A personal note to Climate Change Deniers

[DrLove]

The subject is not current emissions.

LOL!

In 20 years, they'll have left us in the dust unless something changes real quick

You lied when you said, "They've left us in the dust pal"

So, how many new nuclear power plants should we build?

Yes, on investments in infrastructure and clean energy they HAVE left us in the dust ...
While Dear Leader has done NOTHING.

I'll pass on more nukes until we can figure out what to do with the waste.

One day in a nuclear age
They may understand our rage
They build machines that they can't control
And bury the waste in a great big hole
Deadly for ten thousand years
Is Carbon-14

I'll pass on more nukes until we can figure out what to do with the waste.

CO2 is an existential threat, 12 years until it kills us, or was AOC lying?

Deadly for ten thousand years
Is Carbon-14

Sting, still an idiot.

I'm not an AOC fan or a New Green Deal Fan.
Neither is Uncle Joe - So stop repeating THAT lie.
Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

If he thinks C-14 is deadly for 10,000 years, he's dumber than you.

Might you LEARN something at some point?
Seems doubtful ...

Carbon-14 goes through radioactive beta decay:

14
6C
→ 14
7N
+
e−
+
ν
e
By emitting an electron and an electron antineutrino, one of the neutrons in the carbon-14 atom decays to a proton and the carbon-14 (half-life of 5,700 ± 40 years[6]) decays into the stable (non-radioactive) isotope nitrogen-14.

Donald's NRC pegs it at 1000 years. Then again, he has corrupted all science and shelved all scientific agencies - Whatever man.

NRC: Backgrounder on Radioactive Waste

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission, protecting people and the environment.

www.nrc.gov

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The subject is not current emissions.

LOL!

In 20 years, they'll have left us in the dust unless something changes real quick

You lied when you said, "They've left us in the dust pal"

So, how many new nuclear power plants should we build?

Yes, on investments in infrastructure and clean energy they HAVE left us in the dust ...
While Dear Leader has done NOTHING.

I'll pass on more nukes until we can figure out what to do with the waste.

One day in a nuclear age
They may understand our rage
They build machines that they can't control
And bury the waste in a great big hole
Deadly for ten thousand years
Is Carbon-14

I'll pass on more nukes until we can figure out what to do with the waste.

CO2 is an existential threat, 12 years until it kills us, or was AOC lying?

Deadly for ten thousand years
Is Carbon-14

Sting, still an idiot.

I'm not an AOC fan or a New Green Deal Fan.
Neither is Uncle Joe - So stop repeating THAT lie.
Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

If he thinks C-14 is deadly for 10,000 years, he's dumber than you.

Might you LEARN something at some point?
Seems doubtful ...

Carbon-14 goes through radioactive beta decay:

14
6C
→ 14
7N
+
e−
+
ν
e
By emitting an electron and an electron antineutrino, one of the neutrons in the carbon-14 atom decays to a proton and the carbon-14 (half-life of 5,700 ± 40 years[6]) decays into the stable (non-radioactive) isotope nitrogen-14.

Donald's NRC pegs it at 1000 years. Then again, he has corrupted all science and shelved all scientific agencies - Whatever man.

NRC: Backgrounder on Radioactive Waste

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission, protecting people and the environment.

www.nrc.gov

Yeah, low energy beta particle. DURR.

 

[flacaltenn]

There is responsible forest management and irresponsible forest management. But nobody can tell me that 820 million acres of forest floors can be "raked" or kept clean in any manner. It is a physical impossibility.

There's hardly any rakes involved in systematic forest management. All my roommates in college (for some damn reason) were forest management. I visited them on the job in Idaho, Oregon, and Cali for years.. The main issue is ACCESS.. Leftist tree huggers wanted ZERO HUMAN FOOTPRINT in federal/state managed forests.. No fire trails -- no fire breaks -- no bridges over streams/rivers/gorges -- no removal of massive DIE OFF of vegetation/trees.. No disease mitigation, no "multi-use" partnerships for infrastructure. This is INSANE... And the building at the edges of parks and wilderness is way past "advice from experts"...

