A Fresh Look at the Iraq War

[mudwhistle]

The Bush Admin. made some major mistakes regarding Iraq and none of them had anything to do with WMDs (which was a very reasonable and supported error).

1) They assumed that in terms of infrastructure Iraq in 2003 was about the same as Iraq in 1991.

In reality, after 12 years of sanctions, Hussein's horrendous mismanagement and outright theft, and occasional U.S. airstrikes, Iraq's infrastructure was teetering on the verge of collapse in 2003 and promptly collapsed in the aftermath of the invasion..

2) They assumed that Iraq socially was not that different from 1991 and would hold together fairly well even after the Sunni's were ousted.

Instead, an extra decade of Saddam's dictatorship had far sharpened internal hatreds and differences.

3) They severely misjudged the international opposition to the invasion which robbed it of a great deal of legitimacy both at home and abroad. The international opposition seemed to mainly be a reaction to the idea of "President George W. Bush leading it" rather than any real international standard.

4) They failed to build political support in the aftermath of the invasion when it became clear the U.S. was in for a long, hard occupation. This allowed President Obama to basically walk away from it and allow Iraq to plunge back into chaos.

They had trouble in the early days of the German occupation, but then again, we weren't dealing with a bunch of religious assholes back then.

We're used to dealing with civilized people. Not these cut-throat ragheads.

The beheading of Nick Berg.

 

[NYcarbineer]

In its own way the current VA scandal is a grim reminder of what the real cost of Iraq will be, over the long term, until Iraq veterans are no more.

So you hope they die, and die quickly?

We still have WWII and Korean veterans hanging around, as well as Vietnam, Grenada, and Somalia vets.

Wanna snuff them as well?

What is your problem?

 

[rdean]

Our media and our Democrats snatched defeat out of the mouth of victory.

They did it intentionally.

Had they ignored the war like they have since Obama took office Iraq would be different place today.

There would be a lot more dead Americans, dead Iraqi's and our country would be broke.

Republicans can't even say what a "win" would mean in Iraq. So far, women have to live in stuffy tents called Burkas, they can't go outside without a male escort, more than a million Christians have disappeared. And because of all the maimed, the Iraq debacle will end up costing up 4 to 6 trillion.

Read what Republicans think about Muslims. Right here on this board. And they want to tell Muslims how they should live? What a lot of nerve.

 

[healthmyths]

Iraq. Post mortem. No WMD. No connection to 9-11. Cost, a couple of trillion and counting. The lives of over 4000 of our sons and daughters. The maiming of tens of thousands of our sons and daughters.

What was gained for the US? Nothing.

1,260,000 children HAVE NOT STARVED if as you want, Saddam to be in power. He let these children starve did because HE didn't want to admit he had NO WMDs!
Fact...
After the end of the 1991 Persian Gulf War, those sanctions were extended and elaborated on, including linkage to removal of weapons of mass destruction (WMD), by Resolution 687. The sanctions banned all trade and financial resources except for medicine and "in humanitarian circumstances" foodstuffs, whose import into Iraq was tightly regulated.
Sanctions against Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Saddam was removed and 1.2 million children NOW alive!

But of course YOU SADDAM LOVERS wanted that dictator that today TODAY...
Which the below people would stone you for your attitude!
I was also in Iraqi Kurdistan, and wherever I went the reputation of the American senators preceded me.
Kurdish freedom. Nor could I compare Obama favorably to Bush; like the three amigos, most Iraqi Kurds prefer the muscle of a Republican in office.
"Obama is a good family man," a local reporter told me. "But I love Bush more. Bush killed Saddam." He shook his fist and said, "I love America!"
The Iraq War Was a Good Idea, If You Ask the Kurds - Jenna Krajeski - The Atlantic

FACT:
When Saddam was in power per person gross domestic product was $518...
Finally you of all people want to see 28 million people stay in a stone age economy where in 2003 under Saddam the per capita GDP was $518.
Per CIA world book Iraq's per capita GDP is $7,100 (2013 est.) A total increase of over 1,270% in 10 years or 127% a year.
GDP is growing faster then the USA!
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iz.html

See OLD FART... YOU don't give ANY proves! YOU make up shit! I truly would be embarrassed to write if I DIDN"T know what I'm writing about!
OLD FART.... WHERE WERE YOU when these democrats wanted BEFORE Bush Saddam removed???
YOU were so f...king smart why didn't YOU say something??
32 democrat quotes indicate even before GWB that Saddam was a threat!

