jesus. The entire list of these prophesies as well as the specific verses regarding when Jesus fulfilled them is available all over the place and I'm not going to repeat each and every one of them now. But among these prophesies are that He would be beaten, mocked and spat upon, hated without justification, that He would perform miraculous healings, that His first spiritual work would occur in Galilee. That men would gamble for his clothing, He would be given vinegar and gall to drink, that He would be crucified with criminals but his bones not broken (the crucified typically had their legs broken to speed up death), that He would be born of a virgin, that He would be betrayed by a friend, sold out for 30 pieces of silver, that those 30 pieces of silver would then be used to buy a potter's field, that his hands and feet would be pierced and on and on. And that He would bring a message of redemption for gentiles. Until Jesus there was no redemption believed to be possible for gentiles.

That's all christian creations and has nothing at all to do with the Torah.

While Jews give their rationale for rejecting the only person to ever fulfill all Messianic prophecies, the idea that someone could fulfill them all and NOT be the Messiah is what Christians reject. The whole point of why these prophesies were even made was so that the Messiah would be recognized and just not knowing it was He could not be used as an excuse for His rejection -even as this rejection was also prophesied. You were taught the reasons to believe that Jews weren't wrong about that rejection and Christianity teaches that rejection is part and parcel of God's will until the time He decides to remove the scales from their eyes -upon which they will weep for the One who was pierced and rejected by them. So there really is no point in trying to argue this one with each other at all since the position of each side will only harden and confirm what they already believe in the first place..

A jew can not be a jew and worship jesus.

Christinaity by it's very definition is centered around jesus.

Jews may only trust and put their faith in the one G-D. That's what makes a jew a jew.

As a Christian I believe the path for Jews is different from the one for non-Jews. I know that the Jews will always be God's chosen people and that I will never be counted among that number since I was not born a Jew. My path to come to know, follow and cleave to God and keep His law must by its very definition -be a totally different one then.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

As I said in the beginning my beef is the perversion of the Torah to validate christian believes. Aside from that, I have no issue with christianity.

 

[CMike]

awesome stories? the story place of the web?

Yeah...it's a christian site.

and? is that of some significance? should i take it more seriously because it's christian? does it counter that other joke of a link you posted? when will you post the mormon take?

The difference between jews and other people that the romans conquered, is that the jews didn't assimilate. They stubbornly clinged to their religion and to their G-D.

The Romans were not happy about this, and the romans were vicious occupiers of the jews.

 

[AllieBaba]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

 

[CMike]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're asking a question to a group of people that you believe have certain prejudices. I'm asking a question to you specifically about why you believe they all have those prejudices.

Indeed, your assumptions about the views and beliefs of a group of people could equally be called a prejudice.

This was not addressed to me, but the question is provocative.

In matters of religion as well as politics or socioeconomic values, we all hold to that which makes the most sense to us - or - we hold to that which we WANT to believe. Thus, every person who comes to believe something will have a particular bias re what s/he believes and what s/he considers unbelievable. The prejudice comes in when certain assumptions are made about those who don't share our beliefs.

When you hear some of the ridiculous blanket assumptions about Christians or Jews or atheists or Democrats or Republicans or whomever is being judged, such assumptions are arise out of pure prejudice. Sometimes that prejudice can be pretty negative, even hateful.

In my opinion some prejudice is learned behavior, some arises out of arrogance or a conclusion that a person is a morally superior or better or smarter person because he holds a certain bias. Some arises out of fear. Fear that the other person will harm us. Or fear of being wrong.

The dichotomies that develop in this kind of thing are fascinating to watch. I suspect Jesus might have had at least some of this in mind in his admonition to judge not lest we be judged.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Actually jesus broke the laws of G-D. He violated perhaps the most serious law that G-D gave.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Deuteronomy - Torah - Bible
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. ה. אַחֲרֵי יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ וְאֶת מִצְוֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן:

6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. ו. וְהַנָּבִיא הַהוּא אוֹ חֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם הַהוּא יוּמָת כִּי דִבֶּר סָרָה עַל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם הַמּוֹצִיא אֶתְכֶם מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם וְהַפֹּדְךָ מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים לְהַדִּיחֲךָ מִן הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר צִוְּךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לָלֶכֶת בָּהּ וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִקִּרְבֶּךָ:

7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known." ז. כִּי יְסִיתְךָ אָחִיךָ בֶן אִמֶּךָ אוֹ בִנְךָ אוֹ בִתְּךָ אוֹ אֵשֶׁת חֵיקֶךָ אוֹ רֵעֲךָ אֲשֶׁר כְּנַפְשְׁךָ בַּסֵּתֶר לֵאמֹר נֵלְכָה וְנַעַבְדָה אֱ־לֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַאֲבֹתֶיךָ:

8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; ח. מֵאֱלֹהֵי הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֹתֵיכֶם הַקְּרֹבִים אֵלֶיךָ אוֹ הָרְחֹקִים מִמֶּךָּ מִקְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעַד קְצֵה הָאָרֶץ:

9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him. ט. לֹא תֹאבֶה לוֹ וְלֹא תִשְׁמַע אֵלָיו וְלֹא תָחוֹס עֵינְךָ עָלָיו וְלֹא תַחְמֹל וְלֹא תְכַסֶּה עָלָיו:

10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. י. כִּי הָרֹג תַּהַרְגֶנּוּ יָדְךָ תִּהְיֶה בּוֹ בָרִאשׁוֹנָה לַהֲמִיתוֹ וְיַד כָּל הָעָם בָּאַחֲרֹנָה:

11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. יא. וּסְקַלְתּוֹ בָאֲבָנִים וָמֵת כִּי בִקֵּשׁ לְהַדִּיחֲךָ מֵעַל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ הַמּוֹצִיאֲךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים:

12. And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst.

Well as absurd as it is; this is actually the case made by the Pharisees...

It's the same obtuse attitude and rejection of common sense that kept Jews in denial in Germany for a decade prior to being rounded up and slaughtered; and it's the same counter-productive, faux-piety which forces Liberal Israelis to chronically expect Palestinians might actually honor their agreement...

Christ's advocated for common sense; sound, sustainable natural principles; which by it's very essence was a threat to the Jewish power structure... and that community worked pretty much the way this cyber-community works...

You're in violation of "the Law" when those in Power SAY you're in violation of the law...

Two things here... such laws are invalid... as they serve the interests of those in power; and secondly as a result... such law can not serve justice.

So it's fair to say that Christ did violate the 'law'... and it's fair to say that he did not. The Law of the Jewish Elite was irrelevant to God and his purpose; and it's validity was in keeping with the distinction beteen the LAW of a web-forum and the commandments of that power structure and God's law or even the standing legal code of whatever culture ya happen to be in at the moment.

If that analogy doesn't work... then try any syndicate... you're living in a neighborhood; the local gang controls the streets... you begin to walk around claiming to be the new gang leader... egregeously violating the law of the local gang. So to keep things 'legal like' they turn ya in to the local cops... who are just as crooked as the gang; and they send ya down the river.

Did ya break the law? Sure... was the law ya supposedly broke a just law? Nope... thus it wasn't a valid law.

You are nuts.

Sweet fail...

It's really arrogant how some christians think they know jewish law better than jews who have been studying it for about 2,000 years.

So you've come to advance the aforementioned obtuse attitude and rejection of common sense that you have so consistently exhibited?

LOL... GO FIGURE!

Jewish law ...

The issue isn't the law sis; it's the obtuse interpretations of such...

The fatal flaw in your little rationalization here is that Christ is God... THE GOD... Thus there's no worship of 'another' God...

And that's it... case closed.

I don't give a red rat's ass about your interpretation of Jewish Law... or anyone elses for that matter.

The thing about Law is that to be valid, it must serve justice; and where the Law serves power... it fails to serve justice.

 

[AllieBaba]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

Second coming.
Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine. Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

 

[Foxfyre]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

Second coming.
Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine. Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

But that is YOUR belief Allie. Pretty much mine too, but, if we also subscribe to certain other Christian beliefs, it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus is God incarnate, the Messiah that was prophesied, and our Saviour. The Messiah we got was not at all the one the Jews anticipated and expected.

That is why I can appreciate why non-Christian Jews are not believers. But I do not question their devotion or love for God or His love and devotion to them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

We are talking about Romans and jews. This is actually from a christian site. I have little time

ROMAN RULE IN ISRAEL - Awesome Stories

Rome appointed Herod King of Judea in 40 BC. Herod’s only path to power was as king because as a converted Jew (he and his family were Edomites), he could never be a Jewish priest. His loyalty was to Rome, even though he built many projects in Judea and reconstructed the Jewish temple (sometimes referred to as the Second Temple) in Jerusalem in 19 BC. He built a famous city on the Mediterranean - with an impressive artificial harbor - and named it Caesarea in honor of his ally Caesar Augustus, the Roman ruler.