Here's an example of irresponsible forest management in Oregon. Companies like Weyerhaeuser who were responsible for clearcutting have - Partly due to environmental legislation - Seen then the wisdom of replanting many of these areas. And they do a pretty good job of thinning, with the planting of several seedlings in the empty spot left after taking out a tree.

Convenient photo.. Much like those tearful pics of mining operations BEFORE restoration.. Mt Saint Helens killed EVERYTHING on the downslope.. Filled lakes, ponds, valleys with unimaginable amounts of unremovable debris.. Ten years on -- Mother Nature was well on the way to "fixing that"..

If Weyerhauser OWNS the land -- it WILL be replanted. It's what you call "renewable" in the truer sense of the word. And sustainable..

For ME -- I trust folks like the Nature Conservancy that BUY the land and contract out the appropriate mgt or make deals with land owners to PRESERVE it themselves..

Much more effective then the Forestry and BLM auctioning off timber cuts.. In fact, in most polls, MORE people TRUST the Nature Conservancy far more for land mgt than the govt..

 

[flacaltenn]

The subject is not current emissions.

LOL!

In 20 years, they'll have left us in the dust unless something changes real quick

You lied when you said, "They've left us in the dust pal"

So, how many new nuclear power plants should we build?

Yes, on investments in infrastructure and clean energy they HAVE left us in the dust ...
While Dear Leader has done NOTHING.

I'll pass on more nukes until we can figure out what to do with the waste.

One day in a nuclear age
They may understand our rage
They build machines that they can't control
And bury the waste in a great big hole
Deadly for twelve thousand years
Is Carbon-14

Man -- have YOU got this all wrong.. Since you're such an expert on what GW says -- I'm sure you know the "godfather of Global Warming" -- James Hansen.. Former dictator and fudge maker at NASA GISS -- in charge of GW...

He's on record in a policy paper with about 10 other High Priests of GW saying that ---

"If you think wind and solar is sufficient to change the course of GW -- you probably also believe in the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny"

You do -- dontcha? The paper was a complete endorsement of commercial nuclear power.. Follow the science will ya??

Takes 0.7 ounces of atomic material to power a mid-size house for an entire year.. That's the weight of about a AA battery.. The toxic stuff USED in batteries (heavy metals) HAVE AN INFINITE HALF-LIFE in landfills.. And YET -- you're A-OK and GO for launch for powering buses, cars, MAC trucks with charged batteries...

SURELY we could safely handle 0.7 ounces of waste from a household every year if the GOVERNMENT would allow reprocessing and fulfill THEIR PROMISE to build a national repository.

It is the FEDERAL GOVT that is HANDS DOWN the largest nuclear polluter in this country.. Their weapons research and development lands are FULL of leaking 50 gallon drums of stuff.. Bulldozers so radioactive they have to bury them ON SITE in Hanford, Savannah River, OakRidge and other places.. It's GOVT INCOMPETENCE and INEPTNESS stopping solutions..,

As for fossil fuels -- DESPITE the best effort of Fed Govt to PREVENT IT --- This country has REDUCED its CO2 emissions back to 1990 levels --- by simply becoming energy independent and fracking for Natural Gas... We've done MORE for GW by allowing this happen -- than ANY OTHER COUNTRY still entrenched in the fairytale Paris Accords...

"Sting" doesn't know any of this... Doesn't know that his marble counters in his gourmet kitchen are MORE radioactive than anything connected with a nuclear plant.. Doesn't know radioactive carbon isotopes are in most of our foods, -- in trees, plants, and every other living being...

In fact, finding C12 -- C14 in trees and ice cores is one of the IMPERFECT proxies for a real thermometer that all those phony "hockey stick" were created from.. You and Sting got a LOT of science to mull over or mow over to get "your way on things" here....