"..deny Iraq the capacity to develop WMD".Bill Clinton,1998
"..most brutal dictators of Century", Biden,1998
"Iraq compliance with Resolution 687 becomes shell game"..Daschle 1998
"He will use those WMDs again,as he has ten times since 1983" ..Berger Clinton Ntl. Secur. Advr 1998
"posed by Iraq's refusal to end its WMD programs" Levin 1998
"Saddam has been engaged in development of WMDs which is a threat.."Pelosi 1998 WHERE'D SHE GET THIS INFORMATION BEFORE BUSH?
"Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building WMDS.."Albright 1999
"Saddam to refine delivery systems, that will threaten the US..."Graham 2001
"Saddam has ignored the mandate of the UN and is building WMDs and the means to deliver.." Levin 2002
"Iraq's search for WMDs ...will continue as long as Saddam's in power"..Gore 2002
"Saddam retains stockpiles of WMDS.."Byrd 2002
"..give President authority to use force..to disarm Saddam because an arsenal of WMDs..threat our security"..Kerry 2002
"..Unmistakable evidence Saddam developing nuclear weapons next 5 years.."Rockefeller 2002
"Violated over 11 years every UN resolution demanding disarming WMDs.."Waxman 2002
"He's given aid,comfort & sanctuary to al Qaeda members..and keep developing WMDs"..Hillary 2002
"Compelling evidence Saddam has WMDs production storage capacity.." Graham 2002
"Without a question, we need to disarm Saddam. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime .... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...."Kerry , Jan. 23. 2003.

 

[KNB]

You Teabaggers are so god-damned ******* delusional.

CURVEBALL LIED. BUSH LIED. THE CIA LIED. POWELL LIED. RUMSFELD LIED. CHENEY LIED.

THEY ******* LIED! I can give you links to the Bush administration's own paperwork which explains in black-and-white that they LIED, but you don't care.

**** you, Republicans. The Iraq war was a ******* LIE and you OWN IT.

**** you to death. Die, old ******* piece of shit Republicans. DIE for your war crimes. DIE and get off of our planet. You all need to hang and die.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Articles talking about the mountain of money wasted on the “Iraq War” are becoming more and more common, and they are written from both sides of the political divide.

Regardless of the dollar amount “wasted” (and more importantly, the number of casualties), the war constituted a gigantic miscalculation on the part of both the President (Bush 43) and the then-Congress, for which they should all (the ones who promoted it and voted for it) be tarred and feathered.

In essence, this war was fought to (1) topple Saddam’s regime, because it was perceived internationally as a source of terrorism and needless strife, and (2) capture and destroy his caches of WMD’s. There are those who say that the war was justified by the Bush43 Administration as retaliation for 9/11, but I never read anything from the Administration that made that connection overtly. Saddam was simply considered a Bad Actor who had to be deposed. Hell, there was even evidence that he was pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

Two major underlying assumptions of the Administration both proved to be disastrously false: First, that Saddam had WMD’s, and second, that the population of Iraq would welcome the American emancipators with open arms, then peacefully form a government that would be an example to the Islamic world that Islam and “democracy” were not incompatible. Both of these assumptions were based on information that was considered reliable, but proved otherwise. Perversely, Saddam later admitted after his capture that he intentionally maintained the fiction of his WMD arsenal, to keep Iran from launching another invasion. The idea that anyone would act so catastrophically against his own interests was not even imaginable to the Administration, which is why it never crossed their minds that Saddam might actually be faking his possession of chemical and biological weapons. (Of course, there are those who say that the WMD’s were moved to Syria and are still there).

And as for the optimistic assessment of the aftermath of our invasion, the Administration simply chose to listen to Iraqi expats who, to use the crude vernacular, were talking out of their asses.

But what are “we” really liable for? People both here and abroad like to lay the blame for the four thousand or so American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths on the U.S. (and particularly Bush43), but this is bullshit.

We never intended to “conquer” Iraq, or set it up as a colony. And no cogent adult believes that we intended to “steal their oil” (Democrats are generally not “cogent adults” for this purpose). We had no interest in killing Iraqi’s whether they be Sunni, Shia, or Kurd (or Christian). In fact, we were fully prepared to rebuild the whole country after Saddam was gone – infrastructure, schools, utilities, everything – at our own expense. We WANTED to do that! Our only interest in oil was in maximizing their production, so that they could become self-sustaining and the global market prices would float downward.

The killings of Iraqi civilians were not America’s doing (except in rare cases of “collateral damage”), but rather Iraqi’s killing one another because many factions were simply unwilling to accede to civilized power sharing. And this is still the case today.

