A question for the pro-abortion aka pro-choice crowd

[Dr.Drock]

Yeah, Rick Perry tried claiming abstinence is infallible as well. Everybody knows that hormones trump brains far too often for that to be true.

Lust (thinking about sex) outside of marriage or if you're married and you think about someone else it's a sin according to the Bible, you don't even have to perform any kind of action.

Matthew 5:28 NIV - But I tell you that anyone who looks at - Bible Gateway

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

[metavate]

There is a lot of difference between something dying of "natural" causes ie a woman who has a miscarriage and actually killing something deliberately.

I have no idea where you are going with that argument.

Can we at least agree that people should not be using abortions as a means of contraceptive?

 

[jillian]

My real life solution is to advocate absintinence, educate children about the permanency of bad decisions when they are young, reward them for self control and responsibility at a young age, and quit telling them that it's perfectly normal for them to have sex. It's NOT normal or healthy for children to have sex, and we need to quit pretending it is. It leads to all sorts of depravity, emotional and physical issues for the kids. They aren't old enough to vote or drink, they aren't old enough for sex.

Pretty simple. And stop marketing abortion as a cure-all for behavior that shouldn't be taking place in teh first place. The fact that they can get abortions without input from their parents or naming the fathers is criminal, and needs to be stopped. Not solely because of the babies that are slaughtered, but because of the harm that is done to the children upon whom the abortions are being performed, and the way the perpetrators who abuse them are protected and delivered from all accountability.

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

 

[Wicked Jester]

My real life solution is to advocate absintinence, educate children about the permanency of bad decisions when they are young, reward them for self control and responsibility at a young age, and quit telling them that it's perfectly normal for them to have sex. It's NOT normal or healthy for children to have sex, and we need to quit pretending it is. It leads to all sorts of depravity, emotional and physical issues for the kids. They aren't old enough to vote or drink, they aren't old enough for sex.

Pretty simple. And stop marketing abortion as a cure-all for behavior that shouldn't be taking place in teh first place. The fact that they can get abortions without input from their parents or naming the fathers is criminal, and needs to be stopped. Not solely because of the babies that are slaughtered, but because of the harm that is done to the children upon whom the abortions are being performed, and the way the perpetrators who abuse them are protected and delivered from all accountability.

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

"terminate a pregnancy"

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah!......I remember now, that's liberal code words for viciously exterminating an innocent life, who had no say so in the matter whatsoever.......Isn't that speeeeeeeciiiiiiaaaaaaaaaallllllll?

The NAZI'S would be so proud and impressed with you lib's!.........ACHTUNG BABIES!

 

[jillian]

My real life solution is to advocate absintinence, educate children about the permanency of bad decisions when they are young, reward them for self control and responsibility at a young age, and quit telling them that it's perfectly normal for them to have sex. It's NOT normal or healthy for children to have sex, and we need to quit pretending it is. It leads to all sorts of depravity, emotional and physical issues for the kids. They aren't old enough to vote or drink, they aren't old enough for sex.

Pretty simple. And stop marketing abortion as a cure-all for behavior that shouldn't be taking place in teh first place. The fact that they can get abortions without input from their parents or naming the fathers is criminal, and needs to be stopped. Not solely because of the babies that are slaughtered, but because of the harm that is done to the children upon whom the abortions are being performed, and the way the perpetrators who abuse them are protected and delivered from all accountability.

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

"terminate a pregnancy"

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah!......I remember now, that's liberal code words for viciously exterminating an innocent life, who had no say so in the matter whatsoever.......Isn't that speeeeeeeciiiiiiaaaaaaaaaallllllll?

The NAZI'S would be so proud and impressed with you lib's!.........ACHTUNG BABIES!

you know, joker... you and i have no personal issue. so don't ever compare me to nazis.

no matter how much the rabid religious right thinks government should turn women into incubators.

 

[HotDogg]

Jester thinks that all life is sacred, he came up with that right after he killed an animal and called it lunch.