PS -- Poetry aint gonna make any arguments that stick...

 

[Thunk]

Facebook (Russian likely) conspiracies all debunked by fire officials should not be repeated.
Just STOP it - Links provided earlier in thread.

Don't ever try to tell me what I'm ALLOWED to say!

I guarantee you'll lose that war!

 

[flacaltenn]

It seems that the areas where the fires are have active Antifa chapters, where the cities are burning too....

But ain't it amazing how the fires stop at the canadian border where there are no BLM/antifa?

That's one helluva cowinkydink!

Facebook (Russian likely) conspiracies all debunked by fire officials should not be repeated.
Just STOP it - Links provided earlier in thread.

Probably because the reports are all about America -- not Canada.. Betcha if they're ON the border, they CROSS the border and just aren't graphed...

 

[flacaltenn]

Didn't need any Russians to help me find the 2 charts for Wash State and B.Columbia..

ONLY fires in B.C. are on the border and most almost under control... I'll place a bet that Canada relies MORE on forest science than the USA and that's the reason..

Put these side by side in 2 different windows...

ArcGIS Dashboards

ArcGIS Dashboards

governmentofbc.maps.arcgis.com

Washington Wildfire Map - Current Washington Wildfires, Forest Fires, and Lightning Strikes | Fire, Weather & Avalanche Center

Interactive real-time wildfire and forest fire map for Washington. See current wildfires and wildfire perimeters in Washington using the Fire, Weather & Avalanche Center Wildfire Map.

www.fireweatheravalanche.org

 

[ReinyDays]

[cough cough cough] ... let me start by offering my commiserations to the OP ... I'm please you're still alive, there have been deaths reported this week ... [cough cough cough] ... quarter mile visibility in dense smoke in the Umpqua Valley ... [cough cough cough] ... all of Douglas County is under Level 1 evacuation alert (`be ready`) ...

The problem with your logic is that these types of forest fires occurred before the industrial revolution ... so the cause has nothing to do with CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere ... this was a Chinook wind event, not very common here but nonetheless they do occur ... these are somewhat similar to the Santa Ana's they get in SoCal ... hot, dry and fast ...

You get the vast bulk of your rain between October and May ... I'm 40 or 50 miles inland from you and we've seen nothing ... zero inches of rain ... since about mid-June ... and this is absolutely climatological ... normal as normal can be, perhaps as far back as the formation of the Coast Range ... i.e. climate hasn't change on the ground you stand on since the ground you stand on was ground to stand on ...

Increased amounts of CO2 in the air is far far less of a problem than increased amounts of humans playing with matches in the tinder dry forests ... just looking at where all these fires started I think we'll find they're all human caused ... some jack wagon mowing his lawn, Labor Day campfires not completely put out, electric wires shorting out ... all these fires started where humans congregate ... and there was NO dry lightning in the region ... there's four times as many forest fires today because there's four times as many people ... severe weather causes four times the damage because there's four times as much stuff to damage ...

You're more likely to endure a 7.5 to 8.0 magnitude earthquake before your climate changes ... and there's a (barely) non-trivial chance you'll see 9.3 to 9.7 magnitude earthquake and a 150 foot tsunami in your lifetime ... climate change after you've passed away is the least of your worries ...

Just stupid going into the woods this time of year ... in a month or two you'll have your first two feet of rain and THEN go play in the woods ...

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Sadly most of our vehicles still run on fossil fuel.
If you can give me 80 grand, I'll opt for a super cool new Tesla.

From where do you think the energy comes to power one of those?

Especially in parts of California, where PG&E is now shutting down power to parts of the state in extreme weather, to keep from sparking yet another wildfire; and rolling blackouts are also being imposed on hot days, because there's not enough power available to keep everyone's air conditioning running?