But this isn’t our fault. It’s theirs. They own it. They own essentially all of the bloodshed after the American invasion, because it is not what we intended or planned for. People who blame these deaths on "America" or "Bush" or Republicans are either stupid or ignorant. We are the Good Guys. We tried to make things better, but were foiled by a population too backward and ignorant to accept our assistance.

Some nations need a Strongman, and we are not the good guys in this case. The good guys never go to war, unless they absolutely have to, and we didn't have to. The blood, all of it, is on our hands this time.

 

[1776]

1) The intel from the CIA and Brits showed Saddam was doing strange things in the desert with barrels, etc.

2) The border with Syria was porous and not monitored so Saddam was able to move whatever he wanted to Syria for later.

3) Saddam had spies on the IAEA team that would alert him to where they would inspect days/weeks in advance and Saddam just so happened to always dig up and move stuff from those sites in advance.

4) Saddam would stall IAEA inspection requests until he could move stuff from the sites or until US airstrikes convinced him to comply with the UN directives.

5) Saddam was supporting Islamic terrorists blowing up civilians inside Israel and he took in wounded terrorists from the war in Afghanistan.

Saddam was in violation of UN resolutions, Saddam hid and moved WMDs to Syria and Saddam was supporting Islamic terrorism.

End of debate.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

End of debate.

Debate never ends for wars we lose, it usually doesn't end for those we win either.

 

[1776]

Dumbfuck.....we didn't lose the Iraq "war." Obama lost Iraq later....

End of debate.

Debate never ends for wars we lose, it usually doesn't end for those we win either.

 

[Meathead]

Our media and our Democrats snatched defeat out of the mouth of victory.

They did it intentionally.

Had they ignored the war like they have since Obama took office Iraq would be different place today.

There would be a lot more dead Americans, dead Iraqi's and our country would be broke.

Republicans can't even say what a "win" would mean in Iraq. So far, women have to live in stuffy tents called Burkas, they can't go outside without a male escort, more than a million Christians have disappeared. And because of all the maimed, the Iraq debacle will end up costing up 4 to 6 trillion.

Read what Republicans think about Muslims. Right here on this board. And they want to tell Muslims how they should live? What a lot of nerve.

With the Burkas and women bit are talking about Iraq or Afghanistan? If it's the former, than you are even more ill-informed than I previously thought.

 

[deltex1]

Articles talking about the mountain of money wasted on the “Iraq War” are becoming more and more common, and they are written from both sides of the political divide.

Regardless of the dollar amount “wasted” (and more importantly, the number of casualties), the war constituted a gigantic miscalculation on the part of both the President (Bush 43) and the then-Congress, for which they should all (the ones who promoted it and voted for it) be tarred and feathered.

In essence, this war was fought to (1) topple Saddam’s regime, because it was perceived internationally as a source of terrorism and needless strife, and (2) capture and destroy his caches of WMD’s. There are those who say that the war was justified by the Bush43 Administration as retaliation for 9/11, but I never read anything from the Administration that made that connection overtly. Saddam was simply considered a Bad Actor who had to be deposed. Hell, there was even evidence that he was pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

Two major underlying assumptions of the Administration both proved to be disastrously false: First, that Saddam had WMD’s, and second, that the population of Iraq would welcome the American emancipators with open arms, then peacefully form a government that would be an example to the Islamic world that Islam and “democracy” were not incompatible. Both of these assumptions were based on information that was considered reliable, but proved otherwise. Perversely, Saddam later admitted after his capture that he intentionally maintained the fiction of his WMD arsenal, to keep Iran from launching another invasion. The idea that anyone would act so catastrophically against his own interests was not even imaginable to the Administration, which is why it never crossed their minds that Saddam might actually be faking his possession of chemical and biological weapons. (Of course, there are those who say that the WMD’s were moved to Syria and are still there).

And as for the optimistic assessment of the aftermath of our invasion, the Administration simply chose to listen to Iraqi expats who, to use the crude vernacular, were talking out of their asses.

But what are “we” really liable for? People both here and abroad like to lay the blame for the four thousand or so American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths on the U.S. (and particularly Bush43), but this is bullshit.

We never intended to “conquer” Iraq, or set it up as a colony. And no cogent adult believes that we intended to “steal their oil” (Democrats are generally not “cogent adults” for this purpose). We had no interest in killing Iraqi’s whether they be Sunni, Shia, or Kurd (or Christian). In fact, we were fully prepared to rebuild the whole country after Saddam was gone – infrastructure, schools, utilities, everything – at our own expense. We WANTED to do that! Our only interest in oil was in maximizing their production, so that they could become self-sustaining and the global market prices would float downward.

