A multistory residential building partially collapsed in the South Florida

[AMart]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

 

[otto105]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

No, no it's not. This organization was founded to set green standards for building thru several means. It's not an industry trade association.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Yes, building don't collapse often in the USA maybe a gas furnace that would have exploded? here in France it is more frequent after a gas furnace exploded but the damage is not so important in my opinion?

The building has been sinking for years.

Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s, researchers say

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

I did auditing for these agencies, primarily AAMA, ASTM.....lots of these standards derive from GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS/CODES

Try to build a condo in Florida without using high-impact windows and see what happens

 

[AMart]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

I did auditing for these agencies, primarily AAMA, ASTM.....lots of these standards derive from GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS/CODES

Try to build a condo in Florida without using high-impact windows and see what happens

Well duh yeah codes have to be followed.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

I did auditing for these agencies, primarily AAMA, ASTM.....lots of these standards derive from GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS/CODES

Try to build a condo in Florida without using high-impact windows and see what happens

Well duh yeah codes have to be followed.

But how are they "ENFORCED"??

Why is this question so hard for you folks to answer

Are these codes enforced by the "invisible hand of the free market" or are they enforced by government's monopoly on force?

 

[Donald H]

I'm hearing that the FBI has been summoned to the collapsed condominium in Miami.


The FBI ....wow just wow

Anybody can confirm this?

The FBI is there. The idiots are already trying to pin the collapse on Trump.

Who is trying to pin this on Trump and how?

The collapse of the buildings can't be pinned directly onto Trump.
But the Republican/right's agenda of ignoring safety concernes and building codes is directly in sync with Trump's agenda.

Eg: Save money by eliminating regulations that would have protected those who lived in those buildings.

And what now for the future of all the other buildings in the vicinity that are showing foundation damage and sinking. Concrete foundations don't have cracks open up overnight.

This really could be another example of America's infrastructure chickens coming home. We'll have watch and listen closely for the cover up effort.

Maybe....still too early to tell....

Doubt there isn't one singular answer for this......

But hopefully this spawns better solutions

Somebody is going to say that the impending collapse was as plain as day, but oh what flak they will recieve for their honesty.

The cracks in the foundations must have been wide enough to throw a cat through.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The cracks in the foundations must have been wide enough to throw a cat through.

What inspired you to pair a pussy with cracks?

 

[AMart]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

I did auditing for these agencies, primarily AAMA, ASTM.....lots of these standards derive from GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS/CODES

Try to build a condo in Florida without using high-impact windows and see what happens

Well duh yeah codes have to be followed.

But how are they "ENFORCED"??

Why is this question so hard for you folks to answer

Are these codes enforced by the "invisible hand of the free market" or are they enforced by government's monopoly on force?

I am not a libertarian. If you are asking should industry self enforce code compliance with private agency vs. government agency IDK.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

Bullshit, name me one industry association that has standards higher than building codes. Also, under libertarian standards the owner of the condo building would simply require any tenants to assume his liability by having them sign such document to live there. So if the building collapses, they should have known better than to rent from him.

LOL every time I will own you.

The U.S. Green Building Council is committed to a sustainable, prosperous future through LEED, the leading program for green buildings and communities worldwide. Our vision is that buildings and communities will regenerate and sustain the health and vitality of all life within a generation. Our mission is to transform the way buildings and communities are designed, built, and operated, enabling an environmentally and socially responsible, healthy, and prosperous environment that improves the quality of life.

LEED rating system | U.S. Green Building Council

LEED, or Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, is the most widely used green building rating system. Available for virtually all buildings, communities and homes, LEED provides a framework to create healthy, efficient and cost-saving buildings.

www.usgbc.org

They created LEED, leadership in Energy and Environmental Design it goes way beyond standard government building codes.

Dude, the US Green Building Council isn't an industry association.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC) is a Washington, DC-based 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization committed to a prosperous and sustainable future for our nation through cost-efficient and energy-saving green buildings.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation.