It's really stupid—not just ordinary stupid, but extreme, almost DrLove-level stupid—to be so heavily promoting the use of electric vehicles when we cannot reliably meet our existing needs for electric power.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

And yet again, your sources SUUUUUUCK!!

CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE

• Overall, we rate Watts Up with That a strong pseudoscience and conspiracy website based on the promotion of consistent human influenced climate denialism propaganda.

At least he named and cited his source. All you did was post a graphic and text, presumably from some site that you didn't even name or identify in any way, giving us no way to verify its credibility, and in fact, no basis on which to assume that it has any credibility,

The quoted text “…based on the promotion of consistent human influenced climate denialism propaganda…” seems to indicate that it is a source that is biased in favor of the “climate change/global warming” hoax, indicating that even if you did identify it, it would have no credibility except among ignorant cretins who buy into that scam.

It does help a bit, if you are attacking the credibility of another person or his cited sources, if in so doing, you can, yourself achieve some vestige of credibility comparable to that of the one you are attacking. Even for you, this is a rather spectacular fail.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

If he thinks C-14 is deadly for 10,000 years, he's dumber than you.

I wonder if he understands anything about radiocarbon dating and the role that ¹⁴C plays in it.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Electric vehicles will not replace ICE vehicles until you can charge the battery to full from empty just as quick as you can fill up a tank of gas.

I'm reminded of a time, some years ago, when I worked as a forklift operator at a now-extinct Campbell's Soup factory. My forklift was powered by a lead-acid battery that was approximately a cubic yard in size, and weight about 3,500 pounds. I wondered how much gasoline it would take to contain the equivalent amount of energy to what that battery could hold. Keep in mind that this battery, by itself, weighs more than a typical modern mid-sized sedan.

Looking at the specifications on the battery itself, I determined that it had a nominal capacity of about 40 kilowatt-hours. Some further research revealed that a typical gallon of gasoline contains about 33.7 kilowatt-hours of energy that can be released by burning it.

Yes, you read that right. A forklift battery that weighs more than a car, can hold only a little bit more than a gallon of gasoline's worth of energy,

During the time that I worked at that factory, we upgraded our battery system to include some special high-speed chargers, and special batteries that could withstand being charged at the higher rate that these chargers offered. This gave us the capability to take a battery from nearly-empty to nearly-full in about eight hours, which was a significant improvement over the previous system.

Can you imagine what it'd be like if it took almost eight hours to pump a gallon of gasoline into a car? Several days to fill up a gas tank?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Sting? He could intellectually run circles around your sad ass.

If he thinks C-14 is deadly for 10,000 years, he's dumber than you.

I wonder if he understands anything about radiocarbon dating and the role that ¹⁴C plays in it.

Or the weakness of low energy Beta particles.

I mean, they can travel about 9 inches through air.

Deadly as a nuclear bomb. They leave no survivors. LOL!

 

[Obiwan]

I also had little fuel in my truck too sparse to attempt a run south.

Well, the ironic bright side is that unlike the deniers who probably had plenty of gas to flee with, you did your part in fighting climatechange by not having enough gas and not leaving a larger carbon footprint and that is what counts here.

Sadly most of our vehicles still run on fossil fuel.
If you can give me 80 grand, I'll opt for a super cool new Tesla.
Until then, my carbon footprint is quite small putting maybe 5k miles on my truck each year.
My home here in LC is modest - 1600 sf with a beautiful ocean view and energy efficient EVERYTHING.
I can give you my PayPal info if you'd like to send me money!

Electric vehicles will not replace ICE vehicles until you can charge the battery to full from empty just as quick as you can fill up a tank of gas.

And it takes more energy to charge them than it would to just run off the fossil fuel (due to energy loss during transmission)...

But they can always use solar panels, and die of cancer from the toxic materials (which they have no plans for disposing of) before they die from globull warming, can't they???