 

[koshergrl]

My real life solution is to advocate absintinence, educate children about the permanency of bad decisions when they are young, reward them for self control and responsibility at a young age, and quit telling them that it's perfectly normal for them to have sex. It's NOT normal or healthy for children to have sex, and we need to quit pretending it is. It leads to all sorts of depravity, emotional and physical issues for the kids. They aren't old enough to vote or drink, they aren't old enough for sex.

Pretty simple. And stop marketing abortion as a cure-all for behavior that shouldn't be taking place in teh first place. The fact that they can get abortions without input from their parents or naming the fathers is criminal, and needs to be stopped. Not solely because of the babies that are slaughtered, but because of the harm that is done to the children upon whom the abortions are being performed, and the way the perpetrators who abuse them are protected and delivered from all accountability.

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

Just because it is a religious belief that murder, as well as other crimes, should be prevented does not mean that anyone who wishes to "impose" that sort of morality upon others does it solely from a religious standpoint.

I imagine you also object when Muslims impose their belief that murder isn't murder if it's done under Sharia law.

But what it if's just murder for the sake of convenience, or greed? Do we say that's okay? Is that what you're saying? Murder is okay so long as there is no claim of morality attached to the objection? Because that's silly. And that is what the pro-abortionists claim. Murder is okay so long as it has no religious connotation, and is done privately. And of course that's about as backwards as it gets.

 

[koshergrl]

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

"terminate a pregnancy"

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah!......I remember now, that's liberal code words for viciously exterminating an innocent life, who had no say so in the matter whatsoever.......Isn't that speeeeeeeciiiiiiaaaaaaaaaallllllll?

The NAZI'S would be so proud and impressed with you lib's!.........ACHTUNG BABIES!

you know, joker... you and i have no personal issue. so don't ever compare me to nazis.

no matter how much the rabid religious right thinks government should turn women into incubators.

No, the religious right wants to prevent women being encouraged to incubate life, just to kill it. The religious right wants women to respect their bodies, and the bodies of the children they create....to avoid behavior that will lead to surprise babies, and to be accountable when they make mistakes (as we all do) and not think that their mistake is justification for murder of another being.

 

[Dragon]

The answer to the OP is that most abortions are performed as a form of backup birth control, because a woman becomes pregnant who is for whatever reason unready to have a child. Whether this is a problem depends on one's own views of several matters.

First, if for religious reasons you regard an embryo with no brain, no nervous system, no thoughts, no feelings, no personality, and no ability to feel pain or fear as morally indistinguishable from an actual newborn baby, you may regard the termination of the pregnancy in its early stages as killing a person, which of course no one lacking that particular religious conviction would.

Second, if again for religious or at least moral reasons you have a negative view of women having sex outside marriage, which is to say under circumstances in which they are not the possessions of men and under male control, you may see pregnancy as some form of divine punishment for misbehavior and have a problem with making things easier for such women. (This view was expressed above by the person who said that the reason women have abortions is "because they're sluts.")

Of course, there are abortions which are undertaken for other reasons, such as medical necessity, but that is I'm sure the most common reason. You could probably have answered it yourself with a Google search.

Any more questions?

 

[Wicked Jester]

your "real life solution" is a fantasy. and like most other good intentions, is naive.

and, once more, hon, feel free to never ever ever terminate a pregnancy. just stay out of other people's decision-making process. mmmmkay?

while you are entitled to your beliefs, i don't share them. And there's no reason in the world you should be able to impose those beliefs, which are based largely in your religious dogma, on others.

"terminate a pregnancy"

Ohhhhhhhhhh yeah!......I remember now, that's liberal code words for viciously exterminating an innocent life, who had no say so in the matter whatsoever.......Isn't that speeeeeeeciiiiiiaaaaaaaaaallllllll?

The NAZI'S would be so proud and impressed with you lib's!.........ACHTUNG BABIES!

you know, joker... you and i have no personal issue. so don't ever compare me to nazis.

no matter how much the rabid religious right thinks government should turn women into incubators.