When Herod died, in 4 BC, Roman oppression of the Jews worsened dramatically. By 6 AD, Judea was a Roman province where the tax burden imposed on the Jews became nearly unbearable. Although Roman rulers (called Procurators) ran the country, Judea was one province Rome could not totally tame absent a very heavy hand.

Of course, you missed the part where the Jews lived quite peacefully under Roman rule for a long time, being allowed to practice their own religion and even having their synagogues legally considered as centers of learning in order to bypass the Roman law against secret societies. It was only after Judea erupted into rebellion and had to be suppressed that Roman rule in that area became oppressive. Interestingly, several Roman governors of the area were sent home in disgrace for mismanaging Judea and being too oppressive, thereby fomenting the rebellion.

Point still stands. Rome was interested in peaceful rule as much as possible, and they mostly understood that that was accomplished by leaving conquered peoples to their own devices as much as they could.

Once again, it's all the jews' fault for rising in rebellion

They rose in rebellion because they were being surpressed and oppressed by the romans.

No, once again, how people were treated when they fomented rebellion says NOTHING about the usual way the Roman Empire conducted business with its territories, nor does it make the Romans "vicious oppressors".

I don't know what your insane hate-on toward Romans is about, but you are now officially boring me with your "I talked to Bubba on the front porch while drinking beer" history lessons.

FLUSH!

 

[AllieBaba]

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

Second coming.
Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine. Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

But that is YOUR belief Allie. Pretty much mine too, but, if we also subscribe to certain other Christian beliefs, it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus is God incarnate, the Messiah that was prophesied, and our Saviour. The Messiah we got was not at all the one the Jews anticipated and expected.

That is why I can appreciate why non-Christian Jews are not believers. But I do not question their devotion or love for God or His love and devotion to them.

Oh I don't either.
But I will challenge people who claim that my God isn't the Jewish God, or insists that I worship multiple dieties.

And I misspelled "divine", I just noticed that. Doh!

 

[Foxfyre]

Second coming.
Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine. Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

But that is YOUR belief Allie. Pretty much mine too, but, if we also subscribe to certain other Christian beliefs, it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus is God incarnate, the Messiah that was prophesied, and our Saviour. The Messiah we got was not at all the one the Jews anticipated and expected.

That is why I can appreciate why non-Christian Jews are not believers. But I do not question their devotion or love for God or His love and devotion to them.

Oh I don't either.
But I will challenge people who claim that my God isn't the Jewish God, or insists that I worship multiple dieties.

And I misspelled "divine", I just noticed that. Doh!

Agreed. For many, perhaps most, Christians, the New Testament is a continuation of the same story. Same God. Just different understanding and perceptions of our relationship with God and who the Messiah would be from Adam to Abraham to Moses to David to the Christian era.

(Spelling police deserve stern looks.)

 

[CMike]

Of course, you missed the part where the Jews lived quite peacefully under Roman rule for a long time, being allowed to practice their own religion and even having their synagogues legally considered as centers of learning in order to bypass the Roman law against secret societies. It was only after Judea erupted into rebellion and had to be suppressed that Roman rule in that area became oppressive. Interestingly, several Roman governors of the area were sent home in disgrace for mismanaging Judea and being too oppressive, thereby fomenting the rebellion.

Point still stands. Rome was interested in peaceful rule as much as possible, and they mostly understood that that was accomplished by leaving conquered peoples to their own devices as much as they could.

Once again, it's all the jews' fault for rising in rebellion

They rose in rebellion because they were being surpressed and oppressed by the romans.

No, once again, how people were treated when they fomented rebellion says NOTHING about the usual way the Roman Empire conducted business with its territories, nor does it make the Romans "vicious oppressors".

I don't know what your insane hate-on toward Romans is about, but you are now officially boring me with your "I talked to Bubba on the front porch while drinking beer" history lessons.

FLUSH!

 

[CMike]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

Second coming.

Another fabrication. I quoted the passages where exactly does it say anything about a second coming?

Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine.

You certaintly can. It's called idol worship. But you are right you certainly have a legal right to worship whatever or whomever you wish.

Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

More christian creations.

I am not aware of anywhere in the Torah, where jews are punished for rejecting the messiah. Jews are punished for rejecting G-D.

In any case it's very simple.

G-D gave the messianic prophesies. The true messiah will fulfill them. I really you have to do creative dancing and create multiple comings because it's clear that jesus didn't fulfill any of them.

Jews have no choice but to reject false messiahs and false gods.

The messiah will never claim to be divine. That within itself ascertains that jesus could never be the messiah in the Torah.

He can certainly be the christian messiah, but he certainly has nothing to do with judaism, other than a person who challenged G-D's authority.

 

[CMike]

Second coming.
Of course I can worship Jesus and treat him as devine. Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

But that is YOUR belief Allie. Pretty much mine too, but, if we also subscribe to certain other Christian beliefs, it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we know Jesus is God incarnate, the Messiah that was prophesied, and our Saviour. The Messiah we got was not at all the one the Jews anticipated and expected.

That is why I can appreciate why non-Christian Jews are not believers. But I do not question their devotion or love for God or His love and devotion to them.

Oh I don't either.
But I will challenge people who claim that my God isn't the Jewish God, or insists that I worship multiple dieties.

And I misspelled "divine", I just noticed that. Doh!

Whomever you are worshipping it's not the G-D from the Torah. If it ways then you wouldn't be bowing your head to jesus.

 

[Gadawg73]

Since this is an open question to all Christians, I can answer even though my answer is not relevant.


I don't.


I'm not.


Nothing. It's not.

Question to you. Why are you assuming that all Christians (other than yourself, of course) demonstrate these assumed characteristics? Why are you so infatuated with someone else's faith?

I am asking the same question as you.

No, you're not.

You're asking a question to a group of people that you believe have certain prejudices. I'm asking a question to you specifically about why you believe they all have those prejudices.

Indeed, your assumptions about the views and beliefs of a group of people could equally be called a prejudice.

So, not really the same question at all.

And, by the way, you haven't answered it.

You question is based on the incorrect premise and claim that "they all have those prejudices".
And I informed you that your credibility is lacking because I never claimed that and most of your other accusations anywhere.
I do not believe a certain group have certain prejudices. I KNOW they do by their actions.

 

[AllieBaba]

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel
  
• Kept them all there
  
• Created world peace
  
• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

Another fabrication. I quoted the passages where exactly does it say anything about a second coming?




You certaintly can. It's called idol worship. But you are right you certainly have a legal right to worship whatever or whomever you wish.

Everything predicted in the OT regarding the punishment of the Jews for rejecting the Messiah have come true.

More christian creations.

I am not aware of anywhere in the Torah, where jews are punished for rejecting the messiah. Jews are punished for rejecting G-D.

In any case it's very simple.

G-D gave the messianic prophesies. The true messiah will fulfill them. I really you have to do creative dancing and create multiple comings because it's clear that jesus didn't fulfill any of them.

Jews have no choice but to reject false messiahs and false gods.

The messiah will never claim to be divine. That within itself ascertains that jesus could never be the messiah in the Torah.

He can certainly be the christian messiah, but he certainly has nothing to do with judaism, other than a person who challenged G-D's authority.

Christ never claimed to be divine.

And of course you reject him. That's what the Jews do. They disobey God, they're punished, and yet he still collects them up at the end.

 

[AllieBaba]

And I missed your quotes.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Jesus is God, and he did fulfill all the prophesies of the OT. Jews do not accept this, as the OT prophesied they would not.

Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same being. It is one of the mysteries of our Father that is too complex to fully grasp.

I listed the prophesies.

Please explain how jesus

• brought all the jews to israel

done

• Kept them all there

in progress...

• Created world peace

coming soon to a theater near you...

• Rebuilt the temple in jerusalem which would stand forever

He will...

The Torah is thousands of pages, and G-d went into great detail, even giving the exact measurements that the temple should be constructed.

Yet all this father, son, and all the other christian creations are never mentioned in it.

He did explain it, but you continue to refuse to hear it.

In fact, G-D said to only trust him, and him alone. He also said to not add or subtract from the Torah.

Yep, but you keep subtracting from it.

Look, it's really simply, you either what G-D said in the Torah or your don't. If you do, you can not worship jesus, or treat him as any divine being in any way.

You mean, either I interpret it the way you do or I interpret it the way G-d does. I choose G-d's interpretation.