Are we headed for a solar waste crisis? — Environmental Progress

How big of a problem is solar waste? Environmental Progress investigated the problem to see how the problem compared to the much more high-profile issue of nuclear waste. We found: Solar panels create 300 times more toxic waste per unit of energy than do nuclear power plants. If so

environmentalprogress.org

 

[martybegan]

I also had little fuel in my truck too sparse to attempt a run south.

Well, the ironic bright side is that unlike the deniers who probably had plenty of gas to flee with, you did your part in fighting climatechange by not having enough gas and not leaving a larger carbon footprint and that is what counts here.

Sadly most of our vehicles still run on fossil fuel.
If you can give me 80 grand, I'll opt for a super cool new Tesla.
Until then, my carbon footprint is quite small putting maybe 5k miles on my truck each year.
My home here in LC is modest - 1600 sf with a beautiful ocean view and energy efficient EVERYTHING.
I can give you my PayPal info if you'd like to send me money!

Electric vehicles will not replace ICE vehicles until you can charge the battery to full from empty just as quick as you can fill up a tank of gas.

And it takes more energy to charge them than it would to just run off the fossil fuel (due to energy loss during transmission)...

But they can always use solar panels, and die of cancer from the toxic materials (which they have no plans for disposing of) before they die from globull warming, can't they???

Are we headed for a solar waste crisis? — Environmental Progress

How big of a problem is solar waste? Environmental Progress investigated the problem to see how the problem compared to the much more high-profile issue of nuclear waste. We found: Solar panels create 300 times more toxic waste per unit of energy than do nuclear power plants. If so

environmentalprogress.org

I would have less issue with these technologies if they weren't going to be forced on us. I also agree the AGW types gloss over the negatives of renewable power.

 

[DrLove]

There is responsible forest management and irresponsible forest management. But nobody can tell me that 820 million acres of forest floors can be "raked" or kept clean in any manner. It is a physical impossibility.

There's hardly any rakes involved in systematic forest management. All my roommates in college (for some damn reason) were forest management. I visited them on the job in Idaho, Oregon, and Cali for years.. The main issue is ACCESS.. Leftist tree huggers wanted ZERO HUMAN FOOTPRINT in federal/state managed forests.. No fire trails -- no fire breaks -- no bridges over streams/rivers/gorges -- no removal of massive DIE OFF of vegetation/trees.. No disease mitigation, no "multi-use" partnerships for infrastructure. This is INSANE... And the building at the edges of parks and wilderness is way past "advice from experts"...

Here's an example of irresponsible forest management in Oregon. Companies like Weyerhaeuser who were responsible for clearcutting have - Partly due to environmental legislation - Seen then the wisdom of replanting many of these areas. And they do a pretty good job of thinning, with the planting of several seedlings in the empty spot left after taking out a tree.

Convenient photo.. Much like those tearful pics of mining operations BEFORE restoration.. Mt Saint Helens killed EVERYTHING on the downslope.. Filled lakes, ponds, valleys with unimaginable amounts of unremovable debris.. Ten years on -- Mother Nature was well on the way to "fixing that"..

If Weyerhauser OWNS the land -- it WILL be replanted. It's what you call "renewable" in the truer sense of the word. And sustainable..

For ME -- I trust folks like the Nature Conservancy that BUY the land and contract out the appropriate mgt or make deals with land owners to PRESERVE it themselves..

Much more effective then the Forestry and BLM auctioning off timber cuts.. In fact, in most polls, MORE people TRUST the Nature Conservancy far more for land mgt than the govt..

I have some forestry grad friends too. Humboldt State for two of 'em. I concur with most of your analysis, but believe that we are actually building roads and fire breaks. But they'd have been of little use in the fire we're still fighting near me. That baby jumped Highway 18 driven by 60-70 MPH winds and would have jumped 101 had the weather not changed.

But yes, my Dad was a card carrying Nature Conservancy member and leader down in SoCal. One of my favorite non-profits. They bought Santa Cruz Island (Channel Islands off coast of SoCal) which was a GREAT get. Some developer wanted to put a big fat amusement park there with frequent commercial boat stops and a little town there with tourist crap similar to Avalon on Catalina Island and that would have ruined it.