Viciously exterminating innocent human life, is what it is, PERIOD!

 

[Dragon]

Viciously exterminating innocent life, is what it is, PERIOD!

So is cutting myself shaving.

 

[Dr.Drock]

That is a moronic argument, so half are going to die anyway so we may as well kill them to make sure?? What?? Surely your argument would be better suited in the pro life camp. If a doctor said to a mother, "look there is a 50% chance the baby will naturally abort". Then the mother might decide to take THAT chance.

The fact is we are living in a society where sex with a stranger doesn't bat most young peoples eye-lids.

They are using abortion as a contraceptive. Which is WRONG. Each abortion case should be looked at in full before someone takes the decision to terminate another human life.

Think about it, what if it was you in the womb? And men, what if it was your child who you are watching running around playing today, or watched grow up. What if your wife/partner had decided to deny that life.

If the mother doesn't want to have the child or can't support it, then 1. She shouldn't be having unprotected sex and 2. There are plenty of familys out there willing to adopt. 9 months pregnancy is not a lot to ask for, for your mistake and for another human to live their life.

I'm not arguing that you should just get an abortion anyways because of the high miscarriage rate, but I'm arguing that natural abortions are a very common thing. For whatever reason, the pro life crowd doesn't seem to give a lick about the natural abortion rate, which vastly dwarfs the unnatural abortion rate.

Consider this hypothetical situation: A woman has a natural condition which causes a thinning of the unterine wall, making it nearly impossible for implantation of a fertilized egg during ovulation. This woman is aware of her condition, and she has accepted the fact that she will almost certainly not be able to have children. She is married, and enjoys a healthy sex life with her spouse, which she wishes to continue.

If this woman, whose womb essentially acts as a natural abortifacient, continues to have sex with her husband, do you really believe that she is guilty of mass infanticide (keep in mind she is knowledgeable of her condition)? If the pro lifers truly believe that the life of every fertilized egg is just as valuable as my own life, then you must believe this to be consistent. If the pro lifers don't believe that she is guilty of mass infanticide, then you must believe that a fertilized egg isn't necessarily enough to constitute a human being. So which is it?

This is too good of a post to not have a reply.

 

[koshergrl]

The answer to the OP is that most abortions are performed as a form of backup birth control, because a woman becomes pregnant who is for whatever reason unready to have a child. Whether this is a problem depends on one's own views of several matters.

First, if for religious reasons you regard an embryo with no brain, no nervous system, no thoughts, no feelings, no personality, and no ability to feel pain or fear as morally indistinguishable from an actual newborn baby, you may regard the termination of the pregnancy in its early stages as killing a person, which of course no one lacking that particular religious conviction would.

Second, if again for religious or at least moral reasons you have a negative view of women having sex outside marriage, which is to say under circumstances in which they are not the possessions of men and under male control, you may see pregnancy as some form of divine punishment for misbehavior and have a problem with making things easier for such women. (This view was expressed above by the person who said that the reason women have abortions is "because they're sluts.")

Of course, there are abortions which are undertaken for other reasons, such as medical necessity, but that is I'm sure the most common reason. You could probably have answered it yourself with a Google search.

Any more questions?

another fallacy...the religious right does NOT see pregnancy as punishment. That is the viewpoint of the left, who think that pregnancy is a horror that must be avoiced at all costs (including via murder) if it's not planned.

The religious right views all pregnancy as a blessing, all life as sacred, and while we don't encourage women to engage in behavior that will result in untimely pregnancy we still view pregnancy and babies as divine gifts from GodYoud on 't compound one sin (fornication/adultery) with another (murder). You accept the consequences, you review and repent of the behavior that had unforeseen consequences, and you move on, trying to be a better person, trying tod o the right thing, trying to make it right for everyone involved.

It's not that bad an outlook. Really.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Viciously exterminating innocent life, is what it is, PERIOD!

So is cutting myself shaving.

Unfortunately, those who back the extermination of innocent life, like to put it into such simple comparisons. No doubt in an effort to justify their sickness.