The killings of Iraqi civilians were not America’s doing (except in rare cases of “collateral damage”), but rather Iraqi’s killing one another because many factions were simply unwilling to accede to civilized power sharing. And this is still the case today.

But this isn’t our fault. It’s theirs. They own it. They own essentially all of the bloodshed after the American invasion, because it is not what we intended or planned for. People who blame these deaths on "America" or "Bush" or Republicans are either stupid or ignorant. We are the Good Guys. We tried to make things better, but were foiled by a population too backward and ignorant to accept our assistance.

It's okay to believe that if it helps you to sleep.

We don't understand Muslims anymore than we understand Asians, Canadians, Mexicans or Russians. Nor do they understand us. The only lesson is that if they **** with us in any serious way, we deal with them in a serious way...a way by which they learn a lifelong lesson. Don't **** with America.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Don't **** with America.

Bin Laden did, and it worked out great for him. We did exactly as he expected we would, we start a war with the Muslims of the world.

But you are right in saying that we are the big dog who blows your house up if your kid's soccer ball takes out our flowerbed. Most people know that, it's why they hate us.

 

[georgephillip]

Articles talking about the mountain of money wasted on the “Iraq War” are becoming more and more common, and they are written from both sides of the political divide.

Regardless of the dollar amount “wasted” (and more importantly, the number of casualties), the war constituted a gigantic miscalculation on the part of both the President (Bush 43) and the then-Congress, for which they should all (the ones who promoted it and voted for it) be tarred and feathered.

In essence, this war was fought to (1) topple Saddam’s regime, because it was perceived internationally as a source of terrorism and needless strife, and (2) capture and destroy his caches of WMD’s. There are those who say that the war was justified by the Bush43 Administration as retaliation for 9/11, but I never read anything from the Administration that made that connection overtly. Saddam was simply considered a Bad Actor who had to be deposed. Hell, there was even evidence that he was pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

Two major underlying assumptions of the Administration both proved to be disastrously false: First, that Saddam had WMD’s, and second, that the population of Iraq would welcome the American emancipators with open arms, then peacefully form a government that would be an example to the Islamic world that Islam and “democracy” were not incompatible. Both of these assumptions were based on information that was considered reliable, but proved otherwise. Perversely, Saddam later admitted after his capture that he intentionally maintained the fiction of his WMD arsenal, to keep Iran from launching another invasion. The idea that anyone would act so catastrophically against his own interests was not even imaginable to the Administration, which is why it never crossed their minds that Saddam might actually be faking his possession of chemical and biological weapons. (Of course, there are those who say that the WMD’s were moved to Syria and are still there).

And as for the optimistic assessment of the aftermath of our invasion, the Administration simply chose to listen to Iraqi expats who, to use the crude vernacular, were talking out of their asses.

But what are “we” really liable for? People both here and abroad like to lay the blame for the four thousand or so American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths on the U.S. (and particularly Bush43), but this is bullshit.

We never intended to “conquer” Iraq, or set it up as a colony. And no cogent adult believes that we intended to “steal their oil” (Democrats are generally not “cogent adults” for this purpose). We had no interest in killing Iraqi’s whether they be Sunni, Shia, or Kurd (or Christian). In fact, we were fully prepared to rebuild the whole country after Saddam was gone – infrastructure, schools, utilities, everything – at our own expense. We WANTED to do that! Our only interest in oil was in maximizing their production, so that they could become self-sustaining and the global market prices would float downward.

The killings of Iraqi civilians were not America’s doing (except in rare cases of “collateral damage”), but rather Iraqi’s killing one another because many factions were simply unwilling to accede to civilized power sharing. And this is still the case today.

But this isn’t our fault. It’s theirs. They own it. They own essentially all of the bloodshed after the American invasion, because it is not what we intended or planned for. People who blame these deaths on "America" or "Bush" or Republicans are either stupid or ignorant. We are the Good Guys. We tried to make things better, but were foiled by a population too backward and ignorant to accept our assistance.

It's okay to believe that if it helps you to sleep.

We don't understand Muslims anymore than we understand Asians, Canadians, Mexicans or Russians. Nor do they understand us. The only lesson is that if they **** with us in any serious way, we deal with them in a serious way...a way by which they learn a lifelong lesson. Don't **** with America.

Mexicans and Canadians are Americans and neither is confused with the greatest purveyor of violence in the world.

The US should stop ******* with the rest of the world.