They do allow day visitors and have guided hiking tours with a National Park Ranger. Beyond that, it remains pretty much uncommercialized and pristine with an amazing array of wildlife. The Island Fox found here is unique to this island. No one really knows how it got there.

Santa Cruz Island

The largest of all eight Channel Islands, Santa Cruz Island is graced with a nearly unimaginable 60-mile stretch of virtually untouched California coastline.

www.nature.org

 

[DrLove]

Facebook (Russian likely) conspiracies all debunked by fire officials should not be repeated.
Just STOP it - Links provided earlier in thread.

Don't ever try to tell me what I'm ALLOWED to say!

I guarantee you'll lose that war!

I know you won't stop it. Conspiracy theories are about all Trumpublicans got these days. Say hello to the gang at your next Q meeting

 

[DrLove]

And yet again, your sources SUUUUUUCK!!

CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE

• Overall, we rate Watts Up with That a strong pseudoscience and conspiracy website based on the promotion of consistent human influenced climate denialism propaganda.

At least he named and cited his source. All you did was post a graphic and text, presumably from some site that you didn't even name or identify in any way, giving us no way to verify its credibility, and in fact, no basis on which to assume that it has any credibility,

The quoted text “…based on the promotion of consistent human influenced climate denialism propaganda…” seems to indicate that it is a source that is biased in favor of the “climate change/global warming” hoax, indicating that even if you did identify it, it would have no credibility except among ignorant cretins who buy into that scam.

It does help a bit, if you are attacking the credibility of another person or his cited sources, if in so doing, you can, yourself achieve some vestige of credibility comparable to that of the one you are attacking. Even for you, this is a rather spectacular fail.

If one consistency uses crap sources, it means they use those same crap sources to formulate their opinions.
Thus, their opinions tend to be crap.
I'll not click on Watts Up, Gateway Pundit, True Pundit, Breitbart, Infowars or any crap source.
Capisce?

 

[flacaltenn]

There is responsible forest management and irresponsible forest management. But nobody can tell me that 820 million acres of forest floors can be "raked" or kept clean in any manner. It is a physical impossibility.

There's hardly any rakes involved in systematic forest management. All my roommates in college (for some damn reason) were forest management. I visited them on the job in Idaho, Oregon, and Cali for years.. The main issue is ACCESS.. Leftist tree huggers wanted ZERO HUMAN FOOTPRINT in federal/state managed forests.. No fire trails -- no fire breaks -- no bridges over streams/rivers/gorges -- no removal of massive DIE OFF of vegetation/trees.. No disease mitigation, no "multi-use" partnerships for infrastructure. This is INSANE... And the building at the edges of parks and wilderness is way past "advice from experts"...

Here's an example of irresponsible forest management in Oregon. Companies like Weyerhaeuser who were responsible for clearcutting have - Partly due to environmental legislation - Seen then the wisdom of replanting many of these areas. And they do a pretty good job of thinning, with the planting of several seedlings in the empty spot left after taking out a tree.

Convenient photo.. Much like those tearful pics of mining operations BEFORE restoration.. Mt Saint Helens killed EVERYTHING on the downslope.. Filled lakes, ponds, valleys with unimaginable amounts of unremovable debris.. Ten years on -- Mother Nature was well on the way to "fixing that"..

If Weyerhauser OWNS the land -- it WILL be replanted. It's what you call "renewable" in the truer sense of the word. And sustainable..

For ME -- I trust folks like the Nature Conservancy that BUY the land and contract out the appropriate mgt or make deals with land owners to PRESERVE it themselves..

Much more effective then the Forestry and BLM auctioning off timber cuts.. In fact, in most polls, MORE people TRUST the Nature Conservancy far more for land mgt than the govt..