"termination of pregancy"?

Lets just call it what it is....The vicious extermination of human life.

There is no minimizing the vicious chopping up of an innocent life, to then be summarily sucked from the womb, and tossed in the garbage like a piece of trash.

 

[Dragon]

another fallacy...the religious right does NOT see pregnancy as punishment.

Excuse me, but you're in no position to say that. You can only really say that YOU don't see pregnancy as punishment. I'll take your word for that, at least until I know you better, but I know from personal experience that some members of the religious right do see it that way, and that abortion (or, for the more extreme versions, even contraception) is an escape from responsibility.

It's not that bad an outlook. Really.

In its twisted manifestation, I disagree.

 

[koshergrl]

Excuse me, dragonl...did you not say the religious right views pregnancy as a punishment? I'd say that you are in no position to say THAT. I can provide quote after quote of lefties claiming we shouldn't "punish" women with pregnancy...but I have yet to hear one conservative Christian leader say "they made the mistake, they deserve the punishment of the childl!"

Kindly don't make such ridiculous generalizations, then claim nobody else has the right to object to them. It's juvenile.

 

[Dragon]

Unfortunately, those who back the extermination of innocent life, like to put it into such simple comparisons.

I'm going to snip the rest of your post which consisted of nothing but completely-unjustified (insofar as you don't know who I am in any way, sir) ad homs and personal insults, and deal just with this which at least vaguely resembles an argument.

It's a perfectly valid comparison, and apparently you missed the point of it. The point being that "extermination of life" (innocent or otherwise) is not what we need to be looking for. Not even if we add "human" in front of "life," which we should and which is why I used the shaving example and didn't go with, say, stepping on a cockroach.

When I cut myself shaving, I have destroyed "human life." If I punch someone in the nose and cause a nosebleed, I have destroyed "human life." Every month, every woman of childbearing age who is not pregnant destroys "human life," or at least her body does. Every time a man ejaculates, he destroys "human life" in all of the sperm cells of his ejaculate that do not find and fertilize an ovum.

Many cells are "human life" which are not persons. And there is no question that an embryo at conception is "human life." The question is whether it is a person. And I insist that it is not.

 

[Dragon]

Excuse me, dragonl...did you not say the religious right views pregnancy as a punishment?

No, I said that some members of it do. And as I personally know some members of the religious right who do, yes, I am in a position to say that.

 

[koshergrl]

You can say it, but it bears no weight because it's just you saying you have personal knowledge of something that can't be verified.

Please provide verification of Christian leaders proclaiming that pregnancy is a just punishment for those who disobey God and get themselves knocked up. I've been a Christian all my life, and have yet to hear anyone on the side of Christianity, say that. I have heard them say that we need to be responsible and accountable for our errors...but that is not the same.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Unfortunately, those who back the extermination of innocent life, like to put it into such simple comparisons.

I'm going to snip the rest of your post which consisted of nothing but completely-unjustified (insofar as you don't know who I am in any way, sir) ad homs and personal insults, and deal just with this which at least vaguely resembles an argument.

It's a perfectly valid comparison, and apparently you missed the point of it. The point being that "extermination of life" (innocent or otherwise) is not what we need to be looking for. Not even if we add "human" in front of "life," which we should and which is why I used the shaving example and didn't go with, say, stepping on a cockroach.

When I cut myself shaving, I have destroyed "human life." If I punch someone in the nose and cause a nosebleed, I have destroyed "human life." Every month, every woman of childbearing age who is not pregnant destroys "human life," or at least her body does. Every time a man ejaculates, he destroys "human life" in all of the sperm cells of his ejaculate that do not find and fertilize an ovum.

Many cells are "human life" which are not persons. And there is no question that an embryo at conception is "human life." The question is whether it is a person. And I insist that it is not.

Nice try at attempting minimize the vicious extermination of innocent human life......Unfortunately, it was another epic fail, as it always is, by those who try to justify, and minimize it away from what it truly is.