The U.S. Green Building Council (USGBC), co-founded by Mike Italiano, David Gottfried and Rick Fedrizzi in 1993, is a private 501(c)3, membership-based non-profit organization that promotes sustainability in building design, construction, and operation. USGBC is best known for its development of the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) green building rating systems and its annual Greenbuild International Conference and Expo, the world’s largest conference and expo dedicated to green building. USGBC was one of eight national councils that helped found the World Green Building Council (WorldGBC). The current president and CEO is Mahesh Ramanujam who acquired this role in January 2017 after co-founder Rick Fedrizzi.

Through its partnership with the Green Business Certification Inc. (GBCI), USGBC offers a suite of LEED professional credentials that denote expertise in the field of green building. USGBC incentivizes LEED certification by awarding extra certification points to building projects completed with a LEED-certified professional on staff.



You "own" nothing.

It is an industry association that companies, corporations, individuals join and pay a membership fee. Like the American Institute of Architects. Like a gazillion other professional organizations that create their own professional standards.

I did auditing for these agencies, primarily AAMA, ASTM.....lots of these standards derive from GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS/CODES

Try to build a condo in Florida without using high-impact windows and see what happens

Well duh yeah codes have to be followed.

But how are they "ENFORCED"??

Why is this question so hard for you folks to answer

Are these codes enforced by the "invisible hand of the free market" or are they enforced by government's monopoly on force?

I am not a libertarian. If you are asking should industry self enforce code compliance with private agency vs. government agency IDK.

I am thinking you may not know what the term "monopoly of force" means.....



This is the reason I keep asking those who claim to be libertarian or people like you who spent the last 87 comments caping up for libertarians -- this one simple question.....how would they enforce any compliance, code, contract, court decision, etc???

 

[Dalia]

Video showing collapse. I saw a flash.

BREAKING: New video shows actual collapse of 12-story Condo overnight in Miami Beach [UPDATE: 99 PEOPLE MISSING]

A 12-story condo partially collapsed overnight in Miami Beach while people were undoubtedly sleeping. Rescue efforts are underway and thus far one person is dead, two people have been taken to the …

therightscoop.com

I think what what looks like a flash is the lights going out. There are some sparks too, from lots of wires shorting out.

[Unrelated additional info]:
There are reports of the underground parking garage flooding and the building shaking prior to the collapse. These are false. They are based upon what resident Barry Cohen reported to the media. His interview but has been mis-paraphrased at various websites. The garage flooding was observed after the collapse. That could be due to broken water pipes and/or ground water intrusion into the garage.

On a structural engineering discussion board, someone noted that garage columns are exposed to salty air, and they are often seen deteriorating in Florida apartment buildings.

Here is a picture of a gaping hole opening up in the ground-level parking deck, exposing the underground parking garage. I hope that is not a crack that I have drawn an arrow pointing out. Sure looks like one, though.

View attachment 505132

God bless the first responders.

Hello, thank you for the image because it show well the contrary that is been said .... I have this from a French site that explains:
The cause of the collapse of this 40-year-old tower was not immediately identified but local authorities reported that work was underway on the roof as well as other repairs.
Champlain Towers South had more than 130 apartments, of which about 80 were occupied. It had undergone various inspections recently, including due to the construction of an adjacent building, Surfside Commissioner Charles Kesl told local television channel WPLG Local 10.
'There were some cracks due to this project - minor cracks - that were simply patched up.
Nothing, as I understand it, would indicate that there was a structural problem that could lead to something as catastrophic,' he said.

French link : Miami : 100 personnes disparues dans l'effondrement d'un immeuble, la terrible vidéo

Bonjour, Dalia.

Yes, similar reporting...

A 2020 study from Florida International University found the Champlain Towers South sea-view condo development was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s because it sits on reclaimed wetlands.

Wdowinski said he found that Champlain Towers South was sinking at a rate of around 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s due to its position on wetlands but that rate could have slowed down or sped up since then.

However, the land's slow sinking alone would not have caused the building to collapse, he said.

Paper is here:

Local land subsidence in Miami Beach (FL) and Norfolk (VA) and its contribution to flooding hazard in coastal communities along the U.S. Atlantic coast

Increasing rate of sea level rise (SLR) along the US Atlantic coast has resulted in increasing flooding hazard in several coastal communities, includi…

www.sciencedirect.com

It has also been revealed that the tower had recently undergone construction work on its roof, sparking fears this may have piled on additional weight to the sinking structure.

Local officials have said the condo block was right in the middle of going through a recertification process required by Miami Dade building code - which dictates that buildings have to be re-certified every 40 years. The building was due to be recertified for the first time since its construction this year.

Kenneth Direktor, a lawyer for the Champlain Towers South Association, told The Miami Herald on Thursday that to prepare for the recertification process an engineer had been hired to plan 'structural and electrical' updates but that work hadn't started yet.

He told The New York Times that the building had been about to undergo 'extensive repairs for rusted steel and damaged concrete' but that he had seen nothing to suggest the collapse was related to issues identified in the engineering review.

The Miami Herald reported that Frank Morabito was the engineer retained by the Champlain towers but that he could not be reached for comment on Thursday.

Direktor told The Washington Post on Thursday that the building was 'thoroughly inspected' recently as part of the recertification process and that a report on the inspection was sent to town authorities.

He described the report's findings as 'fairly typical' for a building of its age and 'did not cast doubt on its structural integrity,' according to the outlet.

Surfside Mayor Charles W. Burkett said roof renovations were being done on the property but that they should not have contributed to the collapse.

He suggested that potential causes could be the result of the foundations being washed out or a sinkhole.
[ Hang on sloopy petro skye ]

However, Surfside Vice Mayor Tina Paul told The Washington Post on Thursday that Champlain Towers South passed a roof inspection on Wednesday - the day before the collapse.

Jeff Rose, a contractor whose parents live in the building, told the Miami Herald that he had done renovations for some of the condos and that work on the roof had started about six weeks ago.

He added that some concrete restoration work was also being done to fix old or damaged concrete but that the concrete work was not out of the ordinary.

'I didn't notice anything I haven't seen in many other buildings in South Florida,' Rose told the outlet.

However, an engineer who specializes in concrete repair projects told the Miami Herald that one potential structural flaw called 'concrete spalling' jumped out at him when he watched video of the collapse

The engineer, Greg Batista, described the flaw as 'concrete cancer' and said that it happens when salt water seeps into porous concrete causing steel rebar in the support beams to rust and expand - which can break the concrete and weaken the beams.

Surfside Commissioner Charles Kesl told Local 10 that there were also 'garage underground issues' found during various inspections recently relating to the recertification process.

'And, to my understanding, there were some cracks from that project - minor cracks - that were just patched up. Nothing, based on my understanding, to the magnitude that would indicate that there was a structural problem that could result in something so catastrophic,' Kesl said.

Kit Miyamoto, chair of the California Seismic Safety Commission also spoke to Anderson Cooper and said that Miami-Dade has actually good standards to examine buildings every year.

Miyamoto said it appears likely that corrosion was a culprit as the side of the building that collapsed was the side facing the ocean. Salt water could have gotten in and corroded the metal columns in the building.

If the soil is settling, that also could have affected the columns, as they get pulled in as the ground settles, Miyamoto said.

Here is video from inside the condo seconds before the collapse. It shows lots of concrete crumbling...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/6465523934211557000/640x360_MP4_6465523934211557000.mp4

Yes, this is what the French media was saying today it is hard to believe that in the USA a thing like that could happen ? 4 peoples are deads and a others 150 peoples are missing because this building was not proper take care of if this is the real cause of the collapse ?

 

[Dalia]

Video of actual collapse...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7628767855580265207/960x540_MP4_7628767855580265207.mp4

Thank you for the video...it's seem that it start to collapse from the roof ? A explosion ?

I think if you look closely, you will see that the collapse starts near where I have circled below - seems to have the most movement in the beginning. This picture is basically the first two frames of the video...

View attachment 505042

[ martybegan ]

When i watch the video i think i see this maybe ? the people been waking up by what is happening and openning a ligth before the building collapse at the far left window at the top ? i see more flash coming at the back of the building from the left .

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/vide...580265207/960x540_MP4_7628767855580265207.mp4

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

You spent the last 6 or 7 comments defending "Libertarianism" and speaking for "libertarians" only to say "I'm not a libertarian" when I ask you a simple question??

What libertarians, or libertarian policies are in effect in Miami? Or Florida for that matter?

You're arguing nonsense. Libertarians have ZERO to do with what happened.

 

[Turtlesoup]

I'm hearing that the FBI has been summoned to the collapsed condominium in Miami.


The FBI ....wow just wow

Anybody can confirm this?

The FBI is there. The idiots are already trying to pin the collapse on Trump.

Wouldn't it be prudent to have the FBI there no matter what?

Think some are reading too much in it. Broward Coward county is one big sink hole

Why would you want a corrupt organization like the FBI involved in this??

I hate to say but given all the corruption that the FBI has been involved in lately----I wouldn't cross them off the suspect list either.

 

[skye]

I'm hearing that the FBI has been summoned to the collapsed condominium in Miami.


The FBI ....wow just wow

Anybody can confirm this?

The FBI is there. The idiots are already trying to pin the collapse on Trump.

Wouldn't it be prudent to have the FBI there no matter what?

Think some are reading too much in it. Broward Coward county is one big sink hole

Why would you want a corrupt organization like the FBI involved in this??

I hate to say but given all the corruption that the FBI has been involved in lately----I wouldn't cross them off the suspect list either.

Same here. ^^^

Anyway, if the Stasi ....I mean....the FBI is involved, then we'll never know what happened ,good bad or whatever.

 

[skye]

By the way, just as a matter of interest.....Ivanka and Kushner live in a condo just a block away from where the building collapsed.

 

[otto105]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

You spent the last 6 or 7 comments defending "Libertarianism" and speaking for "libertarians" only to say "I'm not a libertarian" when I ask you a simple question??

What libertarians, or libertarian policies are in effect in Miami? Or Florida for that matter?

You're arguing nonsense. Libertarians have ZERO to do with what happened.

Yeah, and should never have any power over policy. But you fucking libertarian conservatives keep believing....

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

You spent the last 6 or 7 comments defending "Libertarianism" and speaking for "libertarians" only to say "I'm not a libertarian" when I ask you a simple question??

What libertarians, or libertarian policies are in effect in Miami? Or Florida for that matter?

You're arguing nonsense. Libertarians have ZERO to do with what happened.

Yeah, and should never have any power over policy. But you fucking libertarian conservatives keep believing....

I'm not a libertarian. Maybe you could call me a comservatarian, but I dont believe in open borders, legalizingcevery damn mind altering drug, legalizing abortion or prostitution.

 

[otto105]

Just look at these heroes risking their lives in an attempt to save complete strangers who may be trapped.

They are getting ready to attempt to drill through the roof of the parking garage, while standing in water...

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2021/06/24/7337056344606788873/640x360_MP4_7337056344606788873.mp4

Reportedly, building was known to be sinking...

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES'​

• Champlain Towers South in Surfside, Florida, was built in 1981 and hasn't been recertified since then
• Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University, did a study on the building last year
• He found that it had been sinking 2mm a year since the 1990s into the ground
• Miami Dade Building Code states buildings only have to be certified every 40 years
• The Champlain Towers South Association hired an engineer to review structural and electrical updates ahead of its first certification
• It was also in the process of re-roofing when the building partially collapsed on Thursday
• Officials have no idea what caused the building to collapse yet
• There are now fears the rest of it will collapse soon, further reducing the chances of finding any survivors
• One person is dead, with 99 others linked to the building still missing
• Bruce Masia, a local building manager, said the roof renovation will be looked at
• He asked whether it put any additional weight on the building that it couldn't withstand

Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981

Champlain Towers South was completed in 1981 but hasn't been updated significantly since then. There are 136 condos inside and most belong to first-time homeowners.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In this picture I previously posted, it shows the ground level has sunk about five or six feet. All of those white columns used to be underground in the parking garage below, and they now protrude through the ground level deck. The rebar has literally been ripped out of the ground level deck; you can see it hanging from column 72 on the left.

Sink holes crossed my mind

Same here. Unstable ground, with the building already noted to have been slowly sinking.
Florida is known for this problem with porous limestone and underground water issues.

Prayers to those still trapped in the rubble and their families....

Seen a couple of encouraging stories....like how a guy walking his dog nearby heard a cry for help and got the attention of rescuers who saved the person.....hopefully there are more of these stories...

As for causes......my guess would be that it's a sediment problem....since there are claims it has been sinking since the 90's.....I heard the land the condos were built on was reclaimed marsh.....

“When we measure subsidence or when we see movement of the buildings, it’s worth checking why it happens,” Wdowinski said. “We cannot say what is the reason for that from the satellite images but we can say there was movement here.”

FIU professor: Collapsed Surfside building showed signs of subsidence in ‘90s

The area where a building partially collapsed in Surfside, Fla. showed signs of land subsidence in the 1990s, according to space-based radar data analyzed by an FIU professor.

news.fiu.edu

I guess the reason I see some folks bringing up libertarianism is because libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes....they believe the "free market" will ultimately do the right thing......and if they don't -- and you die, your relatives can sue.....but since lots of libertarians don't believe in a monopoly of force to enforce building codes; I don't see how they think any civil court decisions would be enforced either...

That is a total fucking lie. Everyone believes in strong building codes.

oh yea??

Well who enforces these building codes??

Surely not the government...

Why Libertarians Reject Government Building Codes and Licensing

Think government licensing stops buildings from falling down, restaurants poisoning diners and people driving on the wrong side of the road? It doesn’t. You do.

discover.hubpages.com

From the article.
In a libertarian society everyone connected with construction, including people who buy, sell and live in buildings, will enforce the standards in their own self-interests.

Contractors who knowingly build shoddy structures that fall down and kill people will be sued into bankruptcy and, since there will be no shield law treating a corporation as a "fictional person" for contractors to hide behind they'll face the prospect of personal bankruptcy and prison time.

Self-interest.

Structural and electrical and plumbing and every other kind of inspector will be held accountable since they will be required by the building and insurance and lending industries to certify that standards have been met.

Self-interest.

Libertarians don't want shoddy construction and the erosion of building codes.

Who enforces building codes??

It's a simple question......

The libertarian argument as I said earlier is libertarians believe "the free market" will fix the problem....even tho there is no such thing as "the free market"....and yall also believe that no builders would cut corners or do shoddy work because of "self interests" -- reality says otherwise

so.....in your fantasy world of no monopolization of force.....when someone sues for shoddy construction.....who enforces that court decision?


I'll wait

You just moved the goalposts. You said "libertarians don't believe in federal or state building codes. Now you say who will enforce building codes.

Libertarians don't believe in the monolopy of force you moron...

So without the monopoly of force..how do you enforce building codes? You can't

You think people are just supposed to sue after their family dies in a fucked up building collapse...

So....when that family sues....who will enforce the settlement?

There is a reason you can't answer that question.....

it is the same reason there are over 90281727 different kinds of liberatians...because a new strain of libertarian is invented everytime their fantasy ideology gets challenged by reality...

I am not a libertarian when it comes to building codes issues. Go find a libertarian message forum to argue with people. You said libertarians don't believe in building codes. They do believe in codes and those codes should from within the industry and would likely surpass government codes. You can probably find a national association of barber shops who thinks they can write professional codes for their industry better than government.

You spent the last 6 or 7 comments defending "Libertarianism" and speaking for "libertarians" only to say "I'm not a libertarian" when I ask you a simple question??

What libertarians, or libertarian policies are in effect in Miami? Or Florida for that matter?

You're arguing nonsense. Libertarians have ZERO to do with what happened.

Yeah, and should never have any power over policy. But you fucking libertarian conservatives keep believing....

I'm not a libertarian. Maybe you could call me a comservatarian, but I dont believe in open borders, legalizingcevery damn mind altering drug, legalizing abortion or prostitution.

So your trans political then....

Got it.

you can’t compete in politics then.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Now Xi's people are blaming Gullible Warning