I have some forestry grad friends too. Humboldt State for two of 'em. I concur with most of your analysis, but believe that we are actually building roads and fire breaks. But they'd have been of little use in the fire we're still fighting near me. That baby jumped Highway 18 driven by 60-70 MPH winds and would have jumped 101 had the weather not changed.

But yes, my Dad was a card carrying Nature Conservancy member and leader down in SoCal. One of my favorite non-profits. They bought Santa Cruz Island (Channel Islands off coast of SoCal) which was a GREAT get. Some developer wanted to put a big fat amusement park there with frequent commercial boat stops and a little town there with tourist crap similar to Avalon on Catalina Island and that would have ruined it.

They do allow day visitors and have guided hiking tours with a National Park Ranger. Beyond that, it remains pretty much uncommercialized and pristine with an amazing array of wildlife. The Island Fox found here is unique to this island. No one really knows how it got there.

Santa Cruz Island

The largest of all eight Channel Islands, Santa Cruz Island is graced with a nearly unimaginable 60-mile stretch of virtually untouched California coastline.

www.nature.org

Amazing what you can do when you WORK WITH landowners/stakeholders instead of THREATENING THEM with laws, capricious enforcement and fines... Nature Conservancy is in my will even tho they believe all of Antarctica is gonna melt from a couple degC change in GLOBAL surface temperature..

Or you could just live in a WELL managed -- not DEAD BROKE state/county/city.. My county has over 15% of land in protection/trust.. With parks/open space and trails connected for 15 mile radius in Hillbilly Hollywood..

They're SMART here.. In Cali -- the tops of hills are all built out.. In the rainy season, I've seen down in Southern Socialist Republic of Cali -- folks at the top of the hills TARPING their yards. Forcing the 3 layers of folks below to tarp theirs as well.. HERE -- you cannot build out the tops of hilly lands. And nobody's griping -- especially the wildlife...

Can't allow human density to settle at the edges of fire prone (or even CENTERS) of fire prone areas if you're NOT GONNA thin, do controlled burns and manage the wild -- urban interface.. Not with a season that is this dry and winds prevailing at tropical storm levels.. Not with a BANKRUPT PGE that is FORCED to waste money on solar/wind and neglect their grid..

Just heard that at one of these fire epicenters -- there were over 300 trees per acre on ground that is fire safe at only about 100 per acre... WORSE if most of those trees are dead and down..

West coast govts are broke. Wanna deflect blame from themselves.. And what's more convenient than HIDING BEHIND GWarming? I'm an AVID conservationist.. But I know that every tree/shrub/insect/wildlife/fire/drought/flood problem is NOT wholly due to a 1DegC change in annual GLOBAL temperature in my lifetime..

In fact, the lattitudes of US contribute MUCH LESS to the Global Warming temperature anomaly than the polar and sub polar regions, That 1DegC change is NOWHERE NEAR UNIFORM on the globe..

 

[DrLove]

There is responsible forest management and irresponsible forest management. But nobody can tell me that 820 million acres of forest floors can be "raked" or kept clean in any manner. It is a physical impossibility.

There's hardly any rakes involved in systematic forest management. All my roommates in college (for some damn reason) were forest management. I visited them on the job in Idaho, Oregon, and Cali for years.. The main issue is ACCESS.. Leftist tree huggers wanted ZERO HUMAN FOOTPRINT in federal/state managed forests.. No fire trails -- no fire breaks -- no bridges over streams/rivers/gorges -- no removal of massive DIE OFF of vegetation/trees.. No disease mitigation, no "multi-use" partnerships for infrastructure. This is INSANE... And the building at the edges of parks and wilderness is way past "advice from experts"...

Here's an example of irresponsible forest management in Oregon. Companies like Weyerhaeuser who were responsible for clearcutting have - Partly due to environmental legislation - Seen then the wisdom of replanting many of these areas. And they do a pretty good job of thinning, with the planting of several seedlings in the empty spot left after taking out a tree.

Convenient photo.. Much like those tearful pics of mining operations BEFORE restoration.. Mt Saint Helens killed EVERYTHING on the downslope.. Filled lakes, ponds, valleys with unimaginable amounts of unremovable debris.. Ten years on -- Mother Nature was well on the way to "fixing that"..

If Weyerhauser OWNS the land -- it WILL be replanted. It's what you call "renewable" in the truer sense of the word. And sustainable..

For ME -- I trust folks like the Nature Conservancy that BUY the land and contract out the appropriate mgt or make deals with land owners to PRESERVE it themselves..

Much more effective then the Forestry and BLM auctioning off timber cuts.. In fact, in most polls, MORE people TRUST the Nature Conservancy far more for land mgt than the govt..

I have some forestry grad friends too. Humboldt State for two of 'em. I concur with most of your analysis, but believe that we are actually building roads and fire breaks. But they'd have been of little use in the fire we're still fighting near me. That baby jumped Highway 18 driven by 60-70 MPH winds and would have jumped 101 had the weather not changed.

But yes, my Dad was a card carrying Nature Conservancy member and leader down in SoCal. One of my favorite non-profits. They bought Santa Cruz Island (Channel Islands off coast of SoCal) which was a GREAT get. Some developer wanted to put a big fat amusement park there with frequent commercial boat stops and a little town there with tourist crap similar to Avalon on Catalina Island and that would have ruined it.

They do allow day visitors and have guided hiking tours with a National Park Ranger. Beyond that, it remains pretty much uncommercialized and pristine with an amazing array of wildlife. The Island Fox found here is unique to this island. No one really knows how it got there.

Santa Cruz Island

The largest of all eight Channel Islands, Santa Cruz Island is graced with a nearly unimaginable 60-mile stretch of virtually untouched California coastline.

www.nature.org

Amazing what you can do when you WORK WITH landowners/stakeholders instead of THREATENING THEM with laws, capricious enforcement and fines... Nature Conservancy is in my will even tho they believe all of Antarctica is gonna melt from a couple degC change in GLOBAL surface temperature..

Or you could just live in a WELL managed -- not DEAD BROKE state/county/city.. My county has over 15% of land in protection/trust.. With parks/open space and trails connected for 15 mile radius in Hillbilly Hollywood..

They're SMART here.. In Cali -- the tops of hills are all built out.. In the rainy season, I've seen down in Southern Socialist Republic of Cali -- folks at the top of the hills TARPING their yards. Forcing the 3 layers of folks below to tarp theirs as well.. HERE -- you cannot build out the tops of hilly lands. And nobody's griping -- especially the wildlife...

Can't allow human density to settle at the edges of fire prone (or even CENTERS) of fire prone areas if you're NOT GONNA thin, do controlled burns and manage the wild -- urban interface.. Not with a season that is this dry and winds prevailing at tropical storm levels.. Not with a BANKRUPT PGE that is FORCED to waste money on solar/wind and neglect their grid..

Just heard that at one of these fire epicenters -- there were over 300 trees per acre on ground that is fire safe at only about 100 per acre... WORSE if most of those trees are dead and down..

West coast govts are broke. Wanna deflect blame from themselves.. And what's more convenient than HIDING BEHIND GWarming? I'm an AVID conservationist.. But I know that every tree/shrub/insect/weather problem is NOT wholly due to a 1DegC change in annual GLOBAL temperature in my lifetime..

In fact, the lattitudes of US contribute MUCH LESS to the Global Warming temperature anomaly than the polar and sub polar regions, That 1DegC change is NOWHERE NEAR UNIFORM on the globe..

You make a lot of good points. And sometimes, that pisses me off ;-)
As for including Nature Conservancy in your will?
My Dad did also, to the tune of a hundred grand ..
And that pissed me off too for a little while, until I decided they were pretty damn awesome.
Now they're in